Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Kiivar86]

Yeah, still not the same as the Void literally wanting to massacre you every time you go near it, though. From Order, we've at least got beautiful locations like Ulduar and empathic creatures like various titan-forged, Watchers and Keepers. Eonar, Freyja, Thorim, etc.

Its still not an outcome that would be good for mortals in general and certainly not one mortals thrive in, especially given the whole living to adulthood is impressive thing.

I know Ulderoth is the "titan utopia" timeline, but the fact that it was so dominated by the planets wildlife and nature, i would rather argue that it's more a timeline dominated specifically by Eonar, rather than something Aman'thul would organize and approve of.

It's less a "Ordered Titan utopia" and more a "What if Eonar went ham on Azeroth".

You may be right but Soridormi calls it a timeline where the pantheon saw their experiments through, so I would assume they all had a hand in some regard. Plus wouldn't be the first time a titan experiment was rather fecund.

[Jaggler]

Always odd to see all the forces treated as if there equal.

Light demands nothing and gives beneficial powers freely as long as one has faith, people who use it can do bad as can the Narru but by its nature it’s a power for good centred around healing and protecting and even the Narru don’t agree on doing bad things with it like Xera.

Life is well, life. It gives rise to possibility which can lead to parts growing out of control but it longs for balance with the other elements as per the spirit of the wilds.

Arcane/order can go bad like in ulduar but it’s been mostly a benefit and can be reasoned with as seen in ulduar (might change in TLT.).

Then there’s

Fel, Chaos death and destruction with no up sides.

Death, as seen on Azeroth. dampening of the soul and a hunger to destroy the living, no up sides.

Void, madness mutation and oblivion, no up sides.

You are comparing two different things. The mild effects of Life Order and Light with the extremes of chaos death and void.

In its most extreme forms Light doesnt allow dissent and eridactes everything that thinks different (see AU Draenor).

In its most extreme form Life prevents civilization and removes death with the ones which should die shuffling around as shambling husks.

In its most extreme form Order is not real life, but just robots watching over machines, fulfilling their edicts.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

You are comparing two different things. The mild effects of Life Order and Light with the extremes of chaos death and void.

In its most extreme forms Light doesnt allow dissent and eridactes everything that thinks different (see AU Draenor).

In its most extreme form Life prevents civilization and removes death with the ones which should die shuffling around as shambling husks.

In its most extreme form Order is not real life, but just robots watching over machines, fulfilling their edicts.

None of those are extremes for void Fel or death those are the basics.

Extreme Fel is a lifeless burned world like Argus, extreme death is Arthas ruling a dead world of puppets, extreme void is the black empire.

We have never seen extreme light, we saw Xera or her equivalent leading a crusade and as we know not all Narru agree with her we don’t know if said crusade if the goal of the light or jsut hers.

We also haven’t seen extreme life we saw the spore mound out of control and as stated in chronicles it would have consumed life it self killing the world.

Order of course we have seen further along turn the other two with the ordering of Azeroth, and instead of it jsut being robots we see them seeding life with the wild gods, letting mortals do as they will, and the robots developing into people them selfs. Even the alternate time line has them watching mortals and and seeing how they do even if said doing isn’t very good.

[Dracullus]

Just caught up with the new lore revealed this week about Beledar, the Manifold and this new "Acclimation" being revealed.

So we're definitely about to find another Beledar-like crystal in the next patch? Probably in/around/near Undermine?

Or perhaps one in the alleged "Rootlands" area?

Also... I'm starting to suspect the real source for the Arathi Empire's "Sacred Flame" might just be... azerite.

Isn't Undermine speculation dying since Goblins are talking about new island on PTR?

Personally I like cohesive continents, so I would rather see Undermine/Kezan in South Sea together with Plunder Island, Tel'Abim etc. where single map is impossible anyway.

And if we see more crystals, I would rather expect them in "core of azeroth" (maybe it's Rootlands, maybe not) zone. Will be sick if all of them change from Void to Light at same time.

[huth]

I think Warcraft Order is more about Civilization than a D&D notion of Law. Titans want everything to have a place in a society moreso than they want blind obedience. They want stable structures.

I'd say it's split between Light and Order. Order represents the more physical aspects, while Light is more about strict adherence and societal rigidity.

Similar for Void and Disorder.

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He's comparing it that way because the Void literally has no moderate side to it.

There's no humble Void-dude just chilling around in space, enjoying the lovely vistas and happy to be alive. There's no kingdom of the Void, with people celebrating Feast of Winter Void and growing Void fruit in the garden.

The Void is exclusively shit. There's no upside to it.

The Light, meanwhile, does have upsides to it. It benefits mortals in very real and practical ways. It helps them to thrive, and feel better, and defend themselves.

The Void would have those same people sacrificed at an altar.

