Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Joshuaj]

Except thats pretty much bullshit. Again, give me one official source that confirms that in any way.



Now this is kinda funny, bc the only source for your claims was always that one EVEN MORE OUTDATED dev interview haha. Thats the only source you managed to find so far, and its older and thus more outdated than the interview that said Eternal Ones are around titan keeper level. So, again, got any other source besides that?

On the other hand, the indications that the Eternal Ones arent even close to the titans are...pretty much everywhere in the game.

Youre just doing what youre pretty much always doing - basing your "arguments" on how you WANT things in the lore to be, instead of what was actually shown.

There are lots of interviews post Shadowlands launch that describe the Eternal Ones as being Titan level. Try again.

[Houle]

There are lots of interviews post Shadowlands launch that describe the Eternal Ones as being Titan level. Try again.

Link even a single one. You make the claim, you provide the source for said claim. Try again.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

There are lots of interviews post Shadowlands launch that describe the Eternal Ones as being Titan level. Try again.

Such dishonesty.
This claim has been debunked 100 times over, and you personally have participated in arguments where you've been shut down over this. The whole verbiage of "titans plus" comes from Ion stating they needed to have a major antagonistic threat (The Jailer) be "titan-level" or "titan++" level in order to be credible threat after fighting such enemies like Argus and N'Zoth.

There has never been an interview that outright states the Eternal Ones are stronger or at the same level of the titans. It has not been said.

You refuse to answer his question, and instead constantly dodge it, because you can't find it.

Cut out your psuedo-intellectual high horse riding over fictional lore, especially if you are constantly wrong.

"Try again" bro how about you actually try.

[Joshuaj]

Such dishonesty.
This claim has been debunked 100 times over, and you personally have participated in arguments where you've been shut down over this. The whole verbiage of "titans plus" comes from Ion stating they needed to have a major antagonistic threat (The Jailer) be "titan-level" or "titan++" level in order to be credible threat after fighting such enemies like Argus and N'Zoth.

There has never been an interview that outright states the Eternal Ones are stronger or at the same level of the titans. It has not been said.

You refuse to answer his question, and instead constantly dodge it, because you can't find it.

Cut out your psuedo-intellectual high horse riding over fictional lore, especially if you are constantly wrong.

"Try again" bro how about you actually try.

It has not been debunked. Y'alls only "debunks" come from the fact we defeated Denathrius and the fact you saw drought weakened Eternals struggle through stuff.

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"There has never been an interview that outright states the Eternal Ones are stronger or at the same level of the titans. It has not been said."

Hearthstone says they're counterparts to the Titans, Firims notes says they're on par, Dragonflight implies there may be beings of Life whose power rivals that of the Titans

https://web.archive.org/web/20200710...gendary-power- Morgan Day says they are on par with Titan's

Steve Danuser has an interview with Bellular where he states the Titans, Void Lords,and Eternal Ones are the next layer down from the First Ones (implying they are all the same level)

Need I go on or do y'all need quotes as well?

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Getting real tired of repeating myself. But keep trying.

[Houle]

It has not been debunked. Y'alls only "debunks" come from the fact we defeated Denathrius and the fact you saw drought weakened Eternals struggle through stuff.

And again you are trying to deflect the question.

Link one of these supposed "post-SL-launch interviews". You just said there are apparently "lots of them".

Link. One.

Edit:

Hearthstone says they're counterparts to the Titans

Hearthstone lol.
Hearthstone also counted Yogg and Mimiron as titan equivalents. Hearthstone does whatever it wants, its not really relevant to the warcraft lore.

Firims notes says they're on par, Dragonflight implies there may be beings of Life whose power rivals that of the Titans

Steve Danuser has an interview with Bellular where he states the Titans, Void Lords,and Eternal Ones are the next layer down from the First Ones (implying they are all the same level)

They are all the "next layer down" bc they all occupy the same position in their respective forces - they are the leaders of the cosmic forces. Their personal power compared to each other is something very different.
As weve seen with Sargeras and the other titans (and as you yourself said, Zovaal and the Eternal Ones), they are not all equally powerful. Some titans are stronger than others. Some Eternal ones are stronger than others. So we already know they are not necessarily equally powerful. Which means them occupying the same ranks in their respective forces does not at all mean they are equally powerful. Position doesnt equal personal power.
Chronicles 1 btw also described the VLs as "envious" of the titans power.

https://web.archive.org/web/20200710...gendary-power- Morgan Day says they are on par with Titan's

That interview was released months before SL came out lol. Yknow what another interview pre-launch said? That Eternal Ones are around the level of titan keepers. Which means none of them can be really taken into consideration.

