Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Raetary]

Chronicle never equated them. They were given a similar position

.... Yes, because the chronicle equated them.

That position indicates them being the cosmological representative of the Light within the physical universe, like the Old Gods are for the Void or the Wild Gods are for life.
It's not an indication of strength.

A random Undead is not comparable to a Titan in terms of their power and abilites, but they both fill the same role by embodying a cosmic power and existing within reality.

[Ersula]

Yea, but this is explicitly my point that there are extremely muddied waters due to these powers being more abstract in nature.

We don't know their agenda because there is not even a mention of a "Disorder Lord", we're just using the transitive property from Void Lords here. We only really know of the Legion, which is fine because there is an incredible amount of lore for them, but the grander scheme of the "Pantheon of Disorder" is entirely unknown to us.

Which is fine, because the Burning Legion provides infinitely more value here. There is mountains of substance to worldbuild and create new stories off of the existence of the Burning Legion. But just saying "Disorder Lord agenda" is incredibly vague because it is inherently abstract.

That's why I doubt they actually made a Pantheon for Disorder. I wrote up a treatment for all the Zereths I theorized Zereth Tumult is where the Twisting Nether was created, and its purpose was to systematically draw fel influences & demonkind away from the rest of the known universe. Like a natural quarantine zone for demons.

That goes against my current "Twisting Nether is what existed before anything else" theory, but I think its one or the other: Either 1.) The First Ones designed the Twisting Nether to keep demons out of everyone's business, or 2.) The Twisting Nether is just manifested entropy & the natural destination for all things.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Illidan is a gnat compared to Y’Shaarj. His little eye beam attack would barely even tickle the Old Gods, and Illidan wouldn’t last very long if Y’Shaarj pumped all of his Void power into Illidan

Y’Shaarj Is an unknown as it was the titans who took him out but the other three old gods lost to the keepers who are all weaker then Illidan who can planet crack with some set up.

[Ersula]

Y’Shaarj Is an unknown as it was the titans who took him out but the other three old gods lost to the keepers who are all weaker then Illidan who can planet crack with some set up.

Oh yeah. Illidan literally blew up a planet. Though are we sure Nathreza was a full-fledged planet & not just a big meteorite like Outland or Telogrus?

[Joshuaj]

Yea, but this is explicitly my point that there are extremely muddied waters due to these powers being more abstract in nature.

We don't know their agenda because there is not even a mention of a "Disorder Lord", we're just using the transitive property from Void Lords here. We only really know of the Legion, which is fine because there is an incredible amount of lore for them, but the grander scheme of the "Pantheon of Disorder" is entirely unknown to us.

Which is fine, because the Burning Legion provides infinitely more value here. There is mountains of substance to worldbuild and create new stories off of the existence of the Burning Legion. But just saying "Disorder Lord agenda" is incredibly vague because it is inherently abstract.

Want me to be honest? Assuming there is a "Pantheon of Disorder", they wouldn't need a scheme. They'd just be about pure anarchy.

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Oh yeah. Illidan literally blew up a planet. Though are we sure Nathreza was a full-fledged planet & not just a big meteorite like Outland or Telogrus?

It was the greatest Legion world right next to Argus. Illidan made it so that it basically looked no different from Outland or Telogrus.

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That's why I doubt they actually made a Pantheon for Disorder. I wrote up a treatment for all the Zereths I theorized Zereth Tumult is where the Twisting Nether was created, and its purpose was to systematically draw fel influences & demonkind away from the rest of the known universe. Like a natural quarantine zone for demons.

That goes against my current "Twisting Nether is what existed before anything else" theory, but I think its one or the other: Either 1.) The First Ones designed the Twisting Nether to keep demons out of everyone's business, or 2.) The Twisting Nether is just manifested entropy & the natural destination for all things.

The Twisting Nether is the Domain of Disorder, and it's nature beyond the very little we've seen from Argus and other Legion worlds is unknown.

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It's entirely possible the Nether acts like the Warp, with different transcendant layers and whatnot, and within each layer, things get more and more chaotic and make far less sense.

Yes, this is basically me saying that we've seen from Argus and whatnot is not at all the depths of the Nether. If anything, I'd argue it's the Nether's most basic layer, since it manifests as a chaotic reflection of the Dark Beyond, much like the Void as we've seen it with Sarkareth, or the Emerald Dream as we've seen it so far (Where, prior to bleeding into the Domain of Life, folks can see the Dream not just reflect Azeroth, but other unknown areas likely across the physical universe. This makes sense, as the higher layers of the Dream span the entire Mortal Realm), etc.

[Houle]

Illidan who can planet crack with some set up.

Eh, so did Ner'zhul. Both of them didnt do it with raw personal power, so its not really much of a feat id say.

[Joshuaj]

Btw, the areas I mentioned above are likely much different from the cosmic veils. The cosmic veils are seemingly reflections of the Beyond as well, sure. However, if the Shadowlands veil is anything to go by, or the parts where players sort of bleed into the dream but not completely (Hence why things look the same, but green in those cases), then the veils are clearly not as complex lol.

