Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Lorgar Aurelian]

You're just naming the big names (and some small ones for males only). You also put 3 on one line and 2 on another line.

The general is also already dead,

which of the male names do you think are small? People like troll bane or kurdran have lesser roles while being major character but they are mirrored by female ones like Gorgeona or female thrall. The only other “small” character I can think of are skitter and stormward but they both take up like half a zones worth of questline like steel strike.

I also put 3/2 in one line because I don’t actually remember the characters names, not that it effects the count male have 14 female 13, though if the general died in I’m asssuming the lead up to raid quest line that I haven’t done it would be a 13/13 match.

where's all the dungeon bosses, sidequest characters, etc? You said you explicity didnt name these, but that is where the balance falls off imo.

the majority of dungeon bosses are male with some dungeons having zero female bosses, counting them would push males way ahead, side quest would likely bring the count closer with I’d guess a 1/2 female leading split if we’re not counting people who die, but I don’t have memory to account for that and don’t have time look up quest lines.

Though without checking I do think you’re right and most of the new characters who don’t die would be female.

Also Salandria is not Liadrins daughter right? I thought it was one of the orphans from the yearly event that grew up?

pretty sure she was adopted by Liadrin so she would be her adopted daughter.

[SunspotAnims]

Started Wondering so made a list off memory.

Male,

Skitter

Skitter's a girl

[Nightshade711]

I... lol

It's okay to not be a fan of a theme, but to blatantly ignore hints and indicators because of a preference is wrong.

But for petty posterity's sake, it was two icons.

The only icon I’m aware of is the single “goblinraid” offhand. The venture co rings are already being used.

The “hints and indicators” are for a possible goblin raid (which even then could be a single boss, given the “etherealraid” items).

There’s nothing yet confirming the theme of the patch or location of the raid or boss. For all we know the goblins could be invading the deepgrove/rootlands to exploit it for its resources. (Which is more likely given the story direction, and the datamined map name/size)

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Skitter's a girl

He’s using the male kobold model no? From a quick glance I can’t see any use of pronouns in the main quest are there some else where?

[micwini]

You're welcome to do the same than this dude and actually list them instead of just claiming stuff.

I might at some point, because people here seem to not do any side quests, but its going to involve a lot of time. The easiest way to experience is to just play through it yourself. You don't really need to keep a list and count as the balance is so far off.

[Eurhetemec]

Like, where's all the dungeon bosses, sidequest characters, etc? You said you explicity didnt name these, but that is where the balance falls off imo.

I mean, that's just false so you're hard-proving this is a problem with your own perceptions, not the facts. It's inarguable that the vast majority of dungeon bosses in this expansion are male. Do we need to list them? Let's do it so you have to outright admit you were wrong:

Rookery

Kyrioss - Male (animal but still male pronoun)
Stormguard Gorren - Male
Void Monstrosity - No gender ("it" pronoun)

Cinderbrew Meadery

Brew Master Aldryr - Male
Benk Buzzbee - Male
Ip'a - No gender
Goldie Baronbottom - Female

Darkflame Cleft

Ol' Waxbeard - Male
Blazikon - No gender
The Candle King - Male
The Darkness - No gender

The Stonevault

E.D.N.A - No gender (female-ish name but "it" pronouns)
Skarmorak - No gender
Speaker Brokk and Speaker Dorlita - One male, one female
Void Speaker Eirich - Male

Priory of the Sacred Flame

Captain Dailcry - Male
Baron Braunpyke - Male
Prioress Murrpray - Female

The Dawnbreaker

Speaker Shadowcrown - Female
Anub'ikkaj - Male
Rasha'nan - Female (I had no idea this thing even had a gender!)

Ara-Kara, City of Echoes

Avanoxx - Female
Anub'zekt - Male
Ki'katal the Harvester - Female

City of Threads

Orator Krix'vizk - Male
Nx and Vx - Male and Female (forget which way around)
The Coaglamation - No gender
Izo - Female

So the final count is:

14 male, 8 female (can push it to 9 with EDNA if you want to be difficult), 7 no gender.

So that's not even close. There are more female last bosses, but that's not exactly surprising in a spider-person-themed expansion, is it? And most expansions are dominated by male final bosses.

EDIT - In fact you said you agree re: it not mattering re: the endbosses because the expansion is as you put it "insect-themed".

