Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Makabreska]

Putting BFA in the same box as SL is rediculous. BFA was not great, but OK. After they fixed the issues with azerite gear, everything was fine. 8.2 is still the most recent best patch.

Ohohohoho people were speaking VERY differently about that period, with endless grind of Azerite gear, Essences and Benthic gear with sockets. Also I saw so many complaints on how crappy Nazjatar looked. Bfa as a whole was ridiculously panned, and still is to this day.

But I don't care, was my fav expansion anyway.

[Varodoc]

Don't assume. It was 3 expansion plots forced into 1, poorly developed mess. It also had a downgraded version of the Artifact system, even WORSE Mythic+ BS, the faction war and warfronts were barely expanded on, and the worst part of it all? Corrupted gear...

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Also, why is your WoW character a lvl 11 Human, Varo? Surely that's an alt, right?

I'm European, but we can't post on the US forums, so we have to make alts on trial accounts.

And I don't know if you are aware of this, but Sl was such a dumpster-fire that they straight up mentioned it at the Share-holders' meeting that it was a disaster.

But if you were to ask Me if I wanted Shadowlands to be retconned, I'd tell you: No. Sylvanas had to go.

Enjoy taking quests from Queen Calia.

[Dracullus]

Ohohohoho people were speaking VERY differently about that period, with endless grind of Azerite gear, Essences and Benthic gear with sockets. Also I saw so many complaints on how crappy Nazjatar looked. Bfa as a whole was ridiculously panned, and still is to this day.

But I don't care, was my fav expansion anyway.

It begins. 4 years passed and BfA is good now. Like clockwork.

[Lady Atia]

Putting BFA in the same box as SL is rediculous. BFA was not great, but OK. After they fixed the issues with azerite gear, everything was fine. 8.2 is still the most recent best patch.

Lol no. BfA is the worst expansion, even WoD was better than that shit. Shadowlands was actually great after they fixed the initial covenant bullshit. Also the content draught didn't help either - if we had shorter patches it would have been on par with Legion or MoP.

[Cheezits]

It begins. 4 years passed and BfA is good now. Like clockwork.

I also liked the expansion but I recognize that the mass majority of players hated it, and the community was the worst it's ever been (SL had a huge dropoff but people just didn't play vs playing while being outraged all the time).

Also some devs outrighted hated the playerbase on social media. It wasn't a good time. Social media of that era was a mess that trickled into WoW as well.

[Joshuaj]

I'm European, but we can't post on the US forums, so we have to make alts on trial accounts.

And I don't know if you are aware of this, but Sl was such a dumpster-fire that they straight up mentioned it at the Share-holders' meeting that it was a disaster.

But if you were to ask Me if I wanted Shadowlands to be retconned, I'd tell you: No. Sylvanas had to go.

Enjoy taking quests from Queen Calia.

Ah. Also, I'm a Human Ret Pally. The Horde can keep her. Also, they mentioned that BFA and WoD were disasters as well, openly so loool

SL wasn't much different in comparison

[Dracullus]

I also liked the expansion but I recognize that the mass majority of players hated it, and the community was the worst it's ever been (SL had a huge dropoff but people just didn't play vs playing while being outraged all the time).

I tell you a secret. If you like WoW, there is pretty good chance you will enjoy every single expansion despite its flaws.

Btw, subscriber graph from last years show that low point of BfA was lower than low point of SL. Call it even, cause part of SL subs was that m-a-s-s-i-v-e part community subing just for late TBC. So it's not that black and white.

[Khaza-R]

It begins. 4 years passed and BfA is good now. Like clockwork.

Tbf, A lot of people griped on BfA but then SL was even worse in many aspects so people softened on the expansion. It didn't necessarily even take 4 years.

Personally, I find BfA more like Cataclysm. Very polarizing. With parts of it I really loved and others I really hated.

Btw, subscriber graph from last years show that low point of BfA was lower than low point of SL. Call it even, cause part of SL subs was that m-a-s-s-i-v-e part community subing just for late TBC. So it's not that black and white.

Yeah but BfA didn't have Classic numbers mixed in at that point so no, they aren't comparible dips.

[Cheezits]

I tell you a secret. If you like WoW, there is pretty good chance you will enjoy every single expansion despite its flaws.

Btw, subscriber graph from last years show that low point of BfA was lower than low point of SL. Call it even, cause part of SL subs was that m-a-s-s-i-v-e part community subing just for late TBC. So it's not that black and white.