You claimed there were lots of post-launch interviews.

[Joshuaj]

And again you are trying to deflect the question.

Link one of these supposed "post-SL-launch interviews". You just said there are apparently "lots of them".

Link. One.

They're all said to be of equal level here.

https://www.wowhead.com/item=208649/...e-of-the-dream There is also this book (Which implies there is likely a Pantheon of Life and their power is seemingly equal to that of the Titans)

"At these far reaches, I felt the presence of entities whose power seemed vast and unknowable, akin to the titans themselves."

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Also, one.

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Can we knock it off with this debate now?

[Houle]

They're all said to be of equal level here.

Nope, they are said to be of equal ranks, bc they are leaders of cosmic forces. Not of equal power. We already know that even the individual members of each Pantheon are not of equal power (Sargeras and Zovaal being the strongest members of their respective Pantheons) so theres really not much reason to assume the rest of them have to be of equal power.

https://www.wowhead.com/item=208649/...e-of-the-dream There is also this book (Which implies there is likely a Pantheon of Life and their power is seemingly equal to that of the Titans)

"At these far reaches, I felt the presence of entities whose power seemed vast and unknowable, akin to the titans themselves."

Can we knock it off with this debate now?

First of all, thats an unreliable ingame character who FELT something. But even if we take it at face value, then same thing as above: Those beings are not the Eternal Ones. Elune, for example, seemed to be much stronger than the WQ, from what both have shown. Different Pantheons might have the same position in their forces, but can very much be of different strength.

Can we knock it off with this debate now?

I mean, one post ago you were fully on the "Try again" train.

But ok i guess?

[Golden Yak]

If we assume Worldsouls aren't naturally Titans, what do y'all think they represent then? Cause, IF they aren't Titans naturally, I have my own theory on the matter

My guess would be the material universe itself. Natural elemental power. I think that's the 'seventh power', a realm that borders the six cosmic realms, and the Worldsouls are manifestations of it. Pantheons like the Titans and the Void Lords are trying to hijack the Worldsouls for their own purposes.

[Joshuaj]

Nope, they are said to be of equal ranks, bc they are leaders of cosmic forces. Not of equal power. We already know that even the individual members of each Pantheon are not of equal power (Sargeras and Zovaal being the strongest members of their respective Pantheons) so theres really not much reason to assume the rest of them have to be of equal power.



First of all, thats an unreliable ingame character who FELT something. But even if we take it at face value, then same thing as above: Those beings are not the Eternal Ones. Elune, for example, seemed to be much stronger than the WQ, from what both have shown. Different Pantheons might have the same position in their forces, but can very much be of different strength.



I mean, one post ago you were fully on the "Try again" train.

But ok i guess?

Yeah equal ranks mean equal power in this case. There is no reason to assume otherwise. Also, regarding the Green Dragon FEELING their presence, wouldn't that be evidence to support the similar power ranking argument? Both them and the Titans are transcendant and possess unfathomable power. I mean, if you think otherwise, I really need to see stuff on your end regarding it, cause I'm not convinced.

Also, there is nothing to suggest a Prime Winter Queen isn't as strong as Elune in her prime. While we haven't seen them both at their prime, we can at least assume that they're both similar in terms of rank for their respective realms, which should relate to power as well normally (ignoring bullshit like the drought of course).

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I'm still on the "try again" train.

[Cheezits]

My guess would be the material universe itself. Natural elemental power. I think that's the 'seventh power', a realm that borders the six cosmic realms, and the Worldsouls are manifestations of it. Pantheons like the Titans and the Void Lords are trying to hijack the Worldsouls for their own purposes.

That checks out with how Spirit works. However, apparently worlds WITHOUT worldsouls have more spirit. Doesn't that run counter to the idea?

[Joshuaj]

My guess would be the material universe itself. Natural elemental power. I think that's the 'seventh power', a realm that borders the six cosmic realms, and the Worldsouls are manifestations of it. Pantheons like the Titans and the Void Lords are trying to hijack the Worldsouls for their own purposes.

So you think the 7th Progenitor is something called "Element" or whatnot, and the Worldsouls are more-so manifestations of that Progenitors influence instead of the other 6 influences?