You're wondering about the M+ dungeon it's:

Mists of Tirna Scithe - Male, Female, Female
Necrotic Wake - Male, Male, Male, Male
Siege of Boralus - Male, Female, Male, No Gender (? I can't find any pronouns for this being at all)
Grim Batol - Male, Male, Male, Male

So yeah you're definitely wrong and should admit it.

[micwini]

which of the male names do you think are small? People like troll bane or kurdran have lesser roles while being major character but they are mirrored by female ones like Gorgeona or female thrall. The only other “small” character I can think of are skitter and stormward but they both take up like half a zones worth of questline like steel strike.

I also put 3/2 in one line because I don’t actually remember the characters names, not that it effects the count male have 14 female 13, though if the general died in I’m asssuming the lead up to raid quest line that I haven’t done it would be a 13/13 match.


the majority of dungeon bosses are male with some dungeons having zero female bosses, counting them would push males way ahead, side quest would likely bring the count closer with I’d guess a 1/2 female leading split if we’re not counting people who die, but I don’t have memory to account for that and don’t have time look up quest lines.

Though without checking I do think you’re right and most of the new characters who don’t die would be female.


pretty sure she was adopted by Liadrin so she would be her adopted daughter.

I mean most endbosses are though, that is what matters. I don't care about ansurek as insects should really have an insect queen.
Small characters like skitter is just a wtf who can I come up with situation. And as you said, kurdran, thrall, gazlowe have almost 0 screentime. Though I think Gazlowe's will increase soon.

[Eurhetemec]

I might at some point, because people here seem to not do any side quests, but its going to involve a lot of time. The easiest way to experience is to just play through it yourself. You don't really need to keep a list and count as the balance is so far off.

You say that, but you've just hard-proven that you were wrong about dungeons, and so you claiming "I don't need to keep a list" rings extremely false. You think you don't, because you don't realize how badly your own perceptions are messing with your ability to keep track of this.

[micwini]

I mean, that's just false so you're hard-proving this is a problem with your own perceptions, not the facts. It's inarguable that the vast majority of dungeon bosses in this expansion are male. Do we need to list them? Let's do it so you have to outright admit you were wrong:

Rookery

Kyrioss - Male (animal but still male pronoun)
Stormguard Gorren - Male
Void Monstrosity - No gender ("it" pronoun)

Cinderbrew Meadery

Brew Master Aldryr - Male
Benk Buzzbee - Male
Ip'a - No gender
Goldie Baronbottom - Female

Darkflame Cleft

Ol' Waxbeard - Male
Blazikon - No gender
The Candle King - Male
The Darkness - No gender

The Stonevault

E.D.N.A - No gender (female-ish name but "it" pronouns)
Skarmorak - No gender
Speaker Brokk and Speaker Dorlita - One male, one female
Void Speaker Eirich - Male

Priory of the Sacred Flame

Captain Dailcry - Male
Baron Braunpyke - Male
Prioress Murrpray - Female

The Dawnbreaker

Speaker Shadowcrown - Female
Anub'ikkaj - Male
Rasha'nan - Female (I had no idea this thing even had a gender!)

Ara-Kara, City of Echoes

Avanoxx - Female
Anub'zekt - Male
Ki'katal the Harvester - Female

City of Threads

Orator Krix'vizk - Male
Nx and Vx - Male and Female (forget which way around)
The Coaglamation - No gender
Izo - Female

So the final count is:

14 male, 8 female (can push it to 9 with EDNA if you want to be difficult), 7 no gender.

So that's not even close. There are more female last bosses, but that's not exactly surprising in a spider-person-themed expansion, is it? And most expansions are dominated by male final bosses.

You're wondering about the M+ dungeon it's:

Mists of Tirna Scithe - Male, Female, Female
Necrotic Wake - Male, Male, Male, Male
Siege of Boralus - Male, Female, Male, No Gender (? I can't find any pronouns for this being at all)
Grim Batol - Male, Male, Male, Male

So yeah you're definitely wrong and should admit it.

Nope, as already said it's about final bosses, which you admitted. And no, it really doesn't make sense at all. You also listed the 4 old dungeons, which is before wokecraft kicked in. Thanks for listing all dungeon bosses and proving my point, especially having the older dungeons in there really solidifies it.

- - - Updated - - -

You say that, but you've just hard-proven that you were wrong about dungeons, and so you claiming "I don't need to keep a list" rings extremely false. You think you don't, because you don't realize how badly your own perceptions are messing with your ability to keep track of this.

Speak to me again, when you have done all side quests. You've already proven me right with your dungeon boss list. Care to do the same for me with the side quests? Thanks.

