Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Kathranis]

This is something that folds into a thought I've had for a while, that it is kinda odd that "Elune" essentially has a stake in all of the cosmological forces. She's worshipped by users of the light, obviously is one of the primary figures for life, has ties with Eonar to a point where structures of Order like the Emerald Dream seem to be directly inspired by her (not even considering whatever it is we don't know yet about the Freysworn and Elun'ahir), the "night warrior" and twilight theme feels awfully voidy, her relationship with Ardenweald and the Winter Queen.

Those thoughts aren't very cohesive, but my point being perhaps the naming "land of eternal starlight" and musings of Elune are not as separate of myths and legends as we think.

Titan conspiracy in TLT is that Elune is Azeroth /s (but also...?)

Pretty sure Elune has already officially been confirmed to be the Winter Queen's counterpart in the Pantheon of Life, which is the cosmic force we really know the least about beyond local manifestations like Wild Gods and the Emerald Dream. They could have all sorts of different theming and powers that differ from or expand on Life magic as we know it. And frankly, most of Elune's powers are related to her theming as a moon goddess: the moon is a celestial object, it reflects light, it waxes and wanes, it becomes eclipsed by other celestial objects. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if she can also control the tides.

As for the Light specifically, faith alone is often sufficient to call upon the Light, so worshippers of Elune may very well be able draw on the Light purely through their faith without Elune actually having any involvement whatsoever. Or, perhaps literally or metaphorically, she merely redirects Light from the Realm of Light to her worshippers, just as real moonlight is actually reflected sunlight.

As for how she fully ties into all the other cosmic forces, I think that's getting into something that will likely be further expanded as we progress into and beyond the Worldsoul Saga: familial relationships between cosmic beings.

She's the Winter Queen's sister, and I'd say that there's a very strong likelihood that An'she is inspired by member of the Pantheon of Light who would be their brother. Eonar was also one of her many lovers, and Xal'atath knows her as an "upstart goddess" suggesting that they may have encountered one another when the cosmos was still young and Elune was new to the scene.

I personally have a theory, which I posted about in the Lore subforum quite a while back, that worldsouls are not inherently linked to any cosmic force, and can likely emerge within planets as well as moons, and there are also likely equivalents that can be born from stars--sunsouls, starsouls, whatever you want to call them--and so cosmic beings born from celestial objects that form solar systems become families. What cosmic force they ultimately embody is dependent upon which cosmic energy they become infused with.

Under the natural order, I suspect that celestial beings of the Pantheons of Light, Void, and Disorder are born from stars--healthy stars that burn bright, stars that become black holes, and fel stars corrupted by the chaotic energies of the Twisting Nether. Celestial beings of the Pantheons of Life, Death, and Order are born from worlds--worlds teaming with biological life, worlds that suffer extinction events, and worlds dominated by elemental forces.

At some point, the Pantheons discovered that they could influence how these souls developed and started trying to manipulated the process, all eventually setting their sights on Azeroth, the Prime Worldsoul.

Anyway, theoretically speaking, you might have a scenario such as this: a sun imbued with Light shone on a planet that had a moon, and all three were imbued with nascent souls. Life took root on both worlds. However, at some point the sun's light ceased to shine upon the planet, and it was plunged into an eternal winter that lead to the extinction of all life on its surface and its worldsoul perished, becoming the Winter Queen of the Pantheon of Death. Its moon continued to flourish and became Elune of the Pantheon of Life. And the sun ultimately became An'she of the Pantheon of Light.

There may be other such connections between other cosmic entities that we've already met and those we have yet to meet. I'm firmly of the opinion that there's an entire Pantheon of Disorder out there somewhere, likely imprisoned by the titans. Perhaps Denathrius is even a sibling of one of its members, perhaps he was born from a world in the Twisting Nether destroyed by his brother, a fel sun, just as an example of where that kind of idea could go.

