Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Enrif]

Do you think they'll revamp the Northern Eastern Kingdoms while they're doing Avaloren? Cause, while there is a possibility there, wouldn't it also make sense to revamp Northern EK now, alongside Quel'thalas?

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The only reason they didn't revamp Quel'thalas was because they didn't know how to properly do that at the time. Had they been given the technology to revamp Quel'thalas during Cata, they would've done so. Pretty sure this was talked about by the Devs.

Norhtern EK is too big an area and would highly delude the themes of the expansion Light(sunwell! not lordaeron) and elves.

Avaloren will likely be it's own expansion, and i think it will happen after TLT but before a EK revamp, to incorporate whatever story happens in the Arathi Empire, to effect the Arathi Highlands area, as it is one of the most barren areas of the EKs, and would massively benefit from a more explored Arathi concept.

[Joshuaj]

Norhtern EK is too big an area and would highly delude the themes of the expansion Light(sunwell! not lordaeron) and elves.

Avaloren will likely be it's own expansion, and i think it will happen after TLT but before a EK revamp, to incorporate whatever story happens in the Arathi Empire, to effect the Arathi Highlands area, as it is one of the most barren areas of the EKs, and would massively benefit from a more explored Arathi concept.

The War Within isn't JUST about the Nerubians. What makes you think Midnight will be just about the Elves and the Sunwell?

There can be side plots and other stories throughout the expansion, though ultimately they would lead back to the main plot. Just have the Humans at Lordaeron battle eachother for a bit, only to try and come to an understanding, with them ultimately becoming a singular, Light-alligned faction building up to 12.1.

That way, for 12.1, which I believe to be focused at the Isle of Quel'danas, you would have the unified Elves, the Amani Trolls, and the united Human Light faction going up against the forces of the Void at the Sunwell.

And then for 12.2, you'd have the ruins of K'aresh, us facing off against either Dimensius or (imo) the Worldsoul of K'aresh, and us seeing a proper Light Vs Shadow war being waged in the background.

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Also, too big an area? I mean, considering Blizzard is revamping Northrend in TLT, I wouldn't consider Northern EK to be "too big" at all.

[Sondrelk]

Norhtern EK is too big an area and would highly delude the themes of the expansion Light(sunwell! not lordaeron) and elves.

Avaloren will likely be it's own expansion, and i think it will happen after TLT but before a EK revamp, to incorporate whatever story happens in the Arathi Empire, to effect the Arathi Highlands area, as it is one of the most barren areas of the EKs, and would massively benefit from a more explored Arathi concept.

How is it too big an area? Arathi Highlands and upwards is almost exactly the same size as the Dragon Isles.
If you then combine some of the zones with a similar theme like the Plaguelands into one, or the Forsaken levelling zones into Lordaeron. Then you end up with an expansion launch sized parcel of content with four distinct zones. Of which only the Hinterlands/Arathi Highlands is a bit more on the vague side compared to Lordaeron and Plaguelands in terms of immediate relevance to Quel'thalas.

And besides. Why wouldn't Blizzard take the time now that we are going to spend time in Quel'thalas fighting the void to touch on the Arathi and build up to Avaloren? We know the Arathi are half elves. And we know that the Hallowfall expedition is going to be important for the fight against the void.
Why would we not focus on that story thread by bringing in stuff like the Forsaken, who are already relevant due to Sylvanas?

[Enrif]

The War Within isn't JUST about the Nerubians. What makes you think Midnight will be just about the Elves and the Sunwell?

There can be side plots and other stories throughout the expansion, though ultimately they would lead back to the main plot. Just have the Humans at Lordaeron battle eachother for a bit, only to try and come to an understanding, with them ultimately becoming a singular, Light-alligned faction building up to 12.1.

That way, for 12.1, which I believe to be focused at the Isle of Quel'danas, you would have the unified Elves, the Amani Trolls, and the united Human Light faction going up against the forces of the Void at the Sunwell.

And then for 12.2, you'd have the ruins of K'aresh, us facing off against either Dimensius or (imo) the Worldsoul of K'aresh, and us seeing a proper Light Vs Shadow war being waged in the background.

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Also, too big an area? I mean, considering Blizzard is revamping Northrend in TLT, I wouldn't consider Northern EK to be "too big" at all.

The War Within is not the Nerbuian expansion. It is the underground expansion, and it delivers with that in being mostly set underground. Completely different to compare. More apt would be Shadowlands or Dragonflight, which all contained their major stories in the major theme of the expansion, Death and Dragons. For Midnight it is Elves, Light and Shadow.