Alleria doesn't exist?

You're comparing extreme manifestations of one force to moderate ones of another. We've seen extremes of either and neither is better than the other.

[Thomir]

Locus Walker seems ... chill.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Locus Walker seems ... chill.

But in the same vein as Alleria he’s an enemy of the void he’s not trying to push its aims.

[Nymrohd]

Wait, do we trust Locus Walker? I always figured he is probably going to end up being the real villain who manipulated Alleria all along. Like if Xal is the Harbinger of Dimensius, maybe Locus is the Harbinger of a rival Void Lord. I assume the Void Lords are messy and hate each other after all.

[Eldryth]

But there's no Titan going "Muahaha, I will destroy this world for funsies. Let evil prevail!"

Because if they do, as we all know, they're suddenly no longer a being of Order. See Sargeras.

The Twilight Hermit's dialogue added to tease the Worldsoul Saga during Dragonflight cast some doubt on all of that:

The titans care only about their precious Order. They would sacrifice anything to achieve it--including their own followers.
Even the Dark Titan had a pattern to his actions. A cold logic intended to impose his perfect vision, and the willingness to eradicate existence if he could not achieve his ends.
Do you think the rest of his kind are any different? Only in method, not in goal.

If his- admittedly biased- info is correct (as much of the other stuff he says seems to be), then Sargeras is still fundamentally a creature of Order, bending the Fel to his designs. Which does make sense- he did effectively enslave the various demons to achieve his goal, and we've never actually seen them in their natural state. And while we can only speculate as to what demons would normally be like, I can hardly imagine them being unified enough to pose as great a threat as the Legion did. I always pictured a mass of demons fighting each other for supremacy- growing strong, conquering, and eventually being killed, reincarnating, and starting all over, but rarely getting involved with the rest of the cosmos. But we may never truly know at this point.

Anyway, the point is, Sargeras's destructive crusade may well have been a twisted form of his Titanic nature, not him changing to Fel. He and the Pantheon both wanted to remake the universe to fit their exact vision, and they too may very well seek to destroy us if we no longer fit in it.

Wait, do we trust Locus Walker? I always figured he is probably going to end up being the real villain who manipulated Alleria all along. Like if Xal is the Harbinger of Dimensius, maybe Locus is the Harbinger of a rival Void Lord. I assume the Void Lords are messy and hate each other after all.

A lot of people don't, but as mysterious as he is, I've always got the feeling that his opposition to the void is sincere. He doesn't seem to be just a normal Ethereal though- my personal theory is that he's a small surviving fragment of K'aresh's Worldsoul that escaped being devoured by Dimensius.

[Nymrohd]

I mean he turned from Order to Disorder, didn't he? I suppose I always found it ironic that the Burning Legion had a very orderly army with military ranks and commanders, but nevertheless they are supposed to be the chaotic evil faction, seeking destruction wherever they go.

Sure the Burning Legion was mostly demons but it was ruled by Sargeras, Eredar and Nathrezim and none of them is inherently demonic.

[Raetary]

Extreme Fel is a lifeless burned world like Argus, extreme death is Arthas ruling a dead world of puppets, extreme void is the black empire.

Actually, extreme Death would be everyone being dead and sitting eternally in their perfect individually crafted afterlife for all eternity.
Which is not that different from the physical universe really.

As for the rest, Demons are very well capable of crafting civilizations for themselves, despite Fels destructive influence.
Their societal structures are obviously prone to.... well, chaos, war and mayhem, but we know of demonic societies and have interacted with moderate/independent demons already.
Sure, their planets would be largely destroyed or wastelands like Argus, but as we can clearly tell that doesn't really mean much to the Demons inhabiting those places.
They either don't care or thrive in them.

Same for the Void, which also can form and maintain civilizations.
The Black Empire was exactly that, and we might not like how it conducted itself but from what we can tell the Aqir and the Old Gods thrived during those times too.
Even the Void Ethereals, despite how insane most of them are, they do manage to organize and live in their Void infused states.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Actually, extreme Death would be everyone being dead and sitting eternally in their perfect individually crafted afterlife for all eternity.
Which is not that different from the physical universe really.

that’s death in its own realm not in the great dark, the d forces don’t act the same when out of there realms. Order not withstanding.

As for the rest, Demons are very well capable of crafting civilizations for themselves, despite Fels destructive influence.
Their societal structures are obviously prone to.... well, chaos, war and mayhem, but we know of demonic societies and have interacted with moderate/independent demons already.
Sure, their planets would be largely destroyed or wastelands like Argus, but as we can clearly tell that doesn't really mean much to the Demons inhabiting those places.
They either don't care or thrive in them.

Same for the Void, which also can form and maintain civilizations.
The Black Empire was exactly that, and we might not like how it conducted itself but from what we can tell the Aqir and the Old Gods thrived during those times too.
Even the Void Ethereals, despite how insane most of them are, they do manage to organize and live in their Void infused states.

