Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[milkmustache]

Well, it's on Blizzard to introduce more cosmic enemy factions like the Void Lords. It was pretty lame that Zovaal's forces didn't really have a name (Mawsworn is closest but still not that cool) and he often just used Death with the big D. The Cult of the Damned and Black Empire are Azeroth exclusive things despite their masters originating from outer planes.

I would love if we got more Demon factions, for example. Or ANYTHING from the Light that isn't a Naaru.

Whatever the Arathi and the Sacred Flame bring about certainly seems to be a major Light faction. The association with flame aside from pure light will be a big distinction to inevitably be looked through with the Sunwell.

But you're right, Blizzard has done a good job at worldbuilding cultures we interact with here in TWW, but ever since BFA there has been a distinct lack of worldbuilding enemies aside from the leaders. Xal'atah, Iridikron and Denathrius are often stated to be good enemies. But the Mawsworn, Primalists, and Shadowguard (if that is Xala'tath's main force) are extremely underdeveloped.

Wrath felt like a true holy war because we had been familiar with the Scourge for the entirity of WoW and WC3, we know the fight we're getting into and so encountering their force in whole felt properly built. Legion felt like a true doomsday scenario because we had been familiar with the sheer numbers of their forces. They could introduce new mobs, new models, new species, but we understood at the core what the Burning Legion was and how they operated. Class Order Halls and mass armies felt necessary because this was the fight for it all.

I hope that there is a significant enemy prescence developed in the next few patches before Midnight, because it would be odd for it just to be a bunch of "Void Corrupted Blood Elf" or "Void Corrupted Amani" mobs that we fight. We're sort of on this cycle right now where we fight an enemy, relieve them of X threat, make allies of the surviving rebels, then move on. It's fine in a lot of ways, but the Void should have a lot more than just corrupting the denizens of X zone until we move on to the next.

[Cheezits]

But you're right, Blizzard has done a good job at worldbuilding cultures we interact with here in TWW, but ever since BFA there has been a distinct lack of worldbuilding enemies aside from the leaders. Xal'atah, Iridikron and Denathrius are often stated to be good enemies. But the Mawsworn, Primalists, and Shadowguard (if that is Xala'tath's main force) are extremely underdeveloped.

I do think part of this is that for whatever reason (be it the casual audience doesn't care about lore, most people prefer this style, and/or the devs are are lazy which I think is the least likely option) WoW storytelling is character based. Especially since Legion.

[milkmustache]

How exactly is it different?

It's just far more developed; we're seeing more Titan interference (and inevitable conspiracy, which I assume is partly their imprisonment of Azeroth) as the story develops. I don't think that the imprisonment was part of the story with the Forge of Souls' involvement in the Jailer's raid fight. Direct access to the Worldsoul is pretty massive, and it seems to be a struggle to commune with at the moment, so I think they'll reapparoach that.

I do think part of this is that for whatever reason (be it the casual audience doesn't care about lore, most people prefer this style, and/or the devs are are lazy which I think is the least likely option) WoW storytelling is character based. Especially since Legion.

It could be that singular characters are easier to market. They also allow for the current campaign questing style to flow a bit better. But we're really, really missing out on well developed baddies. To play a bit of devil's advocate though, they seem to be going down that path really well with the Arathi Empire.

[Raetary]

This also brings up a minor point that I think may be a huge part of my dislike of the cosmology in the game at the moment; entities having names like the Scourge, the Burning Legion, etc., feels a lot better than just referring to it as Death, Disorder, Void, etc. I understand that these factions are but facets of a larger influence, but their names being so... plain, is really a bummer.

I actually think this is a major issue with Blizzards recent writing.
Naming conventions are important, they make the setting recognizable and keep the world consistent.

Referring to the Scourge, Necromancy or Fel and the Burning Legion, invokes a specific and personal mental image.
Whereas "Forces of Death", "Death/Order magic", "Disorder w/e", etc. do not, they are abstractions that barely mean anything to anyone.

A person that spent a couple of minutes within any gaming related space between 2004 and 2016 will know what to roughly imagine when they hear the words "Burning Legion", "Demon" or "Fel" within the context of the warcraft franchise, even if they never played wow/warcraft.
If you asked the same person what "Disorder" is, they won't have a clue.

Blizzard just hurts their setting (and marketing) by not sticking to consistent names and uprooting existing conventions.