That checks out as SL had that "hail mary" second half from the devs as well. The Helfs really saved things (to the point they probably inspired Midnight)

[micwini]

It begins. 4 years passed and BfA is good now. Like clockwork.

I found BFA to be good even while current. Most complaints were fixed early and the other stuff was mostly issues outside of the game/nitpicking. And.... the main storyline was meh.
BFA was greatly hated by a vocal minority(forums, reddit, twotter) for having the same systems as the prior expansion which everyone praised for some reason. Replace legionaries with azerite armor and its basically the exact same expansion.

The opposite is true for DF: Praise among this same vocal minority, but the silent majority hasnt played much. There is a reason why retention is higher: The overall player count is lower.
Now that DF is almost over: BFA, for all its faults, was better than DF.

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Tbf, A lot of people griped on BfA but then SL was even worse in many aspects so people softened on the expansion. It didn't necessarily even take 4 years.

Personally, I find BfA more like Cataclysm. Very polarizing. With parts of it I really loved and others I really hated.



Yeah but BfA didn't have Classic numbers mixed in at that point so no, they aren't comparible dips.

Yep, BFA had a lower dip, but this was before classic. SL was only slightly above while having classic combined in those numbers as well. It is obvious that for the main game SL is by far the lowest point in the game ever. And that with a pandamic raging that kept people homebound, looking for something to do.
I think SL was worse than WoD. WoD didnt have enough content, but what it had was mostly good.

[Cheezits]

While it's clear that SL was bad enough for the devs to formally admit so in a press conference, I think it's interesting that both DF and TWW are rather small expansions. Could just because of Microsoft leverage but you'd think if the game was really in such a bad state (and OW2 and Diablo 4 are in worse states) there would be a bigger expansion NOW, and not later.

I do think TWS was announced because TWW was not "good enough" on its own, but still, it's small.

[Makabreska]

I found BFA to be good even while current. Most complaints were fixed early and the other stuff was mostly issues outside of the game/nitpicking. And.... the main storyline was meh.
BFA was greatly hated by a vocal minority(forums, reddit, twotter) for having the same systems as the prior expansion which everyone praised for some reason. Replace legionaries with azerite armor and its basically the exact same expansion.

This is really not true. People were complaining, because BfA was an absolute culmination of borrowed powers grind:
- Azerite gear, usually had to grind different set for each spec
- Essences - some of most popular Essences had ridiculous grind requirements (Blood of the Enemy rank 3 - 40k honor farmed), and they were NOT account shared.
- 8.2 Benthic gear for sockets, a noticeable power increase
- 8.3 Corruption gear - lots of grinding for highest rank, combined with legendary cloak lvl up

It was not vocal minority that complained about all of this. Each week I saw posts on Reddit begging Blizz to make Essences account-wide. Only patch 8.3 introduced a vendor that sold them, along with Corrupted gear. But of course, you had to grind the unified currency. Also, vendor offer was on a three weeks rotation.

BfA was definitely THE MOST grindy expansion in terms of player power. It is not a coincidence that SL greatly reduced the grind.

[Dracullus]

I think it's interesting that both DF and TWW are rather small expansions.

*looking at Dragon Isles content, 2 big patch zones in single expansion and DFs 9 patches* I wonder how many years it will take for you guys to accept that raids are not only thing to measure expansion size. And Blizzard prefer to make more world content instead of tier 0 raid.

And I won't argue about it for 41235 time, I accepted you just not ready yet.

BfA was definitely THE MOST grindy expansion in terms of player power.

I think you forgot about some green boy. Especially first half.

[Makorus]

This is really not true. People were complaining, because BfA was an absolute culmination of borrowed powers grind:
- Azerite gear, usually had to grind different set for each spec
- Essences - some of most popular Essences had ridiculous grind requirements (Blood of the Enemy rank 3 - 40k honor farmed), and they were NOT account shared.
- 8.2 Benthic gear for sockets, a noticeable power increase
- 8.3 Corruption gear - lots of grinding for highest rank, combined with legendary cloak lvl up

It was not vocal minority that complained about all of this. Each week I saw posts on Reddit begging Blizz to make Essences account-wide. Only patch 8.3 introduced a vendor that sold them, along with Corrupted gear. But of course, you had to grind the unified currency. Also, vendor offer was on a three weeks rotation.

BfA was definitely THE MOST grindy expansion in terms of player power. It is not a coincidence that SL greatly reduced the grind.

