Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Ersula]

On top of that, Blizzard seems to be actively distancing themselves from most Shadowlands lore.

People keep saying this but what do you mean? Nothing has actively contradicted Shadowlands lore. It seems like people keep saying this just because Shadowlands lore hasn't been relevant in a while. But that doesn't mean the people making the game actually have umbrage with it.

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If I took anything away from BlizzCon 2023, it is the fact that Metzen has a huuuuuge thing for the epic Light vs Void conflict. Good vs evil. Heroic Paladins vs monsters.

If his original vision was that Elune is of the Light, that's likely where we are heading.

What I consider consistent about Metzen's storytelling, he is more concerned about how cosmic forces are in contradiction to any individual's interests. If Light and Void bring their war to Azeroth, light will only be good on a tangential or temporary level. Metzen will focus on the people caught in the crossfire of the war and even if we help the Light win, the following saga will be about the Light occupying azeroth. The dominant force will always be the enemy.

A light v Void conflict will be cool and has been building for a while but I'm sure Metzen does not think of the Light being inherently good. Mainly because Thrall is his pet character & primary pov character, and his value-system & worldview has nothing to do with the Light.

[Joshuaj]

While that's true blizzard them self's also said at the time.

and while it might just be poor wording on there part they also mention the "holy power" of Elune.



So outside of priest being light based and legion there were definitely implications that Elune was light based from atleast cata onwards as far as blizzard was concerned. .

That just meant there was a greater connection going on regarding Elune and the Naaru, which still exists today mind you.

Also, holy power isn't really relevant here. Order magic can also be holy, and beings like Odyn wield holy magics casually.

[Joshuaj]

If I took anything away from BlizzCon 2023, it is the fact that Metzen has a huuuuuge thing for the epic Light vs Void conflict. Good vs evil. Heroic Paladins vs monsters.

If his original vision was that Elune is of the Light, that's likely where we are heading.

The Light Vs Shadow stuff was being built up for a while now. That doesn't make it "Good Vs Evil" however.

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They basically apologised for Shadowlands, and don't seem to be mentioning its lore at all. They show almost no footage from it in sizzle reels, and they've gone on record to sat that they learned a bunch from the story and setting mishaps of SL.

Then the main guy in charge of the story at the time left the company. To me this signals a lack of confidence from Blizzard in the lore he created.

They mentioned it multiple times in both DF and TWW. No.

[Ersula]

They basically apologised for Shadowlands, and don't seem to be mentioning its lore at all. They show almost no footage from it in sizzle reels, and they've gone on record to sat that they learned a bunch from the story and setting mishaps of SL.

Story /= lore. They said people didn't resonate with the cosmic setting of Shadowlands. The storytelling was lacking in shadowlands. But people keep blaming the lore, as in the worldbuilding. There's nothing wrong with shadowlands worldbuilding & that hasn't been contradicted. Are you saying I should assume when wow players say "lore" they mean the actual prose within the game, and not the worldbuilding that is more commonly associated with the word lore? I think we should all be reminded of that. Because we all agree that the storytelling of shadowlands was bad, but then people try picking apart the worldbuilding of the cosmology, which was never the problem.

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He has always been a Paladin and comic book hero type of guy, though. He loves larger than life characters like those in Marvel comics etc.

Yes, but I wouldn't consider any of the cosmic forces in Marvel to be good either. Your characterization of Metzen is accurate but I would remind he also loves a heelturn.

[Joshuaj]

He has always been a Paladin and comic book hero type of guy, though. He loves larger than life characters like those in Marvel comics etc.

There will be lots of smiting in Midnight.

Yes, but also note that there are currently a ton of Void users in WoW, and they're also fighting on our side. Hell, some of the Void Lords are likely not nearly as aggressive as Dimensius. We'll just have to wait and see, however.

[Wyrt]

If I took anything away from BlizzCon 2023, it is the fact that Metzen has a huuuuuge thing for the epic Light vs Void conflict. Good vs evil. Heroic Paladins vs monsters.

If his original vision was that Elune is of the Light, that's likely where we are heading.

Was Elune originally part of that version? It was largely a draenei story plot with Anduin randomly inserted into it. I don't remember night elves or Elune being a major part of any of the foreshadowing.

