Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Sondrelk]

Were there any hints about Undermine before?

Ignoring the weird Goblin short story in the lead up to the expansion that currently goes nowhere. And the removed area east of the Ringing Deeps that seemed to have Goblin assets.
The strongest hints at Undermine is the currently unresolved plot thread of why the Goblins are in Khaz Algar, and where the tunnel they arrived through is.
Undermine being underground, and TWW being billed as the underground expansion.
And all the data mined stuff about Goblin Raid. Including stuff like what looked like a Goblin themed staff that is currently unused in the game.

[Teriz]

I mean...

WoW's always had the sci-fi stuff regarding it. Idk why people were always doubting me on that. This Hearthstone expac basically just doubles down on this concept by having it be focused on the pre-Draenor Draenei.

Yeah, I'm just curious if aspects of this is some sort of clue about material that's going to appear in Midnight. The army of light is supposed to deal with the forces of the void, and the army of the light is heavily Draenei-based.

[Kyux]

Eh, we still use it as a source for lots of things regarding the formation of Azeroth.

Still, though, I keep coming back to Kalimdor's name. Why was Azeroth's "Pangea" known as the Land of Eternal Starlight?

Here's from a Wiki, which presumably quotes Chronicles:



So by the time the Titan-forged finished their work of shaping Azeroth and taking care of the Well of Eternity, day turned into night.

And for some reason, they described it as "eternal".

But every landmass anywhere, and on any planet, should have access to a night sky, so that's not unique to Kalimdor.

Why was this piece of land associated specifically with eternal starlight?

Why did Dark Trolls roam Azeroth at the time, and why did they turn into Night Elves when influenced by the Well of Eternity?

Was darkness, i.e. the night, Azeroth's natural state at the time? Is Midnight, the thing which presumably happens in the expansion with the same name (unless the name simply suggests a state of despair in general, when things are at their darkest), just a return to what it was like back then?

Did Elune sort of constantly watch over this continent?

Had the Old Gods covered it in darkness in a final and desperate act?

Did the Well cause arcane stars to show in the heavens?

I don't have an explanation for why it was named that but I suspect Dark Trolls and Night Elves were called that because they were nocturnal or crepuscular (first time legitimately using that word in a sentence). I always assumed that based on nothing but it made sense to me.

Maybe primordial Azeroth had much denser forest coverage so it was literally darker and seemed to be in night more often (i.e. seemingly longer nights due to tree coverage)?

Then I suspect Night Elves called it Kalimdor because they were out and about at night and saw the stars and used the Titan language. Idk.

[Eldryth]

Yes. The Chronicles were written from the Titans' point of view, and the Titans' view of creation turned out to be bizarre, which is why this idea was possible. In addition, the commentary of Neltharion added in Dragonflight seems to support this suspicion to some extent.

It's very plausible, I've wondered whether the great conspiracy we'll see in TLT might be something along those lines myself but I don't think I ever got around to posting about it. There's also this standing order from Odyn (which we found in Dragonflight Uldaman):

Second: Attribute all accomplishments and works of wonder to the titans alone.

Despite the relentless arguments made by some of you, this is not a fallacy. After all, can anything truly be said to exist until it has been ordered? Of course not.

Therefore, it is irrefutable that the titans are the source of all creation.

To the Titans, whether they actually created something or ordered something that already exists is a distinction without a difference. Even if they merely altered something that already exists, they would just claim the end result as entirely their creation and not acknowledge what came before, as they don't even recognize the existence of anything not shaped by them. As such, even if races like Dwarves, Gnomes, and Vyrkul(/Humans, if the Vyrkul physique itself was one of the Titans' changes) existed before their Titanforged counterparts, the Titans would still claim the Titanforged were created by them from scratch regardless. And they wouldn't even consider it to be a lie under the twisted logic shown in this Edict.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

WoW's always had the sci-fi stuff regarding it. Idk why people were always doubting me on that. This Hearthstone expac basically just doubles down on this concept by having it be focused on the pre-Draenor Draenei.

You're entirely right about that. Unfortunately, some executions are more palatable than others. In TBC, as bad as the story itself was, the worldbuilding was generally very palatable and didn't feel wholly anathema to what the setting used to be. Conversely, recent executions in science-fantasy concepts in WoW have not been as palatable as they were then.

[huth]

To the Titans, whether they actually created something or ordered something that already exists is a distinction without a difference. Even if they merely altered something that already exists, they would just claim the end result as entirely their creation and not acknowledge what came before, as they don't even recognize the existence of anything not shaped by them. As such, even if races like Dwarves, Gnomes, and Vyrkul(/Humans, if the Vyrkul physique itself was one of the Titans' changes) existed before their Titanforged counterparts, the Titans would still claim the Titanforged were created by them from scratch regardless. And they wouldn't even consider it to be a lie under the twisted logic shown in this Edict.