It's not even that you had to grind a different set for each spec, if you got a piece from Normal, and then Heroic, you might not have been able to unlock all the Azerite powers.

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*looking at Dragon Isles content, 2 big patch zones in single expansion and DFs 9 patches* I wonder how many years it will take for you guys to accept that raids are not only thing to measure expansion size. And Blizzard prefer to make more world content instead of tier 0 raid.

And I won't argue about it for 41235 time, I accepted you just not ready yet.

Raids (and to a lesser extent of M+ even though lately dungeon design has been a bit shit) is the only thing Blizzard truly excels at, and is the only thing no other MMO offers, really.

Yeah, DF had loads of world content, but how much of it was actually... fun? How much of it would you do if there wasn't a reward tied behind it? Did anyone actually enjoy Dragonbane Keep after the third time? Did anyone actually enjoy Superbloom?

DF World Events were quantity over quality, and while I haven't looked extensively at the TWW, they do seem better.

[Reive]

dragonflight was the worst expansion for me right after wod. content was really shallow and the vibe was completely off.

[Dracullus]

Yeah, DF had loads of world content, but how much of it was actually... fun?

For me?

Events: Soup, hunts, forbidden reach door place, sniffing, time rifts, maaybe researches but that's a stretch. Archives/siege fun once, then meh. Superbloom painfully mediocre. Fyrrak straight up garbage.

Thing that seems to be forgotten - mystery hunt last year. Very fun, especially when you find out clues on your own.

Huge amount of story content on launch (whole first week I was just questing) and patches - and most of them are enjoyable side stories not harmed by Alextrasza lame beam.

Also I liked they toned down rares madness from SL where on every corner there was some 1% drop for mount/pet/toy.

Renown system for reps. Small stretch, cause technically SL introduced that.

As for zones, really enjoyed 10.0 Wrathion hub and 10.0.7 Forbidden Reach. Hated design of Zaralek (beside events). Liked Emerald Dream (it just didn't have anything that really stand out).

That's all I remember, a lot happened so I could forgot about some things already.

Oh, dragonriding races, you see already forgot about 1 thing.

So yeah, summing up: DF world content vs past expansion - not even a competition. But still a ton room to improve, as world content for max level was always weakest part of WoW.

[Jolly Roger]

Less content for the same price, wheee

fewer story chapters but much much more side quests

[Alanar]

That's just it: it's not a theory. It's never been a theory. It is one poster who regurgitates the same baseless headcanon about a character solely based on personal reasons of not liking that character, due to said character being portrayed as... *wait for it*... a "toxic, white male." BaumanKing's words-- not anyone else's..

Headbutting back against nonsense should be had, and it will continue. You defending it and writing it off as "it's just a theory" is, quite frankly, also nonsense.



Another plausible theory is that you are personally offended by users criticizing another user over this. You aren't coming to the rescue of anyone, no matter how you think you are.

As I said before, which was the theory about is that I can imagine Turalyon being swayed by the light to much, but in the end it was mostly about the Light itself and how it interacted.., but none of that weird back story that seems to be one and the same now. I don't even like these traits/topics to be brought in wow in the first place, but that's a different thing.

You also seem to have the wrong person in front of ya, if you believe I am coming to the rescue. Trust me, no really, I am truly not offended by these words, nor does it make any sense. I'l help you out of that so called plausible theory you came up with and say, it doesn't fit my character.
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It’s a head canon born of pure misunderstanding of a character so yes not only people don’t like it and it should be as well fought. If you tell me Red is Blue when it is Red, people should fight that lie and correct it

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Dont take it personal, but I am just finding most responses to the topic to be super weird in general. Also, what mis understanding? Blizz can go any route with these characters how they please. There is absolutely no reason to fight this either. See, I am kinda w/e on that, but I can imagine imsomething like that down the line. I said the same thing about Alleria years ago and still do, which was debated as well with things like: It doesnt fit her character. Idk how strong that reasoning is nowadays tbh.

To give you some idea what I meant... I remember the topic being brought up, back in Legion. People talked about the eye color change of Turalyon when Xe'ra became whole again. Or that Illidan was forced into the light. It actually wasnt really about Turalyon, but about the light and how we saw a different side. Eventually the forum here decided, the eye color change, suddenly was just a gaze over hes eyes and Xe'ra had to because she saw no other option. Questionable imo. After that came the whole Yrel and her army stuff.

