Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Nightshade711]

Unless they retcon it, Blizzard kinda made it to where the First Ones are engraved in the Cosmology no matter what (Especially since the pattern is their design, and the cosmic forces are quite literally portions of themselves).

So, like it or not, they're here to stay.

New retcon:
“The First Ones are actually just a conspiracy theory and the real ‘first ones’ were just the titans ordering the cosmos”

[Joshuaj]

New retcon:
“The First Ones are actually just a conspiracy theory and the real ‘first ones’ were just the titans ordering the cosmos”

That's silly.

[Khaza-R]

And it is Durotar crest btw. Back in a day of WC3 Durotar was considered kingdom, you know?



Other is crest of fallen kingdom of Lordaeon. So its slightly counts too.
NE is not even crest. NEs didn't have kingdom in a first place. Scourge had Lich King, so it was kingdom?

You know I just realized the Night Elf one is missing the owl for some reason why the other 3 are pretty accurate to their WC3 depiction.

[Joshuaj]

I'm on board as long as it's an overall nice guy in a black robe riding a white horse named Binky.

I totally forgot, that was the Grim Reapers Horse, wasn't it?

Lmao, imagine if Progenitor Death shows up in the Mortal realm someway somehow, and it takes a Grim Reaper esc appearance with an automa horse named Binky LMAOOO! Tbf here, if the Progenitors had a non-High Table appearance for mortal conversation and whatnot, I could definitely see them as hooded figures, much like the dark rider statues on the Dark Portal, or the hooded figures at Torghast and the Everliving Statuette, etc.

[Xilurm]

New retcon:
“The First Ones are actually just a conspiracy theory and the real ‘first ones’ were just the titans ordering the cosmos”

That's silly.

There's actually a whole theory video from Xaxas about that.

[Nymrohd]

New retcon:
“The First Ones are actually just a conspiracy theory and the real ‘first ones’ were just the titans ordering the cosmos”

While First Ones seem to be a reprise of the Pantheon's theme, aesthetically they are clearly distinct from the Pantheon. Aesthetics matter for a visual medium like a game, probably quite more than narrative redundancy. Plus the First Ones lock in perfectly with Legion lore about the conflict between Void and Light (and by extension the Six Forces) being far older than the Pantheon.

[Alanar]

There's actually a whole theory video from Xaxas about that.

People still do that...? What a waste of time.

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December Trading Post is W3 focused:

Its because of the anniversary. Its not really w3 focused at all, just this as a nod.

[Joshuaj]

There's actually a whole theory video from Xaxas about that.

I'm aware. I talked with him about it, and he quite literally made it because he didn't like the idea of the First Ones being above the Titans. The video was made VIA emotional reasons, rather than logical ones, and it very much shows.

"Zereth Mortis was made in the Nether" is not really a good argument to make.

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Reminder, I can clearly tell he likes the lore, hell, I've seen other videos from him, and I can very much see he has passion and can lock in when he needs to, but you can tell that Progenitor video, as well edited as it is, was also made VIA wishful thinking and emotional bias.

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There are a lot of reasons for why the First Ones can't logically be the Titans. One of the many factors is that, well, their architecture is quite literally different. Unless you're going to tell me that the Titans made it different intentionally, which I then have to ask: Why?

If they made it different across the Shadowlands alone, I can sort of see an argument to be made there (granted, I have some big counters regarding that as well), but it's different across Zereth Mortis as well, and the Eternal Ones are forbidden from entering there. If the Titans are the First Ones, and they forbid the Eternal Ones from entering Zereth Mortis, they wouldn't have much reason to worry about them seeing their technology and whatnot. But then that raises the question, why is it still different?

And how the hell can they make forges as powerful as the Forge of Afterlives, or the Machine of Origination? And what's up with the Heart of the Sepulcher being in the very heart of the cosmic design, where all 6 forces are shown in their most primal state?

Lots of things don't add up when arguing "Titans = First Ones" BS, or so. Also, didn't Xaxas argue that the Titans made the First Ones as pure "arcane" beings? Cause there is a big issue with that as well, primarily the fact that everything the First Ones' creations have utilized so far is anything BUT arcane. In fact, it's a whole different magic entire, AKA Creation Magic.

[SkyTides]

I think the first ones will not be retconned, but just left where they are - in history.
I imagine whatever they set up or created, they gave their whole being to, and are now basically gone. That way there doesn't need to be any more bigger bads than the cosmic forces.

I agree with previous posts that it would be fun to visit other worlds taken over by other cosmic forces. Personally I really enjoyed visiting the shadowlands in terms of the visuals and initial lore (excluding the jailor and some nonsense plot etc) Even though its clearly ordered, and probably not the 'real' force of Death

[Raetary]

Unless you're going to tell me that the Titans made it different intentionally, which I then have to ask: Why?

This is pretty silly.

The Titans repeatedly diverge from their primary Ulduar aesthetic.
Engine of Nalak'sha and the rest of Pandarias titan machinery, Uldir and its seals, all of Uldum, Stormheim and the Halls of Valor (which itself was even a section of Ulduar)

Even the Seat of the Pantheon is pretty distinct compared to what else we see on Azeroth.