While we certainly can't rule it out, for now, this is just Odyn's stance on the matter, not the Titan's which we simply don't know. And it's certainly not a unanimous view amongst the Watchers.

[Mace]

They would all be more Male heavy if your going off major characters.

Just look at the horde and alliance cast and you know for BFA, its mostly male.

Shadowland only really has jIana and Sylvanas, so mostly male.

DF going to be the closest with Alex chromie Yesra Ver and Tydrna. compared to the 3 blacks Noz and Tyr.

Keep in mind though these are just some quick lsit.

Winter Queen? Archon? Tyrande? Users? Dralar? Vashj - for shadowlands. Although Sykvanas was the main focus for that expabsion

[Lahis]

Any ideas for 11.0.7 patch?

Since 11.0.5 has nothing to do with TWW story, 11.0.7 should set up either Rootlands or Undermine, whichever happens to be the 11.1 zone.

[Jaggler]

Winter Queen? Archon? Tyrande? Users? Dralar? Vashj - for shadowlands. Although Sykvanas was the main focus for that expabsion

I wouldn't really count Vashj as a major character, really. She was a side character in Maldraxxus.
Shadowlands was full of male characters:
Jailer, Bolvar, Primus, Renathal, Denathrius, Anduin, Thrall, Pelagos (turned into a main character later on).
If we step down to the level of Vashj as a character worth counting we got Herne, Korayn, Dreamweaver, Ara'lon, both Morgraines, Kel'thuzad, Marileth, Theotar, Uther etc. those are just the ones i can remember off the top of my head.

You really have to argue in bad faith if you want to say that SL was somehow female-heavy.

I think it's mostly being balanced rather well the last few expansions (of course 100% balance is almost impossible).

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Any ideas for 11.0.7 patch?

11.0.7 :The Biggest Dig: After the Fall of Ansurek and with the Nerubians in disarray, the Goblins of Undermine have moved into Azj'kahet to siphon the Black Blood for yet unknown reasons. Push them back in a new World Event. Story quests leading into Undermine (Pandaren heritage finally?)
11.1: Dark Dealings: Xal'atath struck a deal with Gallywix. Promising riches beyond comprehension for his assistance in harvesting more Black Blood and fixing the Dark Heart, just like the Goblins once fixed Deathwings disintegrating form after he gave in to the whispers.

11.1.5: Assault on the Rootlands: With the Black Blood constantly being disturbed, the roots of Elun'ahir are threatened to be consumed by the Void. Despite their reservations, the Haranir reach out to adventureres to help them stem the tide of corruption. The roots are spreading above the undersea now and in the final fight one of the roots breaches Beledar, turning the crystal permanently dark.
11.1.7: Forces from Beyond: With Beledar falling into darkness, new strange visitors are seen throughout Khaz Algar. Ethereals set up camp on the Isle of Dorn and beneath and try to spread the Void. Vanquish them and find out where they come from.

11.2: Fading Light: With the Ethereals pushed back, the Earthen, Arathi and Nerubians found out, where the Ethereal invasion started: The now void corrupted Beledar. The forces of Khaz Algar unite with the Horde and Alliance to make a final push into the Dark Star to purge it of its corruption and restore it to it's former glory.

11.2.5: Azerothian Archive: Secrets of Khaz Algar. You Dig.
11.2.7: Nightfall: With her gambit with the Beledar failed, Xal'atath is looking for another powerful location to usher in the Void to Azeroth. Luckily for her, the memories of her High Elven host-body hold a possible solution for her next scheme.

[Auxis]

Do you even have to place to finish the WQs? Don't you just have to make it to the end of the race? Would be easy even with like 300 MS and 20 fps.

Yeh you only need to finish for the WQ completion.

But there are bronze/silver/gold completions in 3 difficulties which won't be easy unless you manage to travel to a dead layer or make a character on a dead realm.

[MauroDiogo]

Kind of interesting that we have mention of the Goblins and the Arathi showing interesting in building airships in the future and the new Hearthstone set has a lot of cards playing off a Starship keyword.
I'm wondering if we do help the Goblins and Arathi build Airships and over the course of the Saga, the technology is then evolved and used to craft Starships?

Chris Metzen did say in an interview that they are building up to something "ridiculous". Which seems to imply grandiose or cosmic in scale. Since he left us with Legion before he went away for a few years and we know where the Lore went throughout the expansion.

And yeah, we already have Naaru starships in the Lore, but they are very few that we know of and even less of them are in or have ties to Azeroth. So we might need more Starships to transport a lot more than we did in Legion if we do end up fighting something on a more cosmic scale.

[Alanar]

Azshara called Jaina a "novice mage". I would not put much thought into insults of a high on ego villain.

I mean... Azshara is obviously much stronger in the arcane.

