Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[huth]

The problem with Bards is two-fold: We have no example of such a class in the history of Warcraft, and the basis of the class is thinner than tissue paper. A class based on the Radiant Song is rather vague because we have no set idea of what the Radiant song does as a class mechanic. In addition, it supposedly tanks, so does this mean that this class is melee? What's the unique mechanics at work here? Is this class going to be casting spells, or using some sort of aura? Again, this is where having an established character using this archetype would be helpful, but none exist.

Which is why (to me) it makes more sense that this is some sort of Paladin talent or hero talent tree. Paladins are using Radiant magic throughout their specs, and they have Auras which can easily be upgraded to songs via a talent flip. In addition, Paladins can tank, DPS, and support (Lightforge), which follows the general arc of this concept.

You mean you want the class to be Tinker, so you must reject all other options. There not being a set idea is an advantage, not a problem. It leaves Blizzard far more leeway on what to do with it.

That you can't come up with a decent idea is a limitation of your Tinker focused imagination, not Blizzard's class design.

[milkmustache]

Looks like it'll be new classes and new specs to existing classes, given that some are niche and others cover more than one role. If its even real.

Class: Tinker, Bard, Witch, Artificer

Additional Spec: Gunner, Astrologian, Celestials Lancer, Battlemage, Leyweaver, Gunner, Prismatic, Gunslinger, Titankiller, Necromancer, Warden, Spellbreaker,

Unsure: Apothecary

The classes look more fun than the additional specs.

Is it possible that some of these classes that sound like Hero Talents could actually be some form of class agonstic hero talents, either available to all of a single spec or all classes in general? Is this possibly laying some ground work for Titan empowerment to the classes? Pick your Titan, gain their power, etc? Not sure how well that'd go if so, it feels like a pre-Dragonflight design philosphy thing.

[Mecheon]

The problem with Bards is two-fold: We have no example of such a class in the history of Warcraft, and the basis of the class is thinner than tissue paper. A class based on the Radiant Song is rather vague because we have no set idea of what the Radiant song does as a class mechanic. In addition, it supposedly tanks, so does this mean that this class is melee? What's the unique mechanics at work here? Is this class going to be casting spells, or using some sort of aura? Again, this is where having an established character using this archetype would be helpful, but none exist.

Which is why (to me) it makes more sense that this is some sort of Paladin talent or hero talent tree. Paladins are using Radiant magic throughout their specs, and they have Auras which can easily be upgraded to songs via a talent flip. In addition, Paladins can tank, DPS, and support (Lightforge), which follows the general arc of this concept.

We do have examples of bards? The one Wildhammer one is the obvious one, but then there's Blightboar and that whole thing. Regardless though, much like Monk, which didn't have any ingame representation prior to Mists, its taking a widely popular RPG class and doing a Warcraft spin on it. Plus, well, your favourite, the Tinker, started as an April Fools joke, and everyone knows the April Fools for Bard was a popular one.

Nothing about "Supporter, Healer and Tanks, that utilize the Song of Azeroth to cast mighty spells, support their allies and weaken their enemies. Bards shine in a group, empowering and improving the spells of others and at the same time bringing numerous songs and auras to help their group reach new heights." reads as "A Warcraft version of the popular RPG class Bard" and not anything to do with paladins. It is an absolute stretch to suggest anything about that implies its a paladin talent tree, and I would not consider Lightforged's racial being a support

And of course its melee. Bards are spellcasters with a bit melee in D&D? Swords and Valor bards are things for a reason. The only game they're not melee in is FFXIV

[Nymrohd]

I love bards
I played one on several D&D campaigns, many crpgs and even in mmorpgs.
I don't have any interest in playing one in WoW as of now. There is no bardic archetype present in WoW's lore. There are mentions of music as magic, increasing lately even, but there is no integration in culture or iconic hero.
Tinker and necromancer have been present in the game since the RTS and part of the game's history. Heck if they existed they would immediately have multiple iconic characters and several races would have strong ties to them.I could even see some version of witch as e.g. a decay based dark shaman because there are so many examples of it.

Now they could build bard in the lore if they want to. There are some tertiary npcs who are bards after all.

[Raetary]

A Witch class based on the Drust and harvest witches, focusing on elemental Decay/Spirit would be pretty damn interesting.

[Nymrohd]

A Witch class based on the Drust and harvest witches, focusing on elemental Decay/Spirit would be pretty damn interesting.

And you could tie other existing concepts into it like hex lords and witch doctors. It would be decay elementalism vs the spirit elementalism of shaman.