Zereth Mortis also has a lot of overlapping aesthetic details to that of Titans facilities.
The highly geometric machinery and buildings, the runed and knotted accents, the energy beams that line their walls, the orbs with twisted surfaces and gyroscopic rings. (seriously, the Forge of Afterlives might as well just be a giant, repurposed Titan Orb)

It also doesn't help that the most recent titan facility we discovered, the Hall of Awakening, also has a distinct look but has the same diamond knots that we see in Zereth Mortis and its concept arts. (including an anima mote, which i feel like people are not talking about enough)

That said, i don't think they are the same.
The addition of Odyns propaganda notes and the connection that ZM has to the other Zereths very much establishes them as seperate entities.
The former because they are speficially mentioned as something different, the latter because that would mean the Titans would've already ordered the entire universe by now.

But its not exactly hard to come to the conclusion and i don't think Blizzard would have a hard time justifying it, if they do choose that route.
ZMs visuals are however not an argument, when the Titans themselves change their own visuals whenever they feel like it.

[Joshuaj]

This is pretty silly.

The Titans repeatedly diverge from their primary Ulduar aesthetic.
Engine of Nalak'sha and the rest of Pandarias titan machinery, Uldir and its seals, all of Uldum, Stormheim and the Halls of Valor (which itself was even a section of Ulduar)

Even the Seat of the Pantheon is pretty distinct compared to what else we see on Azeroth.

Zereth Mortis also has a lot of overlapping aesthetic details to that of Titans facilities.
The highly geometric machinery and buildings, the runed and knotted accents, the energy beams that line their walls, the orbs with twisted surfaces and gyroscopic rings. (seriously, the Forge of Afterlives might as well just be a giant, repurposed Titan Orb)

It also doesn't help that the most recent titan facility we discovered, the Hall of Awakening, also has a distinct look but has the same diamond knots that we see in Zereth Mortis and its concept arts. (including an anima mote, which i feel like people are not talking about enough)

That said, i don't think they are the same.
The addition of Odyns propaganda notes and the connection that ZM has to the other Zereths very much establishes them as seperate entities.
The former because they are speficially mentioned as something different, the latter because that would mean the Titans would've already ordered the entire universe by now.

But its not exactly hard to come to the conclusion and i don't think Blizzard would have a hard time justifying it, if they do choose that route.
ZMs visuals are however not an argument, when the Titans themselves change their own visuals whenever they feel like it.

Nice argument, but you forget 1 major factor: Those different Titan designs all still possess a couple major similarities:

1. They all have Keepers.

2. They're all made for the process of providing Order in some way.

And 3. They're all taken from different types of real life Mythology. Ulduar, Uldaman, etc take from Greek Myth (although the Keepers are named after Norse Myth). The Halls of Valor and Helheim take from Norse Myth (and, funny enough, the Halls of Valor were made after Odyn peered into the Shadowlands and took inspiration from Bastion, so there's that), Uldum and the Forge of Origination take from Egyptian Myth, literally any Titan machine and creation in Pandaria is taken from Chinese myth, and Uldir is taken from Aztec myth.

There is not anything close to stuff relating to Progenitor architecture in their designs. They can take influence from the Progenitors (as we've seen in the game quite a bit, tbh), but that's it.

Heck, all cosmic forces displayed so far take from different things, both IRL and fictional. The Shadowlands in particular take from different Deathly concepts (Such as 80s rock cover necrotic battlefields, a realm that's inspired by Elysium, Castlevania but WoW, a Celtic Miyazaki inspired eternal forest, and literal Super Hell that's based off different beliefs (Such as Christian Hell (Namely Dantes Inferno), and Tartarus). Oribos does also take from Greek Myth as well, but it's namely done VIA the infinite cycles and the whole "Arbiter" thing, with judgement. Even then, the Ouroboros is a thing that applies to every force, and the stuff shown at Oribos very much ain't Titan related, and is Death-focused.

But that's my point. It's different, they're used for different things, and no matter the influence or inspiration, they all come from the same source, and we see the other influences take from said source quite a bit. I'm surprised you and others haven't properly seen that yet.

Call it silly if you like, but that's on you. The game itself has quite literally told you the purposes of the forces and whatnot, and DF doubled down on the Progenitor stuff by having Odyn call the First Ones the actual makers. If you don't want to belief anything that's shown there, go on ahead.

Heck, I apparently didn't need to mention this, cause you yourself mention it in your reply to me lmao. And you also think they're different, so why make the counterargument? For Devils Advocate? Don't answer that. I can play along.

But don't say I didn't try to inform you on this stuff IF they double down on the Progenitor stuff again later on.

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As for the seat of the pantheon? That's still very Greek lol. Heck, pretty sure it's set up very much like the Greek Pantheons seat atop Olympus.