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Hmmm...maybe. But at the same time? Idk. Always saw the elements as a thing the Progenitors created so the Mortal realm could be better structured.

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Besides, based off what we know so far, the 7th power seemingly exists outside the design, while the elements are the lower ring within the design.

[Cheezits]

Besides, based off what we know so far, the 7th power seemingly exists outside the design, while the elements are the lower ring within the design.

I've thought for a while that Time was the 7th but I could see it being Spirit, as otherwise Elementals come from nothing. Elements could be a part of Life magics but I'm not so sure.

[Joshuaj]

I've thought for a while that Time was the 7th but I could see it being Spirit, as otherwise Elementals come from nothing. Elements could be a part of Life magics but I'm not so sure.

I don't think it's either personally. The 7th power was said to be "unseen" by Zovaal, and the elements are definitely not unseen. And we know that time is a construct of Order.

[Golden Yak]

That checks out with how Spirit works. However, apparently worlds WITHOUT worldsouls have more spirit. Doesn't that run counter to the idea?

My understanding is that Worldsouls soak up lots of Spirit, so worlds without one have more to go around. Also why the elements got more moody on ancient Azeroth, since apparently Spirit keeps elementals regular or whatever.

So you think the 7th Progenitor is something called "Element" or whatnot, and the Worldsouls are more-so manifestations of that Progenitors influence instead of the other 6 influences?

I'd lean more towards the 7th realm being someting not directly connected with the Progenitors - something coming into being spontaneously, without their effort and outside their influence.

[Ersula]

So you think the 7th Progenitor is something called "Element" or whatnot, and the Worldsouls are more-so manifestations of that Progenitors influence instead of the other 6 influences?

That checks out with how Spirit works. However, apparently worlds WITHOUT worldsouls have more spirit. Doesn't that run counter to the idea?

You're forgetting that versions of the cosmology chart use Spirit & Life interchangeably. Spirit belongs to the Life domain. The raw life energy both created the world soul AND the elemental lords.

[Houle]

Yeah equal ranks mean equal power in this case. There is no reason to assume otherwise.

Yes there is - pretty much everything the 2 groups have been shown to be capable of ingame. Also, again, like i said - we already know they are not all of equal power. We have proof of it ingame, and in multiple Chronicles (Chronicle 4 being the latest to point it out). So the argument that they are all of equal power is already invalid. They are not. Sargeras and Zovaal are proof of it. Which means there is more than enough reason to assume that different pantheons are differently powerful, even more so since weve seen one pantheon do much, much more powerful stuff than the other.

And again, its not even really a matter of "assuming". What you listed as a source just isnt describing what you are talking about. Danuser was describing the "cosmic hierarchy". And in the cosmic hierarchy, the titans and the Eternal Ones occupy the same rank - but nothing really indicates that they are on equal power. More the opposite.

I'm still on the "try again" train.

Ah, so the only reason you wrote that "Can we stop this discussion now" comment is bc you reeeeeeally want the discussion to end with you having the infamous "last word" and you tried to have it that way. Got it.

[Joshuaj]

My understanding is that Worldsouls soak up lots of Spirit, so worlds without one have more to go around. Also why the elements got more moody on ancient Azeroth, since apparently Spirit keeps elementals regular or whatever.



I'd lean more towards the 7th realm being someting not directly connected with the Progenitors - something coming into being spontaneously, without their effort and outside their influence.

Yeah but based off how it's being described, it more so seems like there are 7 Progenitors, with the 6 creating 1 design, and the 7th creating it's own.

I theorize that Blizzard may be setting up a "final boss" for Warcraft in that sense. Like a Yog-Sothoth archetype.

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Cause based off Chronicle and Firims notes, it seems like the Cosmology itself is just an extension of the First Ones. Hell, the influences are quite literally pieces of the Progenitors, so it makes sense to have a Yog-Sothoth connection there (Since Yog-Sothoth is basically the entire Lovecraft verse embodied).

So if we're to assume that there is a 7th Progenitor with its own design (either made as a disagreement with the other Progenitors, or made as a Plan B for everything which the Progenitors approved of), then we can assume that this second song, this "7th power", is essentially an extension (or part) of a Progenitor, which therefore gives it a type of Yog-Sothoth-esc nature to it, as the 7th power is it's own cosmology and that cosmology would be but a part of the 7th Progenitor.