[huth]

Putting aside the above specific clarification that they do in fact use a combination of nature and arcane, the schools of spells in gmae are somewhat relevant to lore. Not because it is a 100% surefire qualification that something is from a certain source, but because it represents at the very least, a decision to associate a spell or group of spells with one thing rather than another. They chose to make those spells nature arcane when they could have made them holystorm (nature + holy).

They couldn't because combination schools weren't introduced until long after they gave Druids arcane school spells.

As for why, that's simple: So they would never encounter a situation where they have no working spells. Kind of irrelevant now, but Druids where one of the launch classes.

It has nothing to do with lore. It's purely a gameplay matter.

It should also be noted that Druid arcane spells look very visually distinct from Mage arcane spells.

[Joshuaj]

Was Elune originally part of that version? It was largely a draenei story plot with Anduin randomly inserted into it. I don't remember night elves or Elune being a major part of any of the foreshadowing.

Nothing implies it was part of that vision at all. The old lore simply stated that Elune and the Naaru were connected somehow, and that still exists to this day.

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They couldn't because combination schools weren't introduced until longer after they gave Druids arcane school spells.

As for why, that's simple: So they would never encounter a situation where they have no working spells. Kind of irrelevant now, but Druids where one of the launch classes.

It has nothing to do with lore. It's purely a gameplay matter.

It should also be noted that Druid arcane spells look very visually distinct from Mage arcane spells.

Yep. Thanks Huth.

[Ersula]

They couldn't because combination schools weren't introduced until long after they gave Druids arcane school spells.

As for why, that's simple: So they would never encounter a situation where they have no working spells. Kind of irrelevant now, but Druids where one of the launch classes.

It has nothing to do with lore. It's purely a gameplay matter.

It should also be noted that Druid arcane spells look very visually distinct from Mage arcane spells.

Considering that was closer to when they wrote the Night elves' lore than it is to the present, I think my explanation is better: It's the difference between the in-universe definition of arcane as a flavor of magic, and the dnd definition; a variety of magic in contrast to nature. Wizards are arcane. Druids are not.

[huth]

Considering that was closer to when they wrote the Night elves' lore than it is to the present, I think my explanation is better: It's the difference between the in-universe definition of arcane as a flavor of magic, and the dnd definition; a variety of magic in contrast to nature. Wizards are arcane. Druids are not.

The main difference between WoW and D&D in that regard is that WoW doesn't lump all non-Arcane magic together as Divine. Other than that, they largely work the same.

But Arcane magic and spells in the arcane school game mechanically are not the same thing. Some things in the arcane school aren't even magic at all.

Even in the D&D tie-in, Starfire was Divine magic.

[Ersula]

The main difference between WoW and D&D in that regard is that WoW doesn't lump all non-Arcane magic together as Divine. Other than that, they largely work the same.

But Arcane magic and spells in the arcane school game mechanically are not the same thing. Some things in the arcane school aren't even magic at all.

If you know that why are you trying to come with with a semantic reason for the way the Night Elves talk about arcane magic? It's a homonym. That's how homonyms work.

[Golden Yak]

I expect that at the end of TWW, we'll see Xal'atath cause the true Hour of Twilight, in whatever form that takes. Mostly because I can't shake the feeling that Midnight seems like a deliberate play on that name- the Hour of Twilight is a prophecied event where the Old Gods return and conquer the world, but twilight can also mean the last moments before night (or dawn, but that doesn't really fit here). In that sense, Midnight seems to be what comes after Twilight.

The Void gets a massive victory, the Worldcore is destroyed (this much at least seems sure to happen by TLT to draw the Titans back, whether the Worldsoul within it gets corrupted or not), and in Midnight we're making our last stand against the invasion.

I know a lot of people expect the Sunwell to be corrupted into the Void's invasion portal, but I think it'll be more interesting if we're protecting the Sunwell and losing it is an absolute defeat condition for us. I'm hoping for a situation where the Worldsoul is corrupted at the end of TWW, and the Light of the Sunwell is the only thing that can purify Azeroth so all hope is lost if the Void takes it. And, once we succeed in stopping the Void and cleansing the Worldsoul, the Titans show up to try and get their agenda for it back on track.

I'd have to ask how the Sunwell would fall into play here.

Well, actually I was on team 'it becomes the Voidwell as a primary source of entry for the Void'.