Personally I saw Turalyon before as just a puppet, now I am not so sure. He has had no further story afterwards to think more of it.

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No. It's "I don't like this approach, because Bauman tries to force it on every step in a batshit crazy way". Have you seen his reasoning? He keeps claiming, that Turalyon is a problematic, toxic, white male, dangerous character who keeps his queer wife in an unhappy relationship. And all of this, because dude dared to be wary of inviting Dracthyr to SW at the start of Dragonflight.

No I actually havent..

Well tbh, the theory wasnt about him specifcally, but about the light and him being a puppet. But it seems..it basically became something completely differnt because of said person? Got that right? Because, there never was much going on there with while male is bad bs and what queer wife?

Tbh I hate that we have to deal with all these topics , what a weird time we live in.

[Eldryth]

You seem to have the wrong person in front of ya, if you believe I am coming to the rescue. Trust me, I am truly not offended by these words. In the bin with that theory I would say.

All I said before, which was? the theory about is that I can imagine Turalyon being swayed by the light to much. I still do, but none of that weird back story that seems to be one and the same now. I dont even like these traits/topics to be brought in wow in the first place, but thats a differnt thing.

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Thats random to call some people fraunds out of the blue. I dont even know them myself. But it seems you do.

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Dont take it personal, but I am just finding most responses to the topic to be super weird in general. Also, what mis understanding? Blizz can go any route with these characters how they please. There is absolutely no reason to fight this either. See, I am kinda w/e on that, but I can imagine imsomething like that down the line. I said the same thing about Alleria years ago and still do, which was debated as well with things like: It doesnt fit her character. Idk how strong that reasoning is nowadays tbh.

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No I actually havent..

Well tbh, the theory that has been a thing for years, basically became something completely differnt because of said person? Got that right? Because, there never was much going on there with while male is bad bs and what queer wife?

Tbh I hate that we have to deal with all these topics , what a weird time we live in.

Again, we've all seen beloved characters be disasterously and abruptly changed into completely characters so they can be used as a villain. It goes terribly every time. So, given that this idea goes so strongly against Turalyon's past and current characterization, strong opposition is to be expected- nobody likes those extreme character derailments.

And yes, I've seen it get brought up for years, but that doesn't make it fitting. There's always people who aren't familiar with characters and make suggestions that don't make any sense. I mean, there were always people who thought Sylvanas cared about the Forsaken despite her inner monologue explicitly spelling out that she only saw them as weapons, and then later as meat shields to protect her, once Arthas was gone and she no longer needed revenge. Those misunderstandings made it no less jarring when she suddenly did care in BFA. And then didn't care again at the end of BFA. And then cared again at the end of Shadowlands. That's the kind of inconsistent characterization you're asking for. Of course people are strongly against it happening again, after seeing past disasters like this and Kael'thas.

[Alanar]

Again, we've all seen beloved characters be disasterously and abruptly changed into completely characters so they can be used as a villain. It goes terribly every time. So, given that this idea goes so strongly against Turalyon's past and current characterization, strong opposition is to be expected- nobody likes those extreme character derailments.

And yes, I've seen it get brought up for years, but that doesn't make it fitting. There's always people who aren't familiar with characters and make suggestions that don't make any sense. I mean, there were always people who thought Sylvanas cared about the Forsaken despite her inner monologue explicitly spelling out that she only saw them as weapons, and then later as meat shields to protect her, once Arthas was gone and she no longer needed revenge. Those misunderstandings made it no less jarring when she suddenly did care in BFA. And then didn't care again at the end of BFA. And then cared again at the end of Shadowlands. That's the kind of inconsistent characterization you're asking for. Of course people are strongly against it happening again, after seeing past disasters like this and Kael'thas.

I can agree, with the times how beloved characters get ruined, with certain takes, Sure that sadly happens. Also, don't get me wrong, I have seen people saying how they liked how Sylvanas ended up. Despite what many people here say and I agree with as well.. you/we are still dealing with different opinions. Kael'thas is famous on that route, because he was a favorite coming straight out of warcraft 3, (personal favorite as well) and suddenly he ended up being a villain. That didn't fit hes character, but it did happen. They are more carefull now.. or atleast they tie it into a story. BC was just weird in so many ways.

With it being brought up, it was mostly the way the Light interacted, that is were it all came from, with that and how Turalyon is so light devoted, making him the perfect puppet. For example: Before Yrel showed up with her Light Army in a destructive way, was it fitting for her?