[hattahat]

This is something that folds into a thought I've had for a while, that it is kinda odd that "Elune" essentially has a stake in all of the cosmological forces. She's worshipped by users of the light, obviously is one of the primary figures for life, has ties with Eonar to a point where structures of Order like the Emerald Dream seem to be directly inspired by her (not even considering whatever it is we don't know yet about the Freysworn and Elun'ahir), the "night warrior" and twilight theme feels awfully voidy, her relationship with Ardenweald and the Winter Queen.

Those thoughts aren't very cohesive, but my point being perhaps the naming "land of eternal starlight" and musings of Elune are not as separate of myths and legends as we think.

Titan conspiracy in TLT is that Elune is Azeroth /s (but also...?)

I've written about this before, but here it is again.

I think Elune's identity is pretty much confirmed at this point. Elune is the pantheon of life, and is involved with other cosmic forces.
Elune approached and befriended the other cosmic powers purely out of a desire to see harmony and goodwill amongst all of them, and so one by one, she befriended the pantheons of the other powers and made deals with them.

The Winter Queen of the Death faction is said to be Elune's sister, and we don't know if that's really because they were created together by a single creator, a first one, or if it's more of a blood-sister thing, but it's definitely a close relationship.
And Elune and the Winter Queen made a deal of sorts, exchanging souls from their respective realms, creating a cycle of death and rebirth.

Eonar of the Order was also revealed to have a very close relationship with Elune, which clears up a long-standing mystery.
Emerald dream is not a realm "created" by the Titans or Freya, but rather an area that Eonar received from Elune.
Elune gave Eonar a portion of the Realm of Life that she was in charge of, and Eonar used her minions, Nymue, Freya, and others, to transform it into what it is today.

However, Elune is involved with other forces besides these two.
In fact, it was the Light's Heart that was mentioned before this in Legion.
It could be argued that Elune's tear was treated as the pillar of creation because of her dealings with Eonar, even though Elune herself is not a Titan, but we should also remember that Elune's tear reacted with Light's Heart to awaken Xe'ra.
This leads us to speculate that Elune was involved in the creation of Xe'ra through a deal with one of the Pantheon of Light.

The Void is more nuanced than this, with dark powers wielded by the Night Warriors, but can also be traced back to Xal'atath's quotes in the Legion.
Xal'atath referred to Elune then as an upstart goddess.
This is purely speculation, but I suspect that Elune also made a deal with the Void Lords and eventually realized that they were fundamentally incompatible and walked away.

That leaves the Disorder, but we don't even have a proper pantheon here to begin with, so this is the only thing we can really guess at right now.

In any case, this is how I suspect Elune, the Pantheon of Life, approached them, popping up here and there.
I don't know if the Nathrezim report's reference to the insidiousness of Life was meant to refer to Elune's behavior like this, but I think it's more likely that Elune genuinely wanted to be friends with everyone rather than have any nefarious intentions.
I think Elune is a character that embodies both the courage and naivety that are typical of Life.
It's also possible that another member of the pantheon of life, other than Elune, was actually up to something insidious in the first place.

[Raetary]

Eh, with the Arathis take on the cosmlogy and the nature of the Sacred Flame, and the depiction of Death magic as it stands with Shadowlands, Elunes supposed rainbow of powers might not be anything but just Life magic manifesting in different ways.

Or some of those powers might not even necessarily come from her directly.

The Sacred Flame is a manifestation of faith unique to the Arathi, a source of power that is both Arcane and Holy.

What is to say that the Light of Elune, as we know it from Nelven society, is not just that too, a manifestation of her worshippers faith in her as a goddess.
Something that contains some of her life giving powers but also represents the culture and magic of her subjects.
Something that she can use as a medium to communicate and influence the people under her.

[milkmustache]

I've written about this before, but here it is again.

Snip

A lot of really good points here.

The "upstart goddess" quote is something I've seen a few people mention now, and that keeps peaking my interest.

As we start to learn more of Xal'atath and what she is, I wonder if there is a possibility that Elune is a counterpart of hers. If Xal'atath is some intermediary between Old Gods and Void Lords, a being of power aligned with the void but lacking explicit definition, could Elune be the same for Light or Life?