[Joshuaj]

Well, it's on Blizzard to introduce more cosmic enemy factions like the Void Lords. It was pretty lame that Zovaal's forces didn't really have a name (Mawsworn is closest but still not that cool) and he often just used Death with the big D. The Cult of the Damned and Black Empire are Azeroth exclusive things despite their masters originating from outer planes.

I would love if we got more Demon factions, for example. Or ANYTHING from the Light that isn't a Naaru.

The faction is called the Mawsworn.

The Void Lords are the lords of the Void. It's the name of their race as the Pantheon of Shadow. Their name is not a faction like the Mawsworn, or the Night Fae, or the Burning Legion.

Would be like saying the Titans are an enemy faction, or the Naaru are an enemy faction. That's not how it works.

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I wonder what the approach to the Scourge would be in context of Shadowlands. Among the common dislike for Shadowlands' story, it seemed a big complaint was the minimizing of Arthas' influence on the Scourge, and even then Sargeras'. Do the Scourge become a lesser entity that is often utilized by greater powers to set the stage for invasions; this meaning, will Darkhan and Kelthuzad become the faces of the Scourge in 12.0 as a ploy by the Void to thin out our resources in the war, just as they were for the Burning Legion?

This also brings up a minor point that I think may be a huge part of my dislike of the cosmology in the game at the moment; entities having names like the Scourge, the Burning Legion, etc., feels a lot better than just referring to it as Death, Disorder, Void, etc. I understand that these factions are but facets of a larger influence, but their names being so... plain, is really a bummer.

Yeah, I kinda dislike how the stuff regarding the Old Gods and whatnot is being referred to as "The Void", etc. Like, yes, some of the heavy hitters of the Void are our enemies, sure. But I don't think every single Void Lord is trying to claim Azeroth or anything like that. Dimensius definitely is, and MAYBE Invalidus (Assuming he's a Void Lord as well, and not just a Voidlord mob), but that doesn't constitute the Void entire.

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It's just far more developed; we're seeing more Titan interference (and inevitable conspiracy, which I assume is partly their imprisonment of Azeroth) as the story develops. I don't think that the imprisonment was part of the story with the Forge of Souls' involvement in the Jailer's raid fight. Direct access to the Worldsoul is pretty massive, and it seems to be a struggle to commune with at the moment, so I think they'll reapparoach that.



It could be that singular characters are easier to market. They also allow for the current campaign questing style to flow a bit better. But we're really, really missing out on well developed baddies. To play a bit of devil's advocate though, they seem to be going down that path really well with the Arathi Empire.

You can just say ICC's existence (especially with the Forge of Souls) caused a puncture in the Worldcore. Seems like a pretty simple thing to explore.

[Ersula]

This also brings up a minor point that I think may be a huge part of my dislike of the cosmology in the game at the moment; entities having names like the Scourge, the Burning Legion, etc., feels a lot better than just referring to it as Death, Disorder, Void, etc. I understand that these factions are but facets of a larger influence, but their names being so... plain, is really a bummer.

They're hardly synonymous. The Scourge's goals have nothing to do with the Pantheon of Death. The Pantheon of Death's goal is to protect the shadowlands. While we have no idea who rules the sphere of Light, the Naaru haven't had clear leadership. We can assume Xe'ra's quest was outside the Light's directives by the First Ones & there were even Naaru acting in opposition of Xe'ra, trying to kill Illidan in TBC.

[milkmustache]

The faction is called the Mawsworn.

The Void Lords are the lords of the Void. It's the name of their race as the Pantheon of Shadow. Their name is not a faction like the Mawsworn, or the Night Fae, or the Burning Legion.

Would be like saying the Titans are an enemy faction, or the Naaru are an enemy faction. That's not how it works.

Yeah, I kinda dislike how the stuff regarding the Old Gods and whatnot is being referred to as "The Void", etc. Like, yes, some of the heavy hitters of the Void are our enemies, sure. But I don't think every single Void Lord is trying to claim Azeroth or anything like that. Dimensius definitely is, and MAYBE Invalidus (Assuming he's a Void Lord as well, and not just a Voidlord mob), but that doesn't constitute the Void entire.

You can just say ICC's existence (especially with the Forge of Souls) caused a puncture in the Worldcore. Seems like a pretty simple thing to explore.