Your human plotline doesn't make sense. As there is no human faction in Lordaeron. The Forsaken are there. And the forsaken have no beef with the humans anymore, only the scarlet crusade. A light human based story line would be out of touch for lordaeron. Even for the plaguelands as the Argent Crusade isn't a human faction.

[Joshuaj]

How is it too big an area? Arathi Highlands and upwards is almost exactly the same size as the Dragon Isles.
If you then combine some of the zones with a similar theme like the Plaguelands into one, or the Forsaken levelling zones into Lordaeron. Then you end up with an expansion launch sized parcel of content with four distinct zones. Of which only the Hinterlands/Arathi Highlands is a bit more on the vague side compared to Lordaeron and Plaguelands in terms of immediate relevance to Quel'thalas.

And besides. Why wouldn't Blizzard take the time now that we are going to spend time in Quel'thalas fighting the void to touch on the Arathi and build up to Avaloren? We know the Arathi are half elves. And we know that the Hallowfall expedition is going to be important for the fight against the void.
Why would we not focus on that story thread by bringing in stuff like the Forsaken, who are already relevant due to Sylvanas?

Exactly this!

Listen, we all want Quel'thalas to be the major factor of Midnight. Nobody denies this. However, many fans also want to see more than just that this expac. If it is just Quel'thalas, that's okay, yeah? But, at the same time you'd be missing so much story and zone potential for a revamped Northern EK, especially since nobody really goes there anymore.

[Sondrelk]

Because imo, that'd waste a bunch of story potential regarding the Light for the Lordaeron region. Also, I do think the Isle of Quel'danas is gonna be saved for 12.1 (Basically, attribute it to Midnight's version of the Broken Shore).

What story potential would be wasted by having Lordaeron be relevant in Midnight?
The buildup to the Arathi Empire is relevant right now. The Scarlet Crusade potentially allying with them is relevant now. The Forsaken coming to terms with the actions of Sylvanas is most relevant when Silvermoon is.

I guess you could make a story where you defeat the Arathi Empire and see them attempt to reclaim the Eastern Kingdoms. But why would that be more interesting than when we inevitably go to their seat of power and see them in their full glory and might?

[Joshuaj]

The War Within is not the Nerbuian expansion. It is the underground expansion, and it delivers with that in being mostly set underground. Completely different to compare. More apt would be Shadowlands or Dragonflight, which all contained their major stories in the major theme of the expansion, Death and Dragons. For Midnight it is Elves, Light and Shadow.

Your human plotline doesn't make sense. As there is no human faction in Lordaeron. The Forsaken are there. And the forsaken have no beef with the humans anymore, only the scarlet crusade. A light human based story line would be out of touch for lordaeron. Even for the plaguelands as the Argent Crusade isn't a human faction.

Shadowlands still had a ton of different themes regarding Death, and the Dragon Isles had zones focused on each Dragonflight, and even included other races, as Blizzard knew Dragons alone wouldn't be enough to carry the expac.

Also, when I say "Human factions", I'm talking about the Silver Hand, the Argent Crusade, the Scarlet Crusade, the Arathi, and the Army of the Light. Could definitely have a whole plotline there.

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What story potential would be wasted by having Lordaeron be relevant in Midnight?
The buildup to the Arathi Empire is relevant right now. The Scarlet Crusade potentially allying with them is relevant now. The Forsaken coming to terms with the actions of Sylvanas is most relevant when Silvermoon is.

I guess you could make a story where you defeat the Arathi Empire and see them attempt to reclaim the Eastern Kingdoms. But why would that be more interesting than when we inevitably go to their seat of power and see them in their full glory and might?

I'm saying story potential would be wasted if you DIDN'T focus on all of Northern EK for Midnight.

I agree with you in that there'd be so much cool lore if you did include the whole northern region.

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Also, with the Arathi humans being present in Hallowfall, it's entirely possible that plot will just carry forward to Midnight, where we see the Arathi humans try and handle situations at the Northern Eastern Kingdoms. All while Turalyon and co are trying to figure things out between the different light worshipping human factions.

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This could lead to a whole zones worth of leveling, as well as a potential end game campaign that could carry throughout 12.0.2, and 12.0.7, leading into 12.1.

The Zul'Aman and Troll plot could focus on building up the narrative for the first raid, as well as focusing on making a pact with the Elves and Humans (Could also lead to some cool Horde-focused stories).

And the Quel'thalas plot could focus on the Sunwell, the Void Elves, Nightborne, Blood Elves, and Night Elves banding together, as well as some major character developments regarding Alleria.

