Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Raetary]

I thought the whole idea Azeroth was a first one came from the First One waystones reacting to the player. Which in turn the devs said was because of the player's connection to Azeroth's world-soul.

Obviously that plot point never got explored but I can see why some people ran with it.

The waystone, the idiotic prophecy, the Janitors interest in her, the fact that her soul reacts the Heart of Eternity and is the key to enabling Janitor to push his fetish onto the whole universe, her name fitting into the Zereth naming convention (or rather, the other way around), her perculiar power lvl.

It is not a far fetched idea at all.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Speaking of which, did Blizzard ever go through with that whole "connection to Azeroth's World Soul" thing? Seems more like the First Ones placed it there, and the Universe's threads deemed us worthy of activating it.

It was probably a dropped plot thread as someone else pointed out. I'm..ok with it being dropped.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

God id kill for this hearth stone expan being the first step in blizzard company wide throwing the first ones in the bin and going back to how it was when the titans were the top dogs.

I honestly don't think the titans were ever the top dogs, but you are right. It is true that their role in canon seemingly was appropriated for the First Ones and simply extended to a larger scale, which is part of what makes them so unpleasant. The less we see of the First Ones, the better.

[guro-tchai]

there was never a non-titanic source which said that the world-soul is a titan. considering their approach to truth, nothing forbade Azeroth from being something else.
HS is not and should not be a way to establish the lore. creeping hearthstonization overall has been a disaster for the game.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I honestly don't think the titans were ever the top dogs, but you are right. It is true that their role in canon seemingly was appropriated for the First Ones and simply extended to a larger scale, which is part of what makes them so unpleasant. The less we see of the First Ones, the better.

Well ya they weren’t the real top dogs with the void lords existing but they were the highest you could get in the physical universe which is why sargaras wanted to stop a void Titan from taking there place.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

And they still are. The First Ones are their own thing entirely.

And hopefully that thing will be non existent.

[Khaza-R]

Last bit I'll post on HS before it starts going too off-topic. But it looks like 9 titan cards will get revealed next week judging by the teaser images.

Looks like the last two reveals are going to be Azeroth and the new HS titan. So should be interesting

[rainhard]

Azeroth will be a hunter then? Seems to have a bow with her.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Why do you want that? What do the First Ones do which hurts the Titans and their influence? What about the First Ones makes the Light any less divine, or the Void any less unique?

There an awful uneeded idea that boils down to "lol what if the titans had titans", always trying to one up the god like beings we had in the past just makes the setting a slog of "oh what stronger god will they pull out of no where next" like they do in DC or Dragon ball.

[Khaza-R]

Azeroth will be a hunter then? Seems to have a bow with her.

Seems to be a horn from a helmet and I what am pretty certain are DK runes. Given their color and the exact same orientation (Blood - Frost - Unholy)

So in the HS universe maybe Argus never became a death titan. Either this new titan or Azeroth are the death titan? The latter would certainly be one way to flip the script on everyone's expectations lol.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Why do you want that? What do the First Ones do which hurts the Titans and their influence? What about the First Ones makes the Light any less divine, or the Void any less unique?

The First Ones are there to give WoW an established top power so things simply aren't confusing. And on top of it, they're also an indirect means of giving us a proper antagonist for the 6 Cosmic Powers.

Well, for one, they inherently render the Light less divine because the Light is no longer self-existent. It seems much less sensible to worship something if it was created by something else instead of being the sole originating point for all things. Prior to the introduction of the First Ones, the Light came first and was a nice concept consistent with the cosmological argument. The First Ones rendered the Light inherently unworthy of worship on account of that it is just part of their grand design.

The First Ones also seem like they don't fill any role that the Light couldn't. The Light, prior to their introduction, was sold as a self-existent thing that satisfies all the requirements to fulfill the cosmological argument. Conversely, the First Ones superfluously complicate things by violating the law of parsimony because there are multiple of them. If anything, it makes it difficult to imagine how they could have preceded everything, and just opens up the need for a new singular self-existent being.

Secondly, there is significantly less mystique to the Void when its origins can be truncated as "alien beings 3d printed it". There's not much room for the kind of profundity you'd hope for from an inherently-gradient concept when it's nothing more than a construct of seemingly relatively-familiar beings. Theoretically, this could be mitigated if it wasn't a product of a Zereth and the Void Lords weren't printed, but it still feels like it dilutes it. The degree to which the Void is alien and unfamiliar is simply diminished by the knowledge that it emerged as part of the plan of an alien civilization.