Even further, could Elune have the same origins as Xal'atath, but a different path? Perhaps world souls that were never made to be a Titan, never consumed by the Void, never destroyed or converted by Sargeras, perhaps there is some sort of path to becoming a "god" outside the bounds of the cosmological forces that we've yet to come across. Perhaps Xal'atath is one of these as well, yet chose to align with the Void (as others have speculated, perhaps she was the world soul of K'aresh).

I think the great mystery of Elune is a huge plus for the worldbuilding of the game. I hope we never really find out the answer or ever truly meet her. I'd love for her to keep this veiled mysticism and power.

[Eldryth]

At the very least, Elune appears to have very strong ties to both Life and Light. Shadowlands did more or less state that she's the Winter Queen's sister from the realm of Life, yet Legion showed that she most likely created the Prime Naaru (Khadgar found it as a theory, which was all but confirmed when his idea to use the Tears of Elune on Light's Heart worked). And there's also her relationship with Eonar, who loved her according to the Elun'ahir book.

Also, didn't the Night Warrior lore from Shadowlands show that she has worshippers on other worlds as well? If I'm remembering that right, that should rule out her being anything too specific to Azeroth in particular.

[Nightshade711]

The next major patch/storyline being Beledar focused would make sense given the hints in 11.0.5 PTR, and the fact that we’ve got a light/holy recolor of the M+ mount.
If they wish to match the mount with the season themes like they did in DF.

[Nathanyel]

Eh, the English translation team doing the German version would certainly explain it.

I'm confused, are you talking about WoW or XIV now?

But ignoring a possible joke, the German localization of WoW was headed by the then-center of Blizzard Europe in Paris. You can tell by the crocolisks - no, really! In both French and German, it's not merging Crocodile and Basilisk into Crocolisk, but Crocilisque/Krokilisk, to this day. Locales using the Latin alphabet that were added later do not do this, it's "Crocolisco" in Spanish, Italian and Portuguese.

[Eurhetemec]

It's a bit interesting to consider that Midnight is pretty much TBC 3.0 with a renewed focus on Quel'thalas, and the possibility of a similar off-world adventure with a visit to K'aresh.

TLT, meanwhile, is sort of like WotLK.

I think Metzen feels right at home with the old school lore in those expansions.

Imagine the hype leading up to TLT. They'll want to throw in as many fan favourites as possible, I think, to connect it to the past. Maybe an opening cinematic in which we see Tyr or Odyn summon the Titans from Ulduar?

Imagine all the cool stuff they'll do. A bunch of proto dragon mounts. Icecrown Citadel torn down or repurposed. Sholazar Basin even more overgrown than previously, even reaching into other zones a bit.

That is an interesting perspective, yeah re: TBC/WotLK. I do hope they are able to build up and up with those two. The return to Northrend could be absolutely insane - especially if they wreck the place as much as seems to be implied, which could really rule.

Re: Elune I'm still going with my wife's theory - "Elune is a spaceship" (as in an AI controlling a spaceship), which she came up with in Vanilla and has stuck to ever since! She certainly seems to be Life-aligned more than Light-aligned.

[milkmustache]

It's a bit interesting to consider that Midnight is pretty much TBC 3.0 with a renewed focus on Quel'thalas, and the possibility of a similar off-world adventure with a visit to K'aresh.

TLT, meanwhile, is sort of like WotLK.

I think Metzen feels right at home with the old school lore in those expansions.

Imagine the hype leading up to TLT. They'll want to throw in as many fan favourites as possible, I think, to connect it to the past. Maybe an opening cinematic in which we see Tyr or Odyn summon the Titans from Ulduar?

Imagine all the cool stuff they'll do. A bunch of proto dragon mounts. Icecrown Citadel torn down or repurposed. Sholazar Basin even more overgrown than previously, even reaching into other zones a bit.

I totally agree with the take on Metzen feeling at home here. I think they're going to both be incredible expansions. Doing Ulduar TW this week has made me incredibly excited, but it's also given me another thought;

While aspects (pun) of Dragonflight were fun, I felt that the overall Titan and Dragon aesthetic was toned down from it's predecessors in earlier expansions.