[Eldryth]

And of course its melee. Bards are spellcasters with a bit melee in D&D? Swords and Valor bards are things for a reason. The only game they're not melee in is FFXIV

They can be more varied than that, being a jack-of-all-trades that supports allies and revolves around music are the typical core traits, and the D&D examples you listed can be built to use ranged weapons too (I made a crossbow-wielding Bard for my first BG3 run), but melee is definitely a common take. A bard fighting with a rapier is pretty iconic (for that matter, maybe they could use a single one-hand weapon and an instrument for the offhand?)

And I agree with the rest of your overall premise. We don't really have a solid Bard adventurer premise in WoW yet, but that survey option very clearly comes across as an attempt to create one and give us a very popular archetype, which works very well with the Saga's new lore. And they have a lot of freedom in how they can do it. I fully expect (based on the description) that, should they choose to follow that option, they'll create some good mechanics based around music and use the Azerite color scheme that the Radiant Echoes have. We may not know the specific mechanics yet, but they always need to create new ones anyway for any new class.

Honestly, out of the survey, both Bard and the tech classes are extremely solid options, and given that they all fit TLT perfectly and have some of the most detailed descriptions, I expect we'll get one of those three. Hard to say which though- Tinkers are a very popular request within WoW's fanbase, while Bard is a very popular classic fantasy archetype.

[milkmustache]

A Witch class based on the Drust and harvest witches, focusing on elemental Decay/Spirit would be pretty damn interesting.

100%, I think that Witch is up there with Tinker and Spellbreaker in terms of possibility in the world.

[Eldryth]

100%, I think that Witch is up there with Tinker and Spellbreaker in terms of possibility in the world.

Yeah, it's one of the more fleshed-out ideas on the survey with some solid ties to existing powers that we can't use. Sure, it's something that could have been tied with Shaman much earlier on in WoW's history. Voodoo, hexes, and spirit magic used to be, and ostensibly is, their thing. But they've long since lost that aspect to focus entirely on the classic elements, with Hex as the only real remnant of that side of them.

I don't see them picking it over Bard or a tech class right now since it doesn't really fit TLT's themes like the other detailed ideas there, but it comes across as something that they're seriously considering for the future. If the survey is meant to also gather interest in potential post-Saga class ideas, then Witch seems like a top contender for that now.

[Teriz]

You mean you want the class to be Tinker, so you must reject all other options. There not being a set idea is an advantage, not a problem. It leaves Blizzard far more leeway on what to do with it.

That you can't come up with a decent idea is a limitation of your Tinker focused imagination, not Blizzard's class design.

I'm not rejecting it. I'm simply offering up some skepticism. Consider that you're basing an entire class around "Radiant Song", a concept that has no existing class mechanic, and the only thing resembling it is "radiant magic" which is holy/fire and used extensively by Paladins and Priests. We also have no known examples of this class, which would be a big departure from previous class inclusions.

It's certainly possible, but I have serious doubts about it.

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We do have examples of bards? The one Wildhammer one is the obvious one, but then there's Blightboar and that whole thing. Regardless though, much like Monk, which didn't have any ingame representation prior to Mists, it's taking a widely popular RPG class and doing a Warcraft spin on it. Plus, well, your favourite, the Tinker, started as an April Fools joke, and everyone knows the April Fools for Bard was a popular one.

TBF though, we had the Pandaren Brewmaster hero which gave us an idea of how such a class would be structured. In terms of Tinkers, we have WC3, HotS, and a lot of NPCs to consider how such a class would be structured.

The Bard examples you're naming here aren't using the Radiant Song to empower themselves. That's the thing; This class completely revolves around a power source that has never shown any applicable class mechanics.

Compare that to say the Five Dragonflights which formed the basis of the Evoker class; We knew the class applicability of those concepts for YEARS, and we had multiple heroes from HotS for us to experience how those class mechanics could work.

Nothing about "Supporter, Healer and Tanks, that utilize the Song of Azeroth to cast mighty spells, support their allies and weaken their enemies. Bards shine in a group, empowering and improving the spells of others and at the same time bringing numerous songs and auras to help their group reach new heights." reads as "A Warcraft version of the popular RPG class Bard" and not anything to do with paladins. It is an absolute stretch to suggest anything about that implies its a paladin talent tree, and I would not consider Lightforged's racial being a support

And of course its melee. Bards are spellcasters with a bit melee in D&D? Swords and Valor bards are things for a reason. The only game they're not melee in is FFXIV

Yeah, but that's D&D. What Warcraft Bard are you basing any of this on exactly? I don't believe the Wildhammer Bard was melee, and the ETC and the Blight Boar bards are using heavy metal music, not the Radiant Song.

Which is why I think this is likely a Paladin talent set based around their auras. It simply makes a lot more sense.