Perhaps faction is an improper word, but just some form of group that is named. I suppose the Void Lords fall under that as well, but the Titans and the Naaru certainly do, although far less than the Scourge or Burning Legion. But it's all rather informal, especially as we fall into discussion of "Pantheons" and such-- it all becomes rather esoteric and abstract, and I personally feel thats a huge negative for story telling. It's incredibly impersonal and I think takes away a lot of good worldbuilding that Blizzard is capable of.

But you're right about ICC puncturing the Worldsoul as a reason, as it seems to fall in the same area as Sargeras's sword. I hope they explore it, especially with "Death" sort of being a non-threat at the moment.

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They're hardly synonymous. The Scourge's goals have nothing to do with the Pantheon of Death. The Pantheon of Death's goal is to protect the shadowlands. While we have no idea who rules the sphere of Light, the Naaru haven't had clear leadership. We can assume Xe'ra's quest was outside the Light's directives by the First Ones & there were even Naaru acting in opposition of Xe'ra, trying to kill Illidan in TBC.

Sure, but I don't think I really mean to insist they're synonymous, but rather that they've taken the place of these other groups.

Which is fine, as we enter this larger cosmological scale battleground, it makes sense that we move to larger entities, but they are hardly descriptive at all. It's similar to just labelling political structures as "left" and "right". There's a whole lot of subgroups between that two that are really the players of the story, not just these demagogues of "left" and "right". I think the same should apply for this.

[Cheezits]

I do think there may be some room to grow the Order domain: we see that some Constellars work for the Titans, and they have "Constellar" forms (see: Legion constellation forms), but it would be cool if Titans are a form of Constellar and they have their own civilization somewhere. As Algalon wasn't sleeping in Ulduar if I remember right, he had to be summoned from some place. And Rygelon is doing his own thing entirely.

And then there's the mystery of Harbaron, Helya's driver, who Xal commented on and who looks to be Constellar or Titan-like.

Demons need additional Lore, Death arguably has too much (lol SL), Voidlords will be elaborated on soon. Life societies were directly hinted at in the Dream patch (being the realm the Dream was "supposedly" pinched off from) and I'm thinking that's what Qonzu is supposed to represent (being as it doesn't seem to be a real Azeroth loa)

[Joshuaj]

"Demons need additional lore"

*laughs in Disorder Lord agenda*

[Telogrus]

I never understood why so many people think the Naaru are on the same level of power as the Old Gods. The Void equivalent of a Naaru is a Void God, not an Old God. M’uru got killed as a penultimate boss, the one in Oshu’gun got killed by Cho’gall, there was some random Void God who was a open world rare in WoD, and Xe’ra, one of the strongest Naaru, got one shot by Illidan. Old Gods are clearly much stronger than Naaru.

Imo, Naaru are more comparable to C’Thraxxi, and giant light crystals like Beledar are the Light’s versions of Old Gods

[Cheezits]

Imo, Naaru are more comparable to C’Thraxxi, and giant light crystals like Beledar are the Light’s versions of Old Gods

I would prefer some Light beings that actually talk and have personalities but I unironically can see that being "irrelevant" for the future Light is going for.

[Raetary]

I never understood why so many people think the Naaru are on the same level of power as the Old Gods. The Void equivalent of a Naaru is a Void God, not an Old God. M’uru got killed as a penultimate boss, the one in Oshu’gun got killed by Cho’gall, there was some random Void God who was a open world rare in WoD, and Xe’ra, one of the strongest Naaru, got one shot by Illidan. Old Gods are clearly much stronger than Naaru.

Imo, Naaru are more comparable to C’Thraxxi, and giant light crystals like Beledar are the Light’s versions of Old Gods

Power level has little to do with it.
People equate them because the chronicle did so.

And their power is all over the place.

Some Naaru die by sneezing in their direction, and others like T'uure are powerful enough to cleanse and entire planet from a Void Lord.

[Joshuaj]

Power level has little to do with it.
People equate them because the chronicle did so.

And their power is all over the place.

Some Naaru die by sneezing in their direction, and others like T'uure are powerful enough to cleanse and entire planet from a Void Lord.

When you say "Void Lord", are we talking about an actual Void Lord in its prime, or the very weak manifestation of one?

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I never understood why so many people think the Naaru are on the same level of power as the Old Gods. The Void equivalent of a Naaru is a Void God, not an Old God. M’uru got killed as a penultimate boss, the one in Oshu’gun got killed by Cho’gall, there was some random Void God who was a open world rare in WoD, and Xe’ra, one of the strongest Naaru, got one shot by Illidan. Old Gods are clearly much stronger than Naaru.