I dont know why we would question that or take that with a grain. Jaina is a typical mage that is always as strong as the story wants her to be. But like other have said, she suppose to be strong in teleportation, but we know characters who do it better.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Winter Queen? Archon? Tyrande? Users? Dralar? Vashj - for shadowlands. Although Sykvanas was the main focus for that expabsion

Every one but Tyrande I’d argue aren’t major characters as they do little to nothing but stand there or in the archons case get stabbed.

Like I don’t think any of them go to Zm or the maw all expan.

[huth]

I mean... Azshara is obviously much stronger in the arcane.

I dont know why we would question that or take that with a grain. Jaina is a typical mage that is always as strong as the story wants her to be. But like other have said, she suppose to be strong in teleportation, but we know characters who do it better.

Sure, but that doesn't make Jaina a novice. Also, Jaina's forte is long-distance mass teleportation, which is not what Occuleth is good at. Or Azshara, for that matter, who has actually shown relatively little competence in that area.

[Mace]

Sure, but that doesn't make Jaina a novice. Also, Jaina's forte is long-distance mass teleportation, which is not what Occuleth is good at. Or Azshara, for that matter, who has actually shown relatively little competence in that area.

Story too vague for any definitive argument here, they can still pretty much make any character as strong or weak as the story needs them to be, it's the main reason for their hallmark vagueness in their franchises lore

[Eurhetemec]

Kind of interesting that we have mention of the Goblins and the Arathi showing interesting in building airships in the future and the new Hearthstone set has a lot of cards playing off a Starship keyword. I'm wondering if we do help the Goblins and Arathi build Airships and over the course of the Saga, the technology is then evolved and used to craft Starships?

I feel like we've been burned by interpreting stuff from Hearthstone so many times at this point that it's kind of a suicide mission, lore and plot-wise, to expect anything from Hearthstone to have any bearing on WoW whatsoever. Sometimes concepts or aesthetics or characters appear there first, but more often they appear there and never in actual WoW.

Chris Metzen did say in an interview that they are building up to something "ridiculous". Which seems to imply grandiose or cosmic in scale. Since he left us with Legion before he went away for a few years and we know where the Lore went throughout the expansion.

And yeah, we already have Naaru starships in the Lore, but they are very few that we know of and even less of them are in or have ties to Azeroth. So we might need more Starships to transport a lot more than we did in Legion if we do end up fighting something on a more cosmic scale.

I don't think WoW players of any kind would be really very happy if the game suddenly became spaceship-focused. It's fine for them to be used for transport, as backdrops for battles, and so on, but I don't think they could really be a much bigger thing than they were in Legion without beginning to push people away from the whole WoW vibe.

Metzen's idea of "ridiculous" is pretty broad so it's hard to read much in to that.

Whatever they do, I expect they'll be aiming for a massive "reset" to more standard WoW-style fantasy* after The Last Titan, together with a level squish. If we get a real world revamp, it'll probably be then.

* = which is not "medieval fantasy", I have no idea why people say that, it's always combined elements of steampunk, D&D-style generic fantasy, heavy metal and prog rock album covers, late 1990s Image comics, revival-era Disney, and more.

[Ersula]

I don't think WoW players of any kind would be really very happy if the game suddenly became spaceship-focused. It's fine for them to be used for transport, as backdrops for battles, and so on, but I don't think they could really be a much bigger thing than they were in Legion without beginning to push people away from the whole WoW vibe.

Metzen's idea of "ridiculous" is pretty broad so it's hard to read much in to that.

Whatever they do, I expect they'll be aiming for a massive "reset" to more standard WoW-style fantasy* after The Last Titan, together with a level squish. If we get a real world revamp, it'll probably be then.

* = which is not "medieval fantasy", I have no idea why people say that, it's always combined elements of steampunk, D&D-style generic fantasy, heavy metal and prog rock album covers, late 1990s Image comics, revival-era Disney, and more.

The first warcraft game features an alien invasion. Prog Rock also includes a lot of cosmic stuff. Warcraft is He-man fantasy, even if people forget He-man starts with he-man's mother being an american astronaut that gets stranded on Eternia. And I don't agree with the shadowlands takeaway that people didn't respond well to cosmic themes: The theming was fine; the storytelling & mechanics were bad.

[MauroDiogo]

I don't think WoW players of any kind would be really very happy if the game suddenly became spaceship-focused. It's fine for them to be used for transport, as backdrops for battles, and so on, but I don't think they could really be a much bigger thing than they were in Legion without beginning to push people away from the whole WoW vibe.

Metzen's idea of "ridiculous" is pretty broad so it's hard to read much in to that.

Whatever they do, I expect they'll be aiming for a massive "reset" to more standard WoW-style fantasy* after The Last Titan, together with a level squish. If we get a real world revamp, it'll probably be then.