[Sondrelk]

The War Within is not the Nerbuian expansion. It is the underground expansion, and it delivers with that in being mostly set underground. Completely different to compare. More apt would be Shadowlands or Dragonflight, which all contained their major stories in the major theme of the expansion, Death and Dragons. For Midnight it is Elves, Light and Shadow.

Your human plotline doesn't make sense. As there is no human faction in Lordaeron. The Forsaken are there. And the forsaken have no beef with the humans anymore, only the scarlet crusade. A light human based story line would be out of touch for lordaeron. Even for the plaguelands as the Argent Crusade isn't a human faction.

If that were true, then people would also assume the Ghostlands would be fully elven. Or that Zul'aman will be ignored.
They are after all not purely elven in theme.

People accept bringing those themes in because the idea of an expansion with nothing but elves is absurdly limited in scope. And most everyone can instantly tell that you need more variety, if nothing else just to have different themed dungeons.

Once you accept that the question is simply one of whether it's better to scale up Eversong/Ghostlands to be the size of a modern zone. Or whether it makes more sense to just use the existing zones in northern EK, since they have basically all of the same themes.
And with that in mind I think the developers know that 9 time out of 10 then players want the option where they actually get to go to a revamped Stratholme. And actually see places like Jintha'alor in its full glory.

[Enrif]

How is it too big an area? Arathi Highlands and upwards is almost exactly the same size as the Dragon Isles.
If you then combine some of the zones with a similar theme like the Plaguelands into one, or the Forsaken levelling zones into Lordaeron. Then you end up with an expansion launch sized parcel of content with four distinct zones. Of which only the Hinterlands/Arathi Highlands is a bit more on the vague side compared to Lordaeron and Plaguelands in terms of immediate relevance to Quel'thalas.

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...agon_isles_to/

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...agon_isles_vs/

Let's look at these comparisons. Dragon Isles are bigger than Northrend, Kul Tiras should be about the size of Gilneas but it is here about half of the size of the Dragonisles. All of the current Northers EK would be less than the Dragon Isles, while loosing its zones uniqueness. When i hear of a world revamp i expect each classic zone to be the size of a new zone. Eversong Woods should be as big as Drustvar, Ghostlands should be as big as Nazmir, the Eastern plaguelands should be as big as the azure span. And so on.

I don't believe they will keep the scale as small, and just make another cata overhaul, but a true remake. And we saw that even back in WoD when they remade outland into draenor that they made it bigger. Here is a post from 10 years ago
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...d-and-compared

Draenor 4:20 by 3:45
Outland 3.35 by 3:30

It is very likely and resonable to think they will upscale the classic zone to fit the size of modern zones, and not only by simply merging them.

[Joshuaj]

Also, TWW is underground themed, sure. It's also focused on multiple factors as a result.

For Midnight, it was said we'd return to the Old World, we'd return to Quel'thalas, and that we would not only unite the Elves, but we'd also stand with the forces of the Light against the Shadow.

To me, this makes me think that Quel'thalas and the Elven stuff will be the main part of the A Plot (Much like how the Earthern stuff took up much of TWWs A plot), but I don't think it'll be the only plot. Not by a long shot.

It'll most likely be Humans, Elves, and Trolls for 12.0. And considering they're also remastering WC2? Idk. Seems a bit TOO coincidental, no? Ik the remaster is cause Warcraft is celebrating it's 30th, but the timing would work so well.

[Enrif]

If that were true, then people would also assume the Ghostlands would be fully elven. Or that Zul'aman will be ignored.
They are after all not purely elven in theme.

People accept bringing those themes in because the idea of an expansion with nothing but elves is absurdly limited in scope. And most everyone can instantly tell that you need more variety, if nothing else just to have different themed dungeons.

Once you accept that the question is simply one of whether it's better to scale up Eversong/Ghostlands to be the size of a modern zone. Or whether it makes more sense to just use the existing zones in northern EK, since they have basically all of the same themes.
And with that in mind I think the developers know that 9 time out of 10 then players want the option where they actually get to go to a revamped Stratholme. And actually see places like Jintha'alor in its full glory.

How many themes do you want to pack in these zones? Dev time for a expansion is strapped, and doing too much is ineffiecent.

We have Elves, we have Light and Void, we have Trolls, we have very likeley Naga. Why maybe have some undead, why also cram in humans?