Please bear with me because it's the only term that I can think of to describe how I feel, I promise I am not saying this in a provacative way, buuuuut the overall feeling was that it lost a lot of its teeth... the edges smooted out, it was overall far softer than previous. (Again, sorry)

Adopting modern graphics and sticking to the art style that is currently in game will do that, but I felt the overal armor and weapon designs and color coding of the Dragonflights felt very drab. I've felt that a lot of WoW color palettes have been off lately, there's a reluctancy to move past a two tone pattern and all of the golds/bronzes/silvers have these odd tints to them that don't match anything else.

But just as much, the Titan constructs felt very clean, which I hope is pivoted from in TLT. Ulduar and Northrend in general really felt so hostile. I hope we can recapture that sense of danger in the landscape first, let alone the enemies we find there.

[Eurhetemec]

I totally agree with the take on Metzen feeling at home here. I think they're going to both be incredible expansions. Doing Ulduar TW this week has made me incredibly excited, but it's also given me another thought;

While aspects (pun) of Dragonflight were fun, I felt that the overall Titan and Dragon aesthetic was toned down from it's predecessors in earlier expansions.

Please bear with me because it's the only term that I can think of to describe how I feel, I promise I am not saying this in a provacative way, buuuuut the overall feeling was that it lost a lot of its teeth... the edges smooted out, it was overall far softer than previous. (Again, sorry)

Adopting modern graphics and sticking to the art style that is currently in game will do that, but I felt the overal armor and weapon designs and color coding of the Dragonflights felt very drab. I've felt that a lot of WoW color palettes have been off lately, there's a reluctancy to move past a two tone pattern and all of the golds/bronzes/silvers have these odd tints to them that don't match anything else.

But just as much, the Titan constructs felt very clean, which I hope is pivoted from in TLT. Ulduar and Northrend in general really felt so hostile. I hope we can recapture that sense of danger in the landscape first, let alone the enemies we find there.

I think that's a pretty reasonable comment re: the Titan aesthetic - I feel like since SL WoW has kind of been in a difficult period look-wise, where they're transitioning to a much higher-res and higher-poly look on both enemies and equipment, and it often ends up being a bit too clean as a result. I don't think it's some EviL BliZarD ManaGeMent deal trying to "dUm4 D0wn" WoW or whatever, but just a matter of an aesthetic that is having difficulty making the leap to "HD" as it were. TWW seems to "get it" a lot more than SL/DF did imho.

Re: two-tone pattern, that on the other hand is pretty clearly intentional, and I think it is a bit tricky because it's produced some complete masterpieces (honestly the current-tier Monk set is stunning and the Warrior one is awesome too imho, and several others are good - only the DK set stands out as "What the fuck were you thinking?", but that's fair play given DKs have had more great sets than maybe any other class), but also a lot of not-bad but rather yawnsome pieces. I feel you re gold/silver/bronze too - I think they've moved away from that with the current raid Tier (and items), and I expect them to stay away, but they started on that with Maw, doubled down on it with Sepulcher, and kept on with it a bit into DF. I feel like it's forgivable - every MMO does it sooner or later (usually much sooner!) - i.e. goes for a period with an aesthetic that's "not quite right", but I would like to see armour with more like 3+ major tones rather than two, even if it's easier to end up fugly (and it is).

And yeah, I definitely want TLT Northrend to feel hostile again - hopefully the seemingly-massive disruption will let them achieve that.

[milkmustache]

I think that's a pretty reasonable comment re: the Titan aesthetic - I feel like since SL WoW has kind of been in a difficult period look-wise, where they're transitioning to a much higher-res and higher-poly look on both enemies and equipment, and it often ends up being a bit too clean as a result. I don't think it's some EviL BliZarD ManaGeMent deal trying to "dUm4 D0wn" WoW or whatever, but just a matter of an aesthetic that is having difficulty making the leap to "HD" as it were. TWW seems to "get it" a lot more than SL/DF did imho.