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I love bards
I played one on several D&D campaigns, many crpgs and even in mmorpgs.
I don't have any interest in playing one in WoW as of now. There is no bardic archetype present in WoW's lore. There are mentions of music as magic, increasing lately even, but there is no integration in culture or iconic hero.
Tinker and necromancer have been present in the game since the RTS and part of the game's history. Heck if they existed they would immediately have multiple iconic characters and several races would have strong ties to them.I could even see some version of witch as e.g. a decay based dark shaman because there are so many examples of it.

Now they could build bard in the lore if they want to. There are some tertiary npcs who are bards after all.

This is pretty much where I'm at. I agree 100%.

[Mecheon]

TBF though, we had the Pandaren Brewmaster hero which gave us an idea of how such a class would be structured. In terms of Tinkers, we have WC3, HotS, and a lot of NPCs to consider how such a class would be structured.

The Bard examples you're naming here aren't using the Radiant Song to empower themselves. That's the thing; This class completely revolves around a power source that has never shown any applicable class mechanics.

Compare that to say the Five Dragonflights which formed the basis of the Evoker class; We knew the class applicability of those concepts for YEARS, and we had multiple heroes from HotS for us to experience how those class mechanics could work.

The Brewmaster didn't have anything to do with the August Celestials or how the monk would work, and yet that's baked hard into the class. All Windwalker takes from the Brewmaster is an optional talent in Storm, Earth and Fire, and Mistweaver is completely original with nothing from the Brewmaster at all.

If they can invent two whole specs and completely give a new power source for the third, they absolutely can just mesh together the concept of the Radiant Song with the wider 'bard' class idea in RPGs

Yeah, but that's D&D. What Warcraft Bard are you basing any of this on exactly? I don't believe the Wildhammer Bard was melee, and the ETC and the Blight Boar bards are using heavy metal music, not the Radiant Song.

Which is why I think this is likely a Paladin talent set based around their auras. It simply makes a lot more sense.

What Warcraft Monk was the class based on? We had monks before hand, in the Scarlets, they were just Disc priests. Brewmaster spec is the Pandaren Brewmaster, sure, but find me a pre-existing use of the August Celestials as a power source or anything that Windwalker or Mistweaver used. Any at all.

There is nothing to suggest it is anything to do with paladins in what is written. This is downright so far a leap in logic I'd almost accuse you of making a bad argument out of it. Nothing suggest anything to do with the Light like paladins do, nothing to suggest it wears plate armor, nothing to suggest the use of auras, yet you're somehow going down this path of saying 'Yeah that's a paladin"? There is no basis for this.

Its a new class idea with its own spec ideas, the same as Tinker or Articer, both of which are seperate takes on 'tech class'. Some of them look to be more hero talent orientated, but Bard absolutely is not one of those, its certainly more thought out than Necromancer

[Teriz]

The Brewmaster didn't have anything to do with the August Celestials or how the monk would work, and yet that's baked hard into the class. All Windwalker takes from the Brewmaster is an optional talent in Storm, Earth and Fire, and Mistweaver is completely original with nothing from the Brewmaster at all.

If they can invent two whole specs and completely give a new power source for the third, they absolutely can just mesh together the concept of the Radiant Song with the wider 'bard' class idea in RPGs

Except you're forgetting that Blizzard also took concepts from the Pandaren Brewmaster in the TTRPGs as well. Further, from the WC3 unit we got the Brewmaster spec, it's Mastery, and some of its core attributes. Storm Earth and Fire gave the Monk class some basis in elemental magic, and the Brewmaster's lore from both WC3 and the TTRPG gave it a basis in using brews to empower itself.

Again, this is all stuff we got BEFORE there was ever a Pandaria expansion or a Monk class.

What Warcraft Monk was the class based on? We had monks before hand, in the Scarlets, they were just Disc priests. Brewmaster spec is the Pandaren Brewmaster, sure, but find me a pre-existing use of the August Celestials as a power source or anything that Windwalker or Mistweaver used. Any at all.

https://www.wowhead.com/wotlk/item=49665/pandaren-monk

First appeared in WotLK with a letter from Chen himself.

In addition you should check out the Pandaren Brewmaster and other Pandaren classes described in the old TTRPG books like here;

http://pitofdespair.randominsanity.o...ns%20(OEF).pdf

Which came after WC3 but predate MoP. You'll definitely see some familiar concepts and abilities.

There is nothing to suggest it is anything to do with paladins in what is written. This is downright so far a leap in logic I'd almost accuse you of making a bad argument out of it. Nothing suggest anything to do with the Light like paladins do, nothing to suggest it wears plate armor, nothing to suggest the use of auras, yet you're somehow going down this path of saying 'Yeah that's a paladin"? There is no basis for this.