[Joshuaj]

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...agon_isles_to/

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...agon_isles_vs/

Let's look at these comparisons. Dragon Isles are bigger than Northrend, Kul Tiras should be about the size of Gilneas but it is here about half of the size of the Dragonisles. All of the current Northers EK would be less than the Dragon Isles, while loosing its zones uniqueness. When i hear of a world revamp i expect each classic zone to be the size of a new zone. Eversong Woods should be as big as Drustvar, Ghostlands should be as big as Nazmir, the Eastern plaguelands should be as big as the azure span. And so on.

I don't believe they will keep the scale as small, and just make another cata overhaul, but a true remake. And we saw that even back in WoD when they remade outland into draenor that they made it bigger. Here is a post from 10 years ago
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...d-and-compared

Draenor 4:20 by 3:45
Outland 3.35 by 3:30

It is very likely and resonable to think they will upscale the classic zone to fit the size of modern zones, and not only by simply merging them.

Wouldn't this just mean they could make it to where Northern EK could finally be as big as the Dragon Isles or something like that? Cause, like you said, current Northern EK and current Northrend are smaller than the Dragon Isles. Why wouldn't they update Northern EK as a result?

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How many themes do you want to pack in these zones? Dev time for a expansion is strapped, and doing too much is ineffiecent.

We have Elves, we have Light and Void, we have Trolls, we have very likeley Naga. Why maybe have some undead, why also cram in humans?

The Human stuff would be connected to the Light stuff. Simple as that. And regarding Undead? Maybe they could have stuff handling the Scarlet Crusade, and it's up to the Worgen, the Forsaken, and maybe some other Light- themed guys to stop them.

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Here would be the themes for each patch:

12.0: Humans, Elves, and Trolls (Humans battle eachother with some focus on the Forsaken and the Worgen, Elves battle Naga and Void, and Trolls battle Void which leads to the first raid).

12.1: United Elves/Humans/Trolls Vs Azshara and the Void.

And 12.2: Forces of the Light Vs Forces of the Shadow on the ruins of K'aresh

[Sondrelk]

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...agon_isles_to/

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...agon_isles_vs/

Let's look at these comparisons. Dragon Isles are bigger than Northrend, Kul Tiras should be about the size of Gilneas but it is here about half of the size of the Dragonisles. All of the current Northers EK would be less than the Dragon Isles, while loosing its zones uniqueness. When i hear of a world revamp i expect each classic zone to be the size of a new zone. Eversong Woods should be as big as Drustvar, Ghostlands should be as big as Nazmir, the Eastern plaguelands should be as big as the azure span. And so on.

I don't believe they will keep the scale as small, and just make another cata overhaul, but a true remake. And we saw that even back in WoD when they remade outland into draenor that they made it bigger. Here is a post from 10 years ago
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...d-and-compared

Draenor 4:20 by 3:45
Outland 3.35 by 3:30

It is very likely and resonable to think they will upscale the classic zone to fit the size of modern zones, and not only by simply merging them.

Sure, in an ideal world this would be the case. But given it would take something like 4-5 expansions just to make each old world zone into a new one assuming each converted zone is equivalent to one of the 6/7 major zones we get each expansion, I just think that is not something we should expect.

For that matter, old zones are not terribly diverse. Most are just one, and maybe two distinct areas. Compare this to modern zones which are considered simplistic if they have three distinct areas.

It would be nice if all the zones got much bigger. But that is just not realistic.

[Joshuaj]

It'd be no different to TWW:

11.0: Earthern, Arathi, and Nerubians (Earthern Vs eachother with some focus on the Factions, Kobalds, and Goblins. Arathi Vs eachother plus the Void, and the Nerubians Vs eachother and the Void with some build up with the Harronir)

11.1: Potentially Harronir Vs Goblins

11.2: Potentially Void, Titan, and Worldsoul themed.

[Enrif]

Wouldn't this just mean they could make it to where Northern EK could finally be as big as the Dragon Isles or something like that? Cause, like you said, current Northern EK and current Northrend are smaller than the Dragon Isles. Why wouldn't they update Northern EK as a result?

i'm not against that. I say, if they do that. the Northern EK would be thrice the size of the Dragonisles.

The Northerns EK (including Quel'thalas) have 11 zones currently. If each zone would be in scope like a modern zone it would need 3 expansions worth of map space to make it. That is my counterpoint. Scope Creep. I would have rather a well executed Quel'thalas without any other northern EK parts, rather than a dozen half empty zones.

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Sure, in an ideal world this would be the case. But given it would take something like 4-5 expansions just to make each old world zone into a new one assuming each converted zone is equivalent to one of the 6/7 major zones we get each expansion, I just think that is not something we should expect.

For that matter, old zones are not terribly diverse. Most are just one, and maybe two distinct areas. Compare this to modern zones which are considered simplistic if they have three distinct areas.