Imo, Naaru are more comparable to C’Thraxxi, and giant light crystals like Beledar are the Light’s versions of Old Gods

The Naaru are powerful asf, wouldn't be shocked if they were the Light equivalent to the Old Gods, Covenant ruling bodies, and Titan Keepers.

The problem with them however is that they're essentially glass cannons. They're all strong n shit til someone touches them.

[Telogrus]

Power level has little to do with it.
People equate them because the chronicle did so.

And their power is all over the place.

Some Naaru die by sneezing in their direction, and others like T'uure are powerful enough to cleanse and entire planet from a Void Lord.

Chronicle never equated them. They were given a similar position on the cosmology chart, but so were the Titans, Wild Gods, Burning Legion, and Undead. So that argument doesn’t hold water unless you also believe that a random Undead is comparable to a Titan. The Naaru were used as the representative of the Light because they’re the only pure Light beings we know of, and Old Gods were used for the Void because they’re the most iconic Void beings that we know of that are present in the Great Dark Beyond

[Raetary]

When you say "Void Lord", are we talking about an actual Void Lord in its prime, or the very weak manifestation of one?

When i say "Void Lord" i literally mean Dimensius.
Who in his partially manifested state is perfectly capable of invading and destroying worlds.

[Telogrus]

When you say "Void Lord", are we talking about an actual Void Lord in its prime, or the very weak manifestation of one?

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The Naaru are powerful asf, wouldn't be shocked if they were the Light equivalent to the Old Gods, Covenant ruling bodies, and Titan Keepers.

The problem with them however is that they're essentially glass cannons. They're all strong n shit til someone touches them.

Clearly they’re not that strong since Xe’ra, a Naaru Prime, couldn’t even corrupt Illidan with the Light. Put Y’Shaarj in her shoes and Legion would have a vastly different ending

[Joshuaj]

Clearly they’re not that strong since Xe’ra, a Naaru Prime, couldn’t even corrupt Illidan with the Light. Put Y’Shaarj in her shoes and Legion would have a vastly different ending

Reminder that Illidan's not at all weak, and Old Gods being masters at mental manipulation is kinda their thing.

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When i say "Void Lord" i literally mean Dimensius.
Who in his partially manifested state is perfectly capable of invading and destroying worlds.

So you mean the latter, got it. Fair enough.

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Chronicle never equated them. They were given a similar position on the cosmology chart, but so were the Titans, Wild Gods, Burning Legion, and Undead. So that argument doesn’t hold water unless you also believe that a random Undead is comparable to a Titan. The Naaru were used as the representative of the Light because they’re the only pure Light beings we know of, and Old Gods were used for the Void because they’re the most iconic Void beings that we know of that are present in the Great Dark Beyond

The Naaru aren't the only ones, but they are the strongest Light beings we know of so far.

*looks at the Guardian of Ancient Kings*

I wanna learn more of them, man

[Ersula]

I'm still pretty sure Xe'ra isn't dead. All those other Naaru were corrupted. Xe'ra just got busted into pieces, but they are naturally an incongruous pile of rock pieces. Sure she seems injured and incapacitated but I don't see why that would actually kill her.

[milkmustache]

"Demons need additional lore"

*laughs in Disorder Lord agenda*

Yea, but this is explicitly my point that there are extremely muddied waters due to these powers being more abstract in nature.

We don't know their agenda because there is not even a mention of a "Disorder Lord", we're just using the transitive property from Void Lords here. We only really know of the Legion, which is fine because there is an incredible amount of lore for them, but the grander scheme of the "Pantheon of Disorder" is entirely unknown to us.

Which is fine, because the Burning Legion provides infinitely more value here. There is mountains of substance to worldbuild and create new stories off of the existence of the Burning Legion. But just saying "Disorder Lord agenda" is incredibly vague because it is inherently abstract.

[Telogrus]

Reminder that Illidan's not at all weak, and Old Gods being masters at mental manipulation is kinda their thing.

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So you mean the latter, got it. Fair enough.

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The Naaru aren't the only ones, but they are the strongest Light beings we know of so far.

*looks at the Guardian of Ancient Kings*

I wanna learn more of them, man

Illidan is a gnat compared to Y’Shaarj. His little eye beam attack would barely even tickle the Old Gods, and Illidan wouldn’t last very long if Y’Shaarj pumped all of his Void power into Illidan