And ya they have “society’s” but as you say they are pretty awful unless your part of that force.

[babalou1]

We already knew Xenedar was made of Argunite which is implied to be the crystalized blood of Argus's worldsoul. So the only thing that would be strange here is if Beledar is actually made of Azerite and not from some other worldsoul that crashed into Azeroth. The whole report could just explaining Naaru ships are made from worldsoul chunks.

This is exactly what i think too. Naaru ships are made from calcified Worldsoul essences.

This one in particular may or may not be a crystalized worldsoul essence from azeroth and may indeed be a crashed naaru ship or it IS from azeroth and a naaru (a sick/injured one at that) is currently trying to make it into a ship (which would explain the runes)

[Nymrohd]

Actually, extreme Death would be everyone being dead and sitting eternally in their perfect individually crafted afterlife for all eternity.
Which is not that different from the physical universe really.

As for the rest, Demons are very well capable of crafting civilizations for themselves, despite Fels destructive influence.
Their societal structures are obviously prone to.... well, chaos, war and mayhem, but we know of demonic societies and have interacted with moderate/independent demons already.
Sure, their planets would be largely destroyed or wastelands like Argus, but as we can clearly tell that doesn't really mean much to the Demons inhabiting those places.
They either don't care or thrive in them.

Same for the Void, which also can form and maintain civilizations.
The Black Empire was exactly that, and we might not like how it conducted itself but from what we can tell the Aqir and the Old Gods thrived during those times too.
Even the Void Ethereals, despite how insane most of them are, they do manage to organize and live in their Void infused states.

Have we seen a demon civilization though that was not under the Legion's control? We don't know that was actually a thing do we?
As for the Black Empire, that's not really Void imo. The Old Gods are tools so they will not really be free expressions of Void since they have a very narrow purpose to fulfill.

[Raetary]

Ah yes, the Black Empire, a true utopia.

Maybe not to Jeremy, the Stormwind baker, but to Xshj'aku'shaktjs, the tentacle grower, who had a successful business and was protected by his Old God overlords?

I mean, we know the Empire had some meaningful advancements that even Odyn found significant enough to propagandize against.

[huth]

And ya they have “society’s” but as you say they are pretty awful unless your part of that force.

Which isn't much different from those of Light, Life or Order.

Which is ultimately the point. None of them is that great if they aren't tempered by the others.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Which isn't much different from those of Light, Life or Order.

Which is ultimately the point. None of them is that great if they aren't tempered by the others.

We have seen many light and order soecitys, they are better in every way then Void or Fel, atleast by our and the people of Azeroth's standards.

Life less so though one could argue that the shamanistic orcs were one given there working with the spirit of the wilds.

[Nymrohd]

I'd say you definitely don't want one of them dominating but you also don't want a balance of all Six. We haven't really seen any truly redeeming qualities from Fel and Void nor have we seen what a Death-inclined mortal world would look like. So I don't see why you'd want them in the mix. Life, Light and Order are of course not fully benevolent, but they are more so than the other three and a balance of them is probably the best case scenario.

[huth]

We have seen many light and order soecitys, they are better in every way then Void or Fel, atleast by our and the people of Azeroth's standards.

Life less so though one could argue that the shamanistic orcs were one given there working with the spirit of the wilds.

I would argue that we actually haven't. The vast majority of societies we've seen doesn't overly lean to any one force.

And i'm not convinced that a heavily authoritarian society of fanatics is really better, even if it looks that way at a glance.

For Life, just look at the Botani.

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I'd say you definitely don't want one of them dominating but you also don't want a balance of all Six. We haven't really seen any truly redeeming qualities from Fel and Void nor have we seen what a Death-inclined mortal world would look like. So I don't see why you'd want them in the mix. Life, Light and Order are of course not fully benevolent, but they are more so than the other three and a balance of them is probably the best case scenario.

Freedom and independence are from Disorder and Void. What you're forgetting is that the mortal realm is by and large a world that is born of a balance of all forces already. You don't see the qualities because you take them for granted.

A Death-inclined mortal world would just be a barren rock. Not terribly interesting. For that matter, Death has reason to not want to create such worlds. They need people to live and die.

[Nibelheimy]

We already know we don't want an order inclined world either. Are people forgetting Algalon? Aman'thul would not want us on the planet.

A world fully inclined by order is not a world we belong on. Don't forget the big reset button out in the desert. All of the current playable races exist outside of the titans design and would immediately be reset by the pantheon if they were in any position to do so.

All of this needs to be viewed from the perspective of the average grunt in Stormwind and Orgrimmar. Do they belong and thrive in any of the theoretical cosmically dominated Azeroth's? The answer is no.