But the idea that the Sunwell might be one of the few regions of Azeroth untouched by the Void and we gather around it as a kind of holding point, keeping a fire lit to rage against the dying of the light, sounds pretty appealing to me.

[huth]

If you know that why are you trying to come with with a semantic reason for the way the Night Elves talk about arcane magic? It's a homonym. That's how homonyms work.

I didn't. I'm not sure why you even think i did. I wasn't talking about Night Elves at any point in this discussion.

[Joshuaj]

...Now that I think about it, Metzen never said the Void would be invading FROM the Sunwell, just that they intended on snuffing out the Light from the Sunwell.

So, you guys might actually have a point there.

Makes me wonder if the Sunwell event is either gonna be our Broken Shore of Midnight (where it's used as the kickstarter event of the expac, but we return to it later on), or just a 12.0 (maybe 12.1) endgame region.

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I also forgot, the Sunwell is one of the most powerful sources of Light on Azeroth right now. Jesus.

Forces of the Light, step up your fuckin game bruh.

[Joshuaj]

I think the theme of unifying the Elves is probably important. As in, we may need to strengthen Silvermoon's defenses by ensuring every able Elf is there in its defense, whether they use Light or Void as their weapon.

But we need some type of inciting event that prompts us to do so. There has to already be a clear threat and reason why we need to do so.

So an intro scenario in which we get out asses handed to us in Quel'Danas perhaps, followed by a few weeks of questing to the south in order to solve the Kingdom's various issues and unify its people.

Then once we reach the final zone campaign, we clear Quel'Danas and ensure the Sunwell remains uncorrected.

I bet there will be Void incursions all over Azeroth throughout the expansion, to give a sense of being under siege.

12.1 sends us off to K'aresh or Azshara's new domain or whatever, before we ultimately have to defend the Sunwell in 12.2.

I don't like the idea of the Sunwell being the final patch, as it would just be a copy of what TBC did. K'aresh just makes more sense in that regard. Have us enter the ruins of K'aresh, and then have the raid be centered around the Light and Void duking it out across either a Void base at the ruins, or at a place where the veils between both the Light and Void realms are at their weakest, hence giving us our FIRST glimpse into seeing pure Light and Shadow energies.

[milkmustache]

I don't like the idea of the Sunwell being the final patch, as it would just be a copy of what TBC did. K'aresh just makes more sense in that regard. Have us enter the ruins of K'aresh, and then have the raid be centered around the Light and Void duking it out across either a Void base at the ruins, or at a place where the veils between both the Light and Void realms are at their weakest, hence giving us our FIRST glimpse into seeing pure Light and Shadow energies.

Why not both? We need to retrieve something from K'aresh to use at the Sunwell. K'aresh also has the potential to just be Argus/Antorus as well.

I do sorta think that Quel'danas and the Sunwell would play out far different from TBC specifically because of your point that the invasion won't happen through the Sunwell (like Kil'Jaeden), but instead with the intention to destroy the Sunwell. Kind of flips it on it's head, where we take the position of the Sunfury.

[Golden Yak]

I just ask myself, "what would look cooler in marketing prior to the release?" and arrive at the same conclusion.

Defenders of the Light taking a last stand around the iconic Sunwell just feels cooler, and has a sense of urgency to it, compared to forces of the Light going on offense against a corrupted Sunwell.

Yep, you're painting a picture. And I like it.

Also we've had a 'fail to preserve the Sunwell' storyline already back in WC3 when the Scourge took it. Flipping things around and having us hold the line and maybe win this time would be novel.

Earlier, I imagined us suffering setbacks, then fighting through Quel'thalas to retake the Sunwell in Season 2, and use whatever Void portal it had become to cross over into the Void itself (likely with some fragments of K'aresh serving as the zone) in order to shut down the portal permanent in Season 3. I imagine a trip to K'aresh could still very much happen, but maybe it won't be the Sunwell that gets us there.

[milkmustache]

Yep, you're painting a picture. And I like it.

Also we've had a 'fail to preserve the Sunwell' storyline already back in WC3 when the Scourge took it. Flipping things around and having us hold the line and maybe win this time would be novel.

Earlier, I imagined us suffering setbacks, then fighting through Quel'thalas to retake the Sunwell in Season 2, and use whatever Void portal it had become to cross over into the Void itself (likely with some fragments of K'aresh serving as the zone) in order to shut down the portal permanent in Season 3. I imagine a trip to K'aresh could still very much happen, but maybe it won't be the Sunwell that gets us there.