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Yes there is - pretty much everything the 2 groups have been shown to be capable of ingame. Also, again, like i said - we already know they are not all of equal power. We have proof of it ingame, and in multiple Chronicles (Chronicle 4 being the latest to point it out). So the argument that they are all of equal power is already invalid. They are not. Sargeras and Zovaal are proof of it. Which means there is more than enough reason to assume that different pantheons are differently powerful, even more so since weve seen one pantheon do much, much more powerful stuff than the other.

And again, its not even really a matter of "assuming". What you listed as a source just isnt describing what you are talking about. Danuser was describing the "cosmic hierarchy". And in the cosmic hierarchy, the titans and the Eternal Ones occupy the same rank - but nothing really indicates that they are on equal power. More the opposite.



Ah, so the only reason you wrote that "Can we stop this discussion now" comment is bc you reeeeeeally want the discussion to end with you having the infamous "last word" and you tried to have it that way. Got it.

Tbf here, I also said that as to avoid getting banned.

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You're forgetting that versions of the cosmology chart use Spirit & Life interchangeably. Spirit belongs to the Life domain. The raw life energy both created the world soul AND the elemental lords.

I'm not talking about Spirit tho. I'm saying Golden Yak likely thinks the 7th is either not a Progenitor at all, or it is a Progenitor and it's name and influence is "element" like the Elemental ring, which includes spirit. I personally believe it's less that, and more that it's a 7th Progenitor with it's own design in mind.

[Jolly Roger]

the universe is a D20

chronicles makes me think that Xal and Locus-walker are both the remnants of a world soul that did not get to fully "hatch"
Xal also seems to be aiming for corrupting alleria and Locus-walker seems to be trying to alienate the void elves from her.

Midnight is going to have a faction of void elves joining the enemy

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I'm not talking about Spirit tho. I'm saying Golden Yak likely thinks the 7th is either not a Progenitor at all, or it is a Progenitor and it's name and influence is "element" like the Elemental ring, which includes spirit. I personally believe it's less that, and more that it's a 7th Progenitor with it's own design in mind.

i think the 7th is "reality" essentially all 6 forces as one in perfect balance and the world souls might start of as them
Azeroth was being influenced to be a life being but the we got order which has been essentially removed due to all the titan engines being damaged or destroyed.
The jailer tried to add death influence via icecrown and the engines there but failed
the light seems to be in the giant crystal along with void.

[Joshuaj]

the universe is a D20

chronicles makes me think that Xal and Locus-walker are both the remnants of a world soul that did not get to fully "hatch"
Xal also seems to be aiming for corrupting alleria and Locus-walker seems to be trying to alienate the void elves from her.

Midnight is going to have a faction of void elves joining the enemy

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i think the 7th is "reality" essentially all 6 forces as one in perfect balance and the world souls might start of as them
Azeroth was being influenced to be a life being but the we got order which has been essentially removed due to all the titan engines being damaged or destroyed.
The jailer tried to add death influence via icecrown and the engines there but failed
the light seems to be in the giant crystal along with void.

I'd say there's an argument to be made there, but a couple of issues:

1. Reality is everything that exists. Idk why Chronicle calls the center reality, but that should apply for every force also. What you're talking about is the Mortal realm AKA the physical universe.

2. Zovaal didn't fear the Mortal realm. He did however fear an unseen power whilist judging souls in the Mortal realm, further aiding the idea that the 7th has SOME hold in the cosmology, but it's also ultimately outside the cosmology, which makes it even crazier.

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Besides, based off Firims notes both in 9.1 and 9.2, it can't be the combination of the 6, as the whole "6 becomes 1" thing is its own song of creation entirely, while the 7th is another song.

[Auxis]

Currently, i think they are "raw" cosmic matter. Pure energy. Cosmic forces can probably sway the alignment of the souls in one direction or the other. We know of only one world soul that manifested so far, Argus. Yet, argus looked like a Titan... but he was supposedly completely aligned with death magic, thus his crash into the arbiter in the shadowlands. I think argus was the same "thing" as the titans of the pantheon, and what sargeras is. But about azeroth world souls? now, it seems to be special. It could be a the seventh first one, the one that is nothing and all.

Well, he was infused with Death magic but the Pantheon were channeling magic into him before he formed on the Seat iirc. Maybe he's a Titan in form because of that magic, but his essence is Death?