Re: two-tone pattern, that on the other hand is pretty clearly intentional, and I think it is a bit tricky because it's produced some complete masterpieces (honestly the current-tier Monk set is stunning and the Warrior one is awesome too imho, and several others are good - only the DK set stands out as "What the fuck were you thinking?", but that's fair play given DKs have had more great sets than maybe any other class), but also a lot of not-bad but rather yawnsome pieces. I feel you re gold/silver/bronze too - I think they've moved away from that with the current raid Tier (and items), and I expect them to stay away, but they started on that with Maw, doubled down on it with Sepulcher, and kept on with it a bit into DF. I feel like it's forgivable - every MMO does it sooner or later (usually much sooner!) - i.e. goes for a period with an aesthetic that's "not quite right", but I would like to see armour with more like 3+ major tones rather than two, even if it's easier to end up fugly (and it is).

I should have left a footnote stating that TWW has massively improved over DF in this regard. The tier sets for the most part look incredible (I'm a big time hater of the Paladin set, I feel like their aesthetic is completely lost at the moment).

I generally love the more traditional armor look (the conquistador looking store set does this very well), but the lack in differentiation on it somtimes is intense. Also, just because it's plate doesn't mean that every piece of it has to be plate. Throw in a leather strap or two please! But as I said, we're getting better.

[Eurhetemec]

I should have left a footnote stating that TWW has massively improved over DF in this regard. The tier sets for the most part look incredible (I'm a big time hater of the Paladin set, I feel like their aesthetic is completely lost at the moment).

Oh my god that set is so dopey. It really feels like Paladins and DKs are paying for having like a zillion great Tier sets (seriously, no other class is even close) with practically "DERP" level Tier sets this time! The DK one looks like the lovechild of a Lego skeleton and a cast-iron fence, and the Paladin one just looks like really bad cosplay. Those wings particularly look and move like they're made of cheap foam. My wife literally gasped when she saw them and then couldn't stop laughing.

I generally love the more traditional armor look (the conquistador looking store set does this very well), but the lack in differentiation on it somtimes is intense. Also, just because it's plate doesn't mean that every piece of it has to be plate. Throw in a leather strap or two please! But as I said, we're getting better.

Agree re: plate (same for other amour types, just because it's leather doesn't mean it can't have a metal breastplate or something). The Warrior plate looks cool AF imho so there's that.

[Sondrelk]

Oh my god that set is so dopey. It really feels like Paladins and DKs are paying for having like a zillion great Tier sets (seriously, no other class is even close) with practically "DERP" level Tier sets this time! The DK one looks like the lovechild of a Lego skeleton and a cast-iron fence, and the Paladin one just looks like really bad cosplay. Those wings particularly look and move like they're made of cheap foam. My wife literally gasped when she saw them and then couldn't stop laughing.

Let's be honest though. If we didnt get the Arathi plate set available to start with, then it would have been a Paladin set and everyone would have talked about how it was one of the best ones in the game.

DK sets though really jsut need to stop focusing on skulls all the time. Really feels like the designers are too lazy with getting across the theme of death in their DK sets.
Rusted armour. Plagued dragon scales. Wells of diseased water. Dead trees. etc. All of these could make for the basis for a great set, and yet we always fall back on either skulls, or a variant on the Arthas appearance.


Other sets look great though. The Evoker sets are a bit tied down to the idea of looking like a dragon aspect. But at least the one we got for this tier with it being Deathwing inspired is absolutely amazing. Even if the set suffers immensely from not being able to transmog outside Visage form.

[milkmustache]

Let's be honest though. If we didnt get the Arathi plate set available to start with, then it would have been a Paladin set and everyone would have talked about how it was one of the best ones in the game.

DK sets though really jsut need to stop focusing on skulls all the time. Really feels like the designers are too lazy with getting across the theme of death in their DK sets.
Rusted armour. Plagued dragon scales. Wells of diseased water. Dead trees. etc. All of these could make for the basis for a great set, and yet we always fall back on either skulls, or a variant on the Arthas appearance.


Other sets look great though. The Evoker sets are a bit tied down to the idea of looking like a dragon aspect. But at least the one we got for this tier with it being Deathwing inspired is absolutely amazing. Even if the set suffers immensely from not being able to transmog outside Visage form.