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And for the Halls of Awakening? I can see the similarities, but reminder that the Halls of Awakening stuff is also shown a lot with the Earthern and whatnot (Primarily with the Coreway). Could just be an architectural inspiration from the Titans? Though, I can also argue that the Halls of Awakening look VERY Aggramar inspired, whereas places like Oribos and Korthia have a different vibe altogether. I mean, for other examples of seeming inspiration or progeny, a lot of the Black Empires architecture is very much Progenitor inspired, namely with the stones and obelisks.

So, who knows? The Titans taking inspiration from their creators is definitely a good argument to make, especially if they want to spread a narrative that they themselves are "the creators", as to them, Order and Creation are one in the same, and they don't want mortals to know of the ACTUAL creators.

Also, what Anima mote? Cause it wouldn't be the first time the Titans studied anima (Ik they tried to say the MoP anima was different, but let's be real lol). Also, they worked with Death before, so them having some Anima would make sense.

[elderu]

I'm aware. I talked with him about it, and he quite literally made it because he didn't like the idea of the First Ones being above the Titans. The video was made VIA emotional reasons, rather than logical ones, and it very much shows.

I've never talked to you about anything. I don't know who you are, and you don't know the motivation/intentions behind my work because you never asked.

Stop lying about this to make your arguments seem legitimate.

Go ahead and please, critique in any manner but don't speak about my intentions like you know me. You can't know.

Carry on forum, but take this for what it is ^^

[MauroDiogo]

I was just about to post about something about the Shake Shack promotion and just saw that MMO-C posted about it a few minutes ago. So I found that a cool coincidence.

But! Mauro coming at you with something that could be a nothing burger (pun intended) but I think is interesting.

In the promotional photo that shows the full menu, there's a map of Kalimdor in the background. I recognised it instantly but it was a bit weird. It shows Kalimdor pre-Cataclysm, nothing stand out about that but it shows a water area just Southwest of Ahn Qiraj.

Having played the game since vanilla I know that they used to show an inaccesible part of Kalimdor just under Ahn Qiraj but it was NEVER a water area.



The closest map I could find is this one, but again, you can clearly see the differences with the landmass in the original WoW map and the Shake Shack map showing a water section instead. There are also some very topographical features in the Shake Shack map that do not match the original map. I've looked around for a while and there is no map of Azeroth at all that features the same details or an underwater section just below Ahn Qiraj.



This could be nothing at all of course. But it's interesting that for their marketing they used an asset that 1) does not exist online so I can only assume it was given to them by Blizzard 2) if given to them by Blizzard, pictures an area that does not exist in the game (yet?) but is one of the focus of the image. They could have focused on any other part of the planet but put a focus on something that's... Odd.

[FuujCraft]

Stealth Drop lol

[Makabreska]

Already out of underground?

[huth]

I was just about to post about something about the Shake Shack promotion and just saw that MMO-C posted about it a few minutes ago. So I found that a cool coincidence.

But! Mauro coming at you with something that could be a nothing burger (pun intended) but I think is interesting.

In the promotional photo that shows the full menu, there's a map of Kalimdor in the background. I recognised it instantly but it was a bit weird. It shows Kalimdor pre-Cataclysm, nothing stand out about that but it shows a water area just Southwest of Ahn Qiraj.

Having played the game since vanilla I know that they used to show an inaccesible part of Kalimdor just under Ahn Qiraj but it was NEVER a water area.

[IMG]

The closest map I could find is this one, but again, you can clearly see the differences with the landmass in the original WoW map and the Shake Shack map showing a water section instead. There are also some very topographical features in the Shake Shack map that do not match the original map. I've looked around for a while and there is no map of Azeroth at all that features the same details or an underwater section just below Ahn Qiraj.

[IMG]

This could be nothing at all of course. But it's interesting that for their marketing they used an asset that 1) does not exist online so I can only assume it was given to them by Blizzard 2) if given to them by Blizzard, pictures an area that does not exist in the game (yet?) but is one of the focus of the image. They could have focused on any other part of the planet but put a focus on something that's... Odd.

Frankly, to me that looks more like somebody messed up and C+P'd a piece of coastline over the bottom of Kalimdor.

[FuujCraft]

Also Arathi Ears for Kul Tiran and Humans aswell as Plunderstorm returning in early 2025

[Makabreska]

Features article:

https://www.wowhead.com/news/patch-1...er-31st-349474

[Sentynel]

Already out of underground?

Thank fuck.

Also:

Thrayir, Eyes of the Siren—an electrifying storm crow mount

Could this be the unsued storm crow finally making it to the game?

[Dracullus]

As I said in some previous post, Khaz Algar map has 3 empty spots:

1) On top there is place for new island
2) next to Azj'Kahet is most likely Rootlands
3) right to Ringing Deeps is place for (imo) either Undermine or some kind Azeroth core.

My money still for 11.1 in Rootlands and 11.2 deeper into Coreway. We should know for sure in 2 weeks.

Already out of underground?

Would be awesome if you can fly from Dorn to new island and then into Hallowfall.