Its a new class idea with its own spec ideas, the same as Tinker or Articer, both of which are seperate takes on 'tech class'. Some of them look to be more hero talent orientated, but Bard absolutely is not one of those, its certainly more thought out than Necromancer

It's in the name and what it can do. Radiant is a spell school in WoW which combines holy and fire. If the class is using the "Radiant Song" then it is potentially also utilizing the Radiant multi-school. You know what class uses a lot of radiant abilities and can tank, dps, and support? The Paladin class. It's even feasible to imagine that Blizzard would take Paladin auras and make them songs utilizing radiant power. So why do you think it's a leap in logic for Blizzard to assign this to Paladins over creating an entire class with talents, abilities and hero talent trees based on a concept we've never seen before?

BTW we have examples of Tinkers. We have examples of Artificers. Where's the example of a Bard using Radiant Songs?

[huth]

I'm not rejecting it. I'm simply offering up some skepticism. Consider that you're basing an entire class around "Radiant Song", a concept that has no existing class mechanic, and the only thing resembling it is "radiant magic" which is holy/fire and used extensively by Paladins and Priests. We also have no known examples of this class, which would be a big departure from previous class inclusions.

It's certainly possible, but I have serious doubts about it.

That's a fundamental failure to understand what class design is, not an argument against bards. Your "serious doubts" are solely founded on your refusal to even consider the possibility with your counterarguments being the most spurious nonsense combined with a refusal to consider that this just means Blizzard isn't limited in coming up with said mechanics.

And "no known examples" is just flat-out a lie.

[Teriz]

That's a fundamental failure to understand what class design is, not an argument against bards. Your "serious doubts" are solely founded on your refusal to even consider the possibility with your counterarguments being the most spurious nonsense combined with a refusal to consider that this just means Blizzard isn't limited in coming up with said mechanics.

And "no known examples" is just flat-out a lie.

Okay, where's the examples of Bards using the Radiant song to DPS, Support, or Tank?

[huth]

It's in the name and what it can do. Radiant is a spell school in WoW which combines holy and fire. If the class is using the "Radiant Song" then it is potentially also utilizing the Radiant multi-school. You know what class uses a lot of radiant abilities and can tank, dps, and support? The Paladin class. It's even feasible to imagine that Blizzard would take Paladin auras and make them songs utilizing radiant power. So why do you think it's a leap in logic for Blizzard to assign this to Paladins over creating an entire class with talents, abilities and hero talent trees based on a concept we've never seen before?

You ever looked a word up in a dictionary and found an entry that went "Word - 1. meaning 1 2. meaning 2 3. meaning 3"? Words can mean more than one thing.

The Radiant Song is very obviously not named that because it's in both the Holy and Fire schools.

Also, no, Paladins do not have a support spec.

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Okay, where's the examples of Bards using the Radiant song to DPS, Support, or Tank?

Not what you originally asked for. There are bards in WarCraft. You don't get to tack on the Radiant Song requirement after the fact.

[Teriz]

Not what you originally asked for. There are bards in WarCraft. You don't get to tack on the Radiant Song requirement after the fact.

Read it again. I said that there's no examples of Bards using the Radiant song in Warcraft.

You said I'm lying about that, so prove me wrong.

[Ammeg]

Is it possible that some of these classes that sound like Hero Talents could actually be some form of class agonstic hero talents, either available to all of a single spec or all classes in general? Is this possibly laying some ground work for Titan empowerment to the classes? Pick your Titan, gain their power, etc? Not sure how well that'd go if so, it feels like a pre-Dragonflight design philosphy thing.

Maybe yeah, I think some sound like they could be hero talents or new specs for classes, but others are more than likely actual new classes (if its not just a load of tosh anyway)

[Therougetitan]

If the survey is real I don't see the point in arguing what is valid on the survey or not because (if it is real) then all the options are valid and they are open to anything. Any lore can be created/adjusted for new classes. Any overlap with existing classes is bound to happen with how many specs/hero specs we have now.

[KyleEverett]

Teriz being Teriz assuming only ONE possibility could ever exist.

Lore can be new. It doesn't have to be based on old stuff.

Azeroth is awakening and her empowering certain heroes with her song to defend Azeroth through the Radiant Song would be a hell of a way to enter The Last Titan with her clearly on our side against the Titans. It could be entirely based on Azerite colors, maybe repurpose some of the old essence animations with some musical flair.

I'm down for it as a concept if it gets us another support spec.

[Teriz]

Maybe yeah, I think some sound like they could be hero talents or new specs for classes, but others are more than likely actual new classes (if its not just a load of tosh anyway)

I'm willing to bet that Spellbreaker is the long awaited third spec for Demon Hunters, and Warden is a new spec or hero talent tree for Hunters, and I bet both occur because of Illidan's rumored return in TLT.

Neither matches the theme of TLT as a whole, but both work with those existing classes.