* = which is not "medieval fantasy", I have no idea why people say that, it's always combined elements of steampunk, D&D-style generic fantasy, heavy metal and prog rock album covers, late 1990s Image comics, revival-era Disney, and more.

The first warcraft game features an alien invasion. Prog Rock also includes a lot of cosmic stuff. Warcraft is He-man fantasy, even if people forget He-man starts with he-man's mother being an american astronaut that gets stranded on Eternia. And I don't agree with the shadowlands takeaway that people didn't respond well to cosmic themes: The theming was fine; the storytelling & mechanics were bad.

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not implying WoW taking a huge turn into a hard sci-fi focus, what I meant was more along what Ersula mentioned. You can explore Cosmical, Astrological themes while keeping the aesthetic and feel of it all more grounded in fantasy and without going too deep into full on sci-fi.

If we did see actual Starships being made and used, I was thinking they'd be just for transport. I didn't consider actual space battles and the like. Just a huge fleet of Starships to transport us somewhere else. And in WoW's case, we can't discredit space travelling because... 1) The whole WoW Mythology starts with and always has Cosmic entities and dimensional planes at their core and 2) We've already done space travelling before.

And between Ethereals, the Void, Burning Legion, the Naaru, Elune & Titans, there are a lot of places in the cosmos for some good ol' interstellar shenanigans.

[Alanar]

Sure, but that doesn't make Jaina a novice. Also, Jaina's forte is long-distance mass teleportation, which is not what Occuleth is good at. Or Azshara, for that matter, who has actually shown relatively little competence in that area.

She was still able to block both from teleporting. Even in some of her spell descriptions you see things like: she is so strong in the arcane so she is able to cast spells while casting a spell. Just as an example, we have enough to know what she is capeable off. Basically being one if not the strongest in her field.

As of Jaina.. sure she aint a novice, but she aint on Azsharas level. We had human mages before her who did remarkable things as well. As I said, jaina is just a very typical character with blizz who is there as a strong as she needs to be, which results in questionable power levels. Sometimes she is op and sometimes she cant do shit type of thing. Sure "story", but its not very consistant either. In the end tho..her teleportation skills are really what ever and arent that groundbreaking.

I guess Azshara saying that to her, is more in the context of age/experience. Azshara has been around a lot longer and spits on lesser races. She aint wrong tbh.

Ps: fyi I never said Jaina is a novice.

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Story too vague for any definitive argument here, they can still pretty much make any character as strong or weak as the story needs them to be, it's the main reason for their hallmark vagueness in their franchises lore

This is correct. There are also to many inconsistancies with her as well. In general comparing powerlevels in wow is the most idiotic thing you can do anway. However you can make an argument about experience. Azshara is 10k+old highborne vs how old is Jaina?..

[Mace]

This is correct. There are also to many inconsistancies with her as well. In general comparing powerlevels in wow is the most idiotic thing you can do anway. However you can make an argument about experience. Azshara is 10k+old highborne vs how old is Jaina?..

Yep, but remember how frightened 10k + year old Thalyssra was of Jaina when the horde went in to rescue Talanji and how ridiculous that came across to many who understood the lore of the Highborne, power levels have no metric, we don't even know how to measure them. At least in other stories, like Wheel of Time, there is some explanation of power levels. We know that some people are born stronger in the one power than others, males and female also have varying strength, but finesse matters too, and there are strengths in different elements of the one power, like in earth, fire, wind, water or spirit with some having special skills and talents with certain weaves and abilities.


No such thing in warcraft.. power and even a measure of capacity is completely undefined. Was Azshara more powerful because she is born that way? or is it merely intelligence and knowledge that develop power in the arcane? The arcane is a talent it seems, WotA says all night elves can use and learn magic, but not all are talented enough to pursue a career or life as a mage, presumably they had standards, that would have been quite high back then - but what that means compared today is completely unknown.


And it isn't just power levels that are vague and determined by the narrative of the moment, the worse is numbers. Numbers of a race, no definition at all, so they can just spawn who and what they want with as many quantities as whatever zone/plot story they conceive of requires, and free themselves of the need to remember their own lore. It's so ridiculous I wonder how I was so drawn to this for so long - and just ignored how much garbage it is - they have no respect for their own lore, it is far from a priority, the story can chop and change as if it's not important, as one minute things can be so and the next minute not at all. Things keep changing, and what was originally said seems quite irrelevant in the chase for a new thrill, as if they can't be bothered to try and at least make it consistent.. too much effort to give their lore team, or just not important to care enough.

So if they don't care, why should I?

I resent them for not trying hard enough, for teasing us into the world then not living up to an acceptable and decent level of writing, consistency and scrutiny - all un-necessary. Just treating it as important as the art, the systems, the music and other production elements could have yielded so much better.