[Eurhetemec]

Off-topic from current conversation-- do you think "Delves" will be renamed sometime after TWW?

The name "Delve" describes digging/excavating into something, and in the case of this expansion being underground with various underground caves/chambers/tunnels/etc to be explored through "delving" it makes sense. Plus, Delves are to be evergreen content going forward.

But we won't always be underground. We'll be above ground as early as the next expansion and for more Delves to be added to the overworld of Azeroth... should the name remain to imply underground adventuring?

DISCLAIMER: I personally do not care if they change the name or not. I only bring it up because I had this conversation with my M+ team.

I don't think they will, because equally speaking, almost no dungeons are in dungeons, and tons, maybe the majority, are in places which aren't underground structures of any kind, so couldn't even tenuously be termed dungeons.

Delve is a category of content, it doesn't need to be precise, and renaming it is just going to muddy the waters.

[SunspotAnims]

He’s using the male kobold model no? From a quick glance I can’t see any use of pronouns in the main quest are there some else where?

The sexual dimorphism of the kobold models is hard to tell sometimes, but I also thought Skitter was a boy until Brinthe refers to her as "her" during some interaction I can't remember.

Warcraft Wiki confirms it as well

[Eurhetemec]

Nope, as already said it's about final bosses, which you admitted. And no, it really doesn't make sense at all. You also listed the 4 old dungeons, which is before wokecraft kicked in. Thanks for listing all dungeon bosses and proving my point, especially having the older dungeons in there really solidifies it.

You've been proven wrong, and you refuse to admit it.

Classy. You've also been two-faced by saying you don't mind female insect-people being the last bosses, and then being mad as hell because female insect-people are the last bosses. Which is it?

"World of Wokecraft" is absolutely juvenile name-calling and shows you have no argument or actual rationale here, just a serious bias. It's very funny that you think an all-male dungeon is "cool and fine", but a single female endboss makes a dungeon "messed-up and wrong". Also very funny that you're saying Shadowlands was "before World of Wokecraft", when people were absolutely calling SL that. Some amazing historical revisionism there.

Speak to me again, when you have done all side quests. You've already proven me right with your dungeon boss list. Care to do the same for me with the side quests? Thanks.

I've done almost all the sidequests on my DK and I'm saying you're wrong.

And no, I'm not going through literally hundreds of sidequests for you, not after you've been proven wrong and tackily refused to admit it. My feeling is I could prove that sidequests were 70% male-lead and you'd still be saying "Wellllll ackshully I only mean the sidequests I think are important!". You don't have an actual point here. I don't for one second believe you've done all the sidequests, either.

[Zardas]

I might at some point, because people here seem to not do any side quests, but its going to involve a lot of time. The easiest way to experience is to just play through it yourself. You don't really need to keep a list and count as the balance is so far off.

I don't have a sub right now. But plenty of others have experienced the game, and you seem to be the only one to have such a feeling. So why should I believe you and not them, when they are the one giving actual data and you're the one who, from an outsider perspective, seem to constantly move the goalpost ?

[micwini]

You've been proven wrong, and you refuse to admit it.

Classy. You've also been two-faced by saying you don't mind female insect-people being the last bosses, and then being mad as hell because female insect-people are the last bosses. Which is it?

"World of Wokecraft" is absolutely juvenile name-calling and shows you have no argument or actual rationale here, just a serious bias. It's very funny that you think an all-male dungeon is "cool and fine", but a single female endboss makes a dungeon "messed-up and wrong". Also very funny that you're saying Shadowlands was "before World of Wokecraft", when people were absolutely calling SL that. Some amazing historical revisionism there.



I've done almost all the sidequests on my DK and I'm saying you're wrong.

And no, I'm not going through literally hundreds of sidequests for you, not after you've been proven wrong and tackily refused to admit it. My feeling is I could prove that sidequests were 70% male-lead and you'd still be saying "Wellllll ackshully I only mean the sidequests I think are important!". You don't have an actual point here. I don't for one second believe you've done all the sidequests, either.

"You're wrong lol, admit it". "You're wrong lol". "You're wrong". "You have a nuanced opinion, so what is it?".

Yeah, try a bit harder next time.

[Makabreska]

I see it's time for yet another micwinis "too many females in WoW" argument. It keeps happening regularly.

[micwini]

I don't have a sub right now. But plenty of others have experienced the game, and you seem to be the only one to have such a feeling. So why should I believe you and not them, when they are the one giving actual data and you're the one who, from an outsider perspective, seem to constantly move the goalpost ?