Great point about the Paladin sets, the Arathi sets across the board (except for cloth) are incredible and a real treat. Cloth is a bit much and stale, IMO, but I appreciate the attempt.

I agree about Death Knights... it seems like "death" is the only part they can remember. The skulled candleabra set is a really strange design choice. Death Knights have incredible lore. Theres a general lack of darkness and eeriness to them. I feel like I still see a lot of DK players using the Acherus set as a transmog option because it does such a good job at portraying this fallen knight image.

[Telogrus]

Wowhead posted about some new dialogue in Dornogal on the PTR, and it sounds like rather than Undermine, or Goblins in the Rootlands, the Goblin and Arathi plotlines might be coming together in a new area that I haven't seen predicted.

Gazlowe's Goblins discovered a big crystal that seems to be calling to them on a nearby island, they plan to go back and investigate more, rumors are starting to spread, the Arathi are building a new airbase on the surface for a mysterious journey, and the Earthen formed a new group called the Stormrangers to act as scouts and explore.

Even with that little information, an obvious major likely possibility stands out- the Goblins found the top of Beledar on another island, and we'll be going there with various groups to investigate. And with the Goblin involvement, it seems like the datamined Goblin raid will be there.

And if that's 11.1, that leaves the Rootlands for 11.2. And maybe Azeroth's core and Titan stuff will be present there, since that seems like the obvious climax of TWW?



All of this kind of misses the point that people are expecting us to visit K'aresh during this Void-heavy Saga, not after it. Personally, I think it would fit best during Midnight, as the climax of the war with the Void. It seems like a good fit when we're dealing with the same threat that destroyed it and Xal'atath seems to be working for Dimensius.

And its current state is vague enough that it wouldn't really need a retcon. Yes, it was destroyed, but so was Draenor, yet Draenor's remnants were still inhabitable enough to have an expansion there. And in K'aresh's case, we already have at least one character referencing returning there already.

Guess Blizz is saving Undermine and Kezan as a scraping the bottom of the barrel expansion idea for the future

[Pheraz]

I have the feeling that Metzen might not be the biggest fan of this robo elune idea, so I think they still most likely find a way to make that "sister" a bff or something.

[Nibelheimy]

I have the feeling that Metzen might not be the biggest fan of this robo elune idea, so I think they still most likely find a way to make that "sister" a bff or something.

Although I feel we will never truly find out what Elune is (and maybe we shouldn't). Making her into anything resembling shadowlands robots is absolutely the last thing they should do.

[Khaza-R]

Guess Blizz is saving Undermine and Kezan as a scraping the bottom of the barrel expansion idea for the future

Tbh, Undermine has a lot potential if they treat it like a Hearthstone Gadgetzan on crack. I think people are a little too stuck on the idea its all just goblins and sludge.

But also, a completely abandoned island doesn't really sound like patch zone material.

Maybe the next patch takes place entirely inside the Beledar? That would definitely be the most unique zone they've ever done.

[Teriz]

Guess Blizz is saving Undermine and Kezan as a scraping the bottom of the barrel expansion idea for the future

An expansion would be preferable TBH. An expansion would give that area the justice it deserves as a continent-sized city as intended by Blizzard in vanilla. It would also facilitate the Tinker class.

That said, if 11.1 isn't Undermine, I do wonder when they plan on implementing it. It's clearly coming at some point, since it's getting name dropped rather consistently, and Gazlowe is moving into a more visible role.

[Zardas]

An expansion would be preferable TBH. An expansion would give that area the justice it deserves as a continent-sized city as intended by Blizzard in vanilla. It would also facilitate the Tinker class.

That said, if 11.1 isn't Undermine, I do wonder when they plan on implementing it. It's clearly coming at some point, since it's getting name dropped rather consistently, and Gazlowe is moving into a more visible role.

It would be pretty easy to fit Gazlow and goblins in an underground expansion without "wasting" Undermine. They could very well just pull out a smaller goblin town or outpost from their ass and make it zone, that would be a nice way to test the water for the appeal of goblins for the general playerbase.