The areas mentioned above are likely just the basic layers of the cosmic realms. Meaning, they're not the cosmic realms in full, but they are the areas shown where access to the Beyond is as it's strongest, since they basically bleed into it somewhat.

I want to also say that it is possible the layers that reflect the Beyond could also just not exist in some areas (like with the Shadowlands, since we haven't seen it use a unique reflection of the Beyond outside of the Veil. But if it does have a Dream or Nether like reflection, we just haven't seen it yet, unless you want to argue the Dream and Nether showcased were heavily tied to the veils of their respective realms, which is also a fine argument to make), or they could just exist for specific areas of a realm (Like how the Dream is with Life, assuming the Dream is just one of the realms of Life, and not the entire domain in full).

Just throwing my two cents out there. I may be wrong about all of this, as what I say is speculative for the most part.
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Eh, so did Ner'zhul. Both of them didnt do it with raw personal power, so its not really much of a feat id say.

Yep. Both required complex rituals.

However, there are better feats in mind regardless. And y'all are very clearly not looking hard enough.

I'm talking about Rakeesh's Fel Annihilator btw.

[Telogrus]

Y’Shaarj Is an unknown as it was the titans who took him out but the other three old gods lost to the keepers who are all weaker then Illidan who can planet crack with some set up.

Y'Shaarj is stronger than N'Zoth, who is much stronger than Azshara, who is stronger than the Lich King, who is stronger than WC3 Arthas, who is stronger than Illidan

[Ersula]

The Twisting Nether is the Domain of Disorder, and it's nature beyond the very little we've seen from Argus and other Legion worlds is unknown.

Honestly we know a lot more about the Twisting Nether than what the wherever the Naaru & Void lords are operating out of. It's described like an endless storm, but demons also use it like a wormhole, using it to travel vast distances & even circumvent the cycle of life & death. Sargeras was in charge of it, using it as a prison. The one question I would ask the devs at a lore panel is if the First Ones created it. Because if not I that means the Twisting Nether is the one thing most like what the Universe was like before the First Ones, and if they did create it, it means they're dumb because it was the biggest flaw & most exploitable thing in their plans for the universe.

[Joshuaj]

Honestly we know a lot more about the Twisting Nether than what the wherever the Naaru & Void lords are operating out of. It's described like an endless storm, but demons also use it like a wormhole, using it to travel vast distances & even circumvent the cycle of life & death. Sargeras was in charge of it, using it as a prison. The one question I would ask the devs at a lore panel is if the First Ones created it. Because if not I that means the Twisting Nether is the one thing most like what the Universe was like before the First Ones, and if they did create it, it means they're dumb because it was the biggest flaw & most exploitable thing in their plans for the universe.

Why is it the biggest flaw and most exploitable thing? It being chaotic and disorderly is how the Disorder Realm should work.

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Also, why do you think it came before the First Ones? That would go against the point of them being first. Would also go against the fact there's no frame of reference for them, which further benefits the idea they existed before, well, everything and nothing.

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Y'Shaarj is stronger than N'Zoth, who is much stronger than Azshara, who is stronger than the Lich King, who is stronger than WC3 Arthas, who is stronger than Illidan

God, this is so funny when you consider the fact the Lich King is likely stronger than Yogg-Saron's head, which is stronger than N'Zoth's head, which is stronger than Azshara and Deathwing lmaooo.

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Yeah, Warcraft scaling is fun

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Eh, so did Ner'zhul. Both of them didnt do it with raw personal power, so its not really much of a feat id say.

Ner’zhul did it by accident with the eye of Sargaras and the book of Medev while Illidan did it on purpose with jsut some goat and orc souls.

So while not all personal power it was far more power on his end compared to Ner’zhul.

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Y'Shaarj is stronger than N'Zoth, who is much stronger than Azshara, who is stronger than the Lich King, who is stronger than WC3 Arthas, who is stronger than Illidan

WC3 Arthas wasn’t stronger then Illidan, the novel lays out that he got lucky because Illidan was over confident and Illidan only survived a blow from frostmourn because he was incredibly powerful and he grew in power further post there battle.

Azshara Also isn’t likely to be stronger then the lichking given that without us stoping him he was suppose to wipe out and rule over a dead world in that future vision.

Y'Shaarj And N’Zoth is more dubious given that N’Zoth main power was effecting the mind and Y'Shaarj is just a total unknown beyond being the strongest.

[Houle]

So while not all personal power it was far more power on his end compared to Ner’zhul.

Not really, they still used pretty much the same method - collapsing a portal/multiple portals with a large amount of energy. Ner'zhul did it accidentally, and Illidan then copied what he did intentionally.

The point remains the same, Illidan did not use his own power, at all. Dont take me wrong, he is a powerhouse, but that same result couldve been archieved by many other characters in his position, as far as we know.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Not really, they still used pretty much the same method - collapsing a portal/multiple portals with a large amount of energy. Ner'zhul did it accidentally, and Illidan then copied what he did intentionally.