No goalposts are being moved? So you admit you dont play the game, yet you somehow know which side is right. Interesting.
People have talked about it, I mean Im sure you must have seen this discussion before from others as well. The reason you don't see it talked about is because most people that care about legitimate, no bullshit worldbuilding no longer play the game.

- - - Updated - - -

I see it's time for yet another micwinis "too many females in WoW" argument. It keeps happening regularly.

** In TWW **.

Also: Check what comment sprouted this. I didn't start this. I will not start these discussions unless prompted or relevant to a specific thread.

[Eurhetemec]

"You're wrong lol, admit it". "You're wrong lol". "You're wrong". "You have a nuanced opinion, so what is it?".

Yeah, try a bit harder next time.

You're still hard-proven wrong, and you're still refusing to back up your obviously-false claim re: sidequests, mate, so I'm not sure what you think you're achieving beyond highlighting that this is a perceptual issue on your part.

< shrug >

The reason you don't see it talked about is because most people that care about legitimate, no bullshit worldbuilding no longer play the game.

You're seriously "No True Scotsman"-ing worldbuilding? INCREDIBLE APPROACH lmao. "It's not TRUE worldbuilding unless I, micwini, designate it 'legitimate and no bullshit'!!!". Just amazing stuff. So persuasive and compelling!

Also, how to Delves fit in eh? We've only got Brann for that major bit of content, and I'm confident in saying most last Delve bosses are male or no gender, and if we get Gazlowe as the next companion (as seems likely), that's further undermining your ridiculous point. I guess you'd rather we didn't think about those?

I didn't start this.

You absolutely did lol. See quote below:

Females are already overrepresented this expansion. Pass.

All the person was saying was asking to alternate genders, and you got mad and started grinding your little axe. You can't blame others for your own behaviour.

[Makabreska]

** In TWW **

You had exact same "problem" in DF. And the "it is an issue, but no one talks about it because current players don't care about world-building' is a really interesting explanation why you never really get any support here during arguments like this, beside obvious baiters like Cherry123.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I mean most endbosses are though, that is what matters. I don't care about ansurek as insects should really have an insect queen.
Small characters like skitter is just a wtf who can I come up with situation. And as you said, kurdran, thrall, gazlowe have almost 0 screentime. Though I think Gazlowe's will increase soon.

Ok let’s adjust a bit then and take out characters with little screen time and lesser main quest characters.

Male take out,

Trollbane
Kurdan
Skitter
Gazlow
Stormward
Number from 13 to 8.

Female take away.
Female thrall
Gorgrona
Steel strike
Liadrin and her daughter
That once council member who doesn’t talk to machines or get the rooks.
Number goes from 13 to 7.

Thrall gets to stay due to his appearance in cutscenes, though if you want to take him out remove the the storm rook council member for female as well as she’s got similar time as thrall.

[micwini]

You had exact same "problem" in DF. And the "it is an issue, but no one talks about it because current players don't care about world-building' is a really interesting explanation why you never really get any support here during arguments like this, beside obvious baiters like Cherry123.

Of course, anyone who doesn't agree with you is "obvious baiter" or "incel". DF had kind of the same issue yeah towards the end especially, now that you say it. You never really argue anything, just call people names and post strawmans.

It is obvious that this entire weird turn started in 9.1.5. Wonder why. Like the other poster with all the dungeon bosses. Small sample yeah, but you can see how older content is just free of almost any political imprint.
Like I fondly remember in hallowfall, there is a dialogue option for steelstrike and her daughter and it is like "So you suspect nepotism?". In universe characters shouldnt even have a word for that and if they had they should have laughed at your ingame character for asking and respond "lol, so what? I'm the boss".

- - - Updated - - -

Ok let’s adjust a bit then and take out characters with little screen time and lesser main quest characters.

Male take out,

Trollbane
Kurdan
Skitter
Gazlow
Stormward
Number from 13 to 9.

Female take away.
Female thrall
Gorgrona
Steel strike
Liadrin and her daughter
That once council member who doesn’t talk to machines or get the rooks.
Number goes from 13 to 7.

Thrall gets to stay due to his appearance in cutscenes, though if you want to take him out remove the the storm rook council member for female as well as she’s got similar time as thrall.

It's all fine my guy. I'm talking about side questlines like the demented earthen being replaced by a woman, the zeppelin captain, etc. stuff like that. Just the 2 most memorable to me because the questlines were good.