It would be nice if all the zones got much bigger. But that is just not realistic.

Yet, that should be the expectations. Each zone, given the care and size it deserves. Not again a dozen small zones no one visits anymore. Like the Hinterlands, Badlands, Desolace and many others. The EK (and kalimdor) need to make each single zone they had fully realized.

Also, going down a 6 expansion route to revamp EK&Kalimdor to their full glory gives enough for the next 10 years of content, which is better than another half dozen random islands suddenly being discovered.

[Ersula]

Answer me this. Did the Quel'thalas change when Cata happend?

Do you also think they're going to design a new Quel'thalas without making it seemlessly flyable? Its not going to be instanced anymore. That much is obvious. They're essentially forced to update Lordaeron when they update Quelthalas.

People also pitching the rest of TWW thinking the Sword isn't going to be involved, location-wise & Silithus isn't going to be revamped....despite them choosing the sword as centerpiece of the cinematic, really?

I'm still pitching they will update Northrend, Southern Kalimdor & Northern Eastern Kingdoms during The Worldsoul Saga & update Northern Kalimdor & Southern Eastern Kingdoms during the following Saga.

[Joshuaj]

i'm not against that. I say, if they do that. the Northern EK would be thrice the size of the Dragonisles.

The Northerns EK (including Quel'thalas) have 11 zones currently. If each zone would be in scope like a modern zone it would need 3 expansions worth of map space to make it. That is my counterpoint. Scope Creep. I would have rather a well executed Quel'thalas without any other northern EK parts, rather than a dozen half empty zones.

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Yet, that should be the expectations. Each zone, given the care and size it deserves. Not again a dozen small zones no one visits anymore. Like the Hinterlands, Badlands, Desolace and many others. The EK (and kalimdor) need to make each single zone they had fully realized.

Also, going down a 6 expansion route to revamp EK&Kalimdor to their full glory gives enough for the next 10 years of content, which is better than another half dozen random islands suddenly being discovered.

I think they'll probably be around the same size of the Dragon Isles. They don't have to JUST expand the zones, they can also combine the zones and add stuff onto them. Zidormi is always there to bring people back to the old Eastern Kingdoms anyways lol.

[Sondrelk]

How many themes do you want to pack in these zones? Dev time for a expansion is strapped, and doing too much is ineffiecent.

We have Elves, we have Light and Void, we have Trolls, we have very likeley Naga. Why maybe have some undead, why also cram in humans?

Quel'thalas has elf stuff, with troll stuff on the side.
Plaguelands has Scourge stuff, with human or elf stuff on the side.
Lordaeron has Forsaken stuff, with Arathi on the side.
Hinterlands/Arathi Highlands has Troll stuff, with Arathi on the side.
Etc.

Not much different from how, say. The current expansion has a major storyline, and also a minor storyline.
If anything, in my example it's even more streamlined than usual, since most expansions have C-list enemies, like kobolds, or Kobyss. Enemies who are really just there for variety. And even beyond that, not all stories in an expansion gets prime narrative real estate with raids or Megadungeons.

In my example above I could see something like Trolls being the first raid. Elves being the second raid. And Void being the final raid. With the Forsaken and human stuff just being there to give context to the Arathi storyline in the future. And the Scourge just being a flavour element to allow the developers to make Stratholme or Scholomance relevant. Which is in all honesty a perfectly reasonable way the expansion could go.

[Joshuaj]

Heck, this is what Blizzard said regarding Midnight's Development and how old zones were compared to the new ones:

"No, that is absolutely the case, you're right. Dragonflight had some of the largest zones we've ever made, because we weren't sure how much space we'd need for Dragonriding at the time. For The War Within, we figured we'd focus on building zones that were 'the right size' rather than simply enormous. As we look ahead to the next expansion, Midnight, which will take place in the Eastern Kingdoms, we're reminded that many of those old classic zones were actually much smaller than the zones we've been building more recently." Maria noted, "we want the spaces to tell stories, and have them feel closer and intimate when it's important to do so, and then deliver vast expanses too. Hollowfall for example, has an endless sea at its edge. There's intent and purpose, hinting at things you might want to think about."

So the idea of Blizzard combining zones, maybe expanding them a bit, and adding new and exciting details to them would totally make sense.

[Xilurm]

Do you also think they're going to design a new Quel'thalas without making it seemlessly flyable? Its not going to be instanced anymore. That much is obvious. They're essentially forced to update Lordaeron when they update Quelthalas.

Why? And if that's the case, then why wouldn't they be forced to update the Khaz Modan section? And then the southern EK part?