I think you just hit a very important notion. It would be very powerful for us to be defending the Sunwell opposed to us retaking the Sunwell because we know very well what the stakes are. If this is truly the big battle between us and the Void for the soul of Azeroth, then there is hardly a better place for it.

I also expect there to be a sort of Legion level alliance and disallusion of said alliance post Midnight. I think we'll see a lot more of the Arathi forces find their way to Quel'thalas to join us in Renilash, but when that evil is prevented from winning, our alliance of circumstance ends there. A big theory of mine is that the conspiracy of The Last Titan was that they were entirely compromised by other Forces and would either be retconned as the Progenitors, or shown to be completely self interested beings that have sold themselves to other forces, mainly the Light. While that could still hypothetically happen, I wonder if a big part of the conspiracy is instead the topic of the Storming Sea and Avaloren. Is it possible that the Arathi are the heretics of Avaloren, completely uninvolved with the Titans but instead devoutly involved with the Light (as the Sacred Flame), and because of this we were hidden from each other? But when the Hallowfall expedition set out to fight in Renilash, it was Azeroth that pulled them to Khaz Algar, knowing we would eventually cross paths, forcing the hand of fate in order to build a fighting force large enough to not just defeat the Void, but in meeting expose the Titan's true motives?

[Golden Yak]

I think you just hit a very important notion. It would be very powerful for us to be defending the Sunwell opposed to us retaking the Sunwell because we know very well what the stakes are. If this is truly the big battle between us and the Void for the soul of Azeroth, then there is hardly a better place for it.

Yep, it would also avoid re-treading the story from Burning Crusade where we retake the Sunwell from an enemy threat that is turning it into a portal

The more I think about, the more I like it.

I also expect there to be a sort of Legion level alliance and disallusion of said alliance post Midnight. I think we'll see a lot more of the Arathi forces find their way to Quel'thalas to join us in Renilash, but when that evil is prevented from winning, our alliance of circumstance ends there. A big theory of mine is that the conspiracy of The Last Titan was that they were entirely compromised by other Forces and would either be retconned as the Progenitors, or shown to be completely self interested beings that have sold themselves to other forces, mainly the Light. While that could still hypothetically happen, I wonder if a big part of the conspiracy is instead the topic of the Storming Sea and Avaloren. Is it possible that the Arathi are the heretics of Avaloren, completely uninvolved with the Titans but instead devoutly involved with the Light (as the Sacred Flame), and because of this we were hidden from each other? But when the Hallowfall expedition set out to fight in Renilash, it was Azeroth that pulled them to Khaz Algar, knowing we would eventually cross paths, forcing the hand of fate in order to build a fighting force large enough to not just defeat the Void, but in meeting expose the Titan's true motives?

I share some of these views - namely, that I think the Arathi Empire will arrive in force during Midnight and will broadly be an ally and a much-needed source of fighting power to oppose the Void (though I expect friction).

Once things have calmed down, post-TLT in my view, I anticipate the Empire will say 'Great, we saved the world! Now, it's time for us to rule it!' This imo will be the optimal time for a revamp of the rest of the Eastern Kingdoms (or at least the northern half) with the Arathi targeting their old human homelands and becoming our enemy in the process.

If Blizzard continues with the saga model, then the Arathi Empire's efforts to conquer Azeroth could form the basis of the next trilogy - first a revamp of Eastern Kingdoms, followed hopefully by an expansion set in the first half of Avaloren, and then the third installment will reveal the second half of Avaloren (I want Avaloren to be a great big continent on the scale of Kalimdor and EK, and I think the only way to manage that is over the course of multiple expansions.)

Plenty of time to explore this great big new land and figure out all the mysteries that have cropped up regarding it.

[Joshuaj]

Why not both? We need to retrieve something from K'aresh to use at the Sunwell. K'aresh also has the potential to just be Argus/Antorus as well.

I do sorta think that Quel'danas and the Sunwell would play out far different from TBC specifically because of your point that the invasion won't happen through the Sunwell (like Kil'Jaeden), but instead with the intention to destroy the Sunwell. Kind of flips it on it's head, where we take the position of the Sunfury.

The stuff regarding the Sunwell's protection post-K'aresh could always be post-raid content lol.