As for the titans, the First Ones didn't strictly supplant them on a cosmological level so much as a conceptual level. It is true that the titans were never the peak of WoW's hierarchy. However, the titans previously filled the niche of a highly-advanced precursor civilization with a motif structured around order which is mainly interacted with through relics and automata. Their actual narrative role and the concept behind them is very similar, to the point it seems like the objective of their introduction was to try to rekindle the mystique the titans lost in Legion.

To preempt deviation and subsequent reprimand, I will frame my further thoughts strictly through the lens of how I think this will impact things moving forward. In my mind, the First Ones significantly limit our opportunities for milking any interesting concept out of the cosmic balance and realms. Instead of an array of paired concepts naturally flowing from a previous pair, most of our exploration of the cosmos in future expansions will likely be diminished by the presence of the First Ones. Any mystique that any of the realms may have is naturally reduced by the knowledge that they are nothing more than facilities for the First Ones' cosmic industry. While there could potentially be some interest in finding out precisely what the First Ones were trying to construct with the cosmic forces, I don't know how this could be very appealing after their extraordinarily unpopular introduction. I actually think it's rather tragic, because I personally love high-concept fantasy, like Kirkbride's Elder Scrolls lore. With the introduction of the First Ones, the potential of the cosmic forces seems to have been inherently diminished. They have even been diminished as immediate threats because we already know that there is now an external force somewhere which exceeds the other six, further diluting them on a cosmological scale.

[Khaza-R]

Argus' art is on the top right tho? Seems he's very much Death Titan esc there lol. You can argue the colored things are shamanistic instead.

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The Tauren also call Azeroth the earthmother, and Azeroth does seem to be inspired by the primordial Gaia.

Shaman would make the most sense for sure but they already confirmed the shaman titan is Golganneth. Amitus is paladin and Khoz'goroth is warrior.

[huth]

Shaman would make the most sense for sure but they already confirmed the shaman titan is Golganneth. Amitus is paladin and Khoz'goroth is warrior.

Could also be Eonar, who's probably Druid.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

@Aucald

I am highly tempted to contest Cosmicpreds' point, but the moderation staff has seemingly undertaken to more proactively reprimand deviation. Would it or would it not constitute a violation of the topical guidelines if I argued this, and would it or would it not change your answer if I framed it very specifically through the context of future opportunities and how the First One problem could impact things in 11.0 and onward?

[Skytotem]

The elephant in the room, titans will always feel like Alliance lore. Even with Aggramars involvement and Gronds existence, they just don't feel tied to the Horde.

[Khaza-R]

The elephant in the room, titans will always feel like Alliance lore. Even with Aggramars involvement and Gronds existence, they just don't feel tied to the Horde.

I think its less of an issue with the Horde being disconnected from the titans and more them rarely having their own origins to explore. Would've been interesting to see those primordial trolls they talked about before the expansion and where they fit into the history of Azeroth.

Maybe its something that will pop up Emerald Dream patch.

[Skytotem]

Uhm, I really thought you meant something else entirely, not really about the story itself.

Frankly I am huge supporter for freedom of story and also freedon for comedians etc. I mean its just a story..so idk how I feel about this. I heard about the story, but again to me its just a story. It probably has something to do with that is a kids game 12+.

What do you even mean "I'm for freedom" no one's arguing blizz writers go to jail, Im pointing out that they're bad at telling stories about sensitive material with proper weight and care, and should stay away from it until they're ready to do it right.

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I think its less of an issue with the Horde being disconnected from the titans and more them rarely having their own origins to explore. Would've been interesting to see those primordial trolls they talked about before the expansion and where they fit into the history of Azeroth.

Maybe its something that will pop up Emerald Dream patch.

That's exactly the same issue, the horde is too often forced to share Alliance stuff when they should get their own version of things.

[Revamp Man]

They're not like the Titans at all. Can we stop this spread of misinformation already?

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It's gonna happen regardless. We'll get our Azeroth plots, hell 11.0 may also be Azeroth related, but none of that means we'll not get more Realms anytime soon.

First Ones created the Titans for maintaining order in the great pattern
Titans created the keepers to maintain order on Azeroth

First Ones seemingly know the future
Titans seemingly know the future

[Shadowferal]

Next expansion...the First-first ones...for real this time!

[Aucald]

I am highly tempted to contest Cosmicpreds' point, but the moderation staff has seemingly undertaken to more proactively reprimand deviation. Would it or would it not constitute a violation of the topical guidelines if I argued this, and would it or would it not change your answer if I framed it very specifically through the context of future opportunities and how the First One problem could impact things in 11.0 and onward?

I second this.

I don't see any issues discussing the lore behind the First Ones as it pertains to possible and/or future content, no. The thread warnings set forth are about bickering as concerns previous lore from past stories ad nauseam, which is what the Lore forum is essentially for. Keep it topical as concerns future content and it's fine.