The point remains the same, Illidan did not use his own power, at all. Dont take me wrong, he is a powerhouse, but that same result couldve been archieved by many other characters in his position, as far as we know.

Ya the method is the same the difference is that where the power to achieve that method came from and Illidan got most of the power from his self while Ner'zhul had titan artifacts.

[Ersula]

Why is it the biggest flaw and most exploitable thing? It being chaotic and disorderly is how the Disorder Realm should work.

Also, why do you think it came before the First Ones? That would go against the point of them being first. Would also go against the fact there's no frame of reference for them, which further benefits the idea they existed before, well, everything and nothing.

Well, first of all it allowed Sargeras & The Jailer to team up & almost destroy everything the first ones' created. So I'd call that a flaw.

Secondly, besides that they're called "the first ones" not "the first things" denoting they were only the first people, we don't know they were the first of everything and they didn't even call themselves that. That's just what other people call them. You just keep conflating them with the Christian god & typical creation myths. They might have been able to part the ineffable chaos with their minds but the game's lore never states nothing existed before they enacted their designs; How they* describe it is that we, as mortals, would not be able to comprehend what came before, because everything mortal beings have reference for would be informed by the cosmology they created; but some things definitely existed before that.

For Example, that ineffable chaos they made the universe out of: Obviously that existed beforehand.

*They being the enlightened brokers, but anything out of writing can't be trusted their either....the brokers in ZM seem a little insane.

[Telogrus]

Why is it the biggest flaw and most exploitable thing? It being chaotic and disorderly is how the Disorder Realm should work.

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Also, why do you think it came before the First Ones? That would go against the point of them being first. Would also go against the fact there's no frame of reference for them, which further benefits the idea they existed before, well, everything and nothing.

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God, this is so funny when you consider the fact the Lich King is likely stronger than Yogg-Saron's head, which is stronger than N'Zoth's head, which is stronger than Azshara and Deathwing lmaooo.

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Yeah, Warcraft scaling is fun

Didn’t the Keepers canonically help out against Yogg?

[Joshuaj]

Didn’t the Keepers canonically help out against Yogg?

That is an optional thing you could do in-game, but I don't think it was ever talked about in Chronicle, and Chronicle usually talks about these fights in extensive detail. Lemme double check rq.

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Well, first of all it allowed Sargeras & The Jailer to team up & almost destroy everything the first ones' created. So I'd call that a flaw.

Secondly, besides that they're called "the first ones" not "the first things" denoting they were only the first people, we don't know they were the first of everything and they didn't even call themselves that. That's just what other people call them. You just keep conflating them with the Christian god & typical creation myths. They might have been able to part the ineffable chaos with their minds but the game's lore never states nothing existed before they enacted their designs; How they* describe it is that we, as mortals, would not be able to comprehend what came before, because everything mortal beings have reference for would be informed by the cosmology they created; but some things definitely existed before that.

For Example, that ineffable chaos they made the universe out of: Obviously that existed beforehand.

*They being the enlightened brokers, but anything out of writing can't be trusted their either....the brokers in ZM seem a little insane.

"First Ones" can mean anything. Being, thing, etc.

Also, Sargeras and the Jailer never teamed up. The Jailer likely knew about KJs Lich King plan, told the Dreadlords to help KJ with it, forced the Runecarver in making the schematics for the Helm of Domination and Frostmourne, gave the finalized products to the Dreadlords, and the Dreadlords gave them to KJ, with KJ thinking it was all to aid the Legion.

Would just be the Dreadlords hopping from one realm to the next. This isn't specific to just the Nether or anything like that. They do this with every cosmic realm.

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Also, regarding the First Ones, this is what Firim had to say regarding them pre-pattern:

"There are references to forces so primal that we have no frame of reference for them. Roiling and churning, or measured and deliberate? The words here have multiple meanings, I must set them aside for now.

What is clear is that great powers took shape. How many? There are numbers within numbers, my friends. At first I thought only two, until I perceived an infinite array -- O, the terror of it! -- but as of late I have settled on six. Possibly seven, but the last might be an artifact of the geometry. A fractal."

The First Ones, as they were shaping themselves, had no prior frame of reference for them. Meaning, they were...well...the first. Before beginnings and endings, before everything and nothing. It was just them. Fractal creation energies that took shape and were in constant strife with one another.

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The whole idea of the First Ones is that we quite literally can't comprehend them, not even on a cosmic level. This is because they are above all of that. They transcend everything shown within our cosmology.

[Lady Atia]

It's funny how we have a whole new main patch datamined yet all I see here are some lore discussion that frankly, should be in the lore section, not here. Especially as you guys just end up in a circle anyways.

So idk, maybe lets talk about the new patch instead of Shadowlands lore again?

- Anyone else excited to create new goblin toons for each Cartel now that we have established colour schemes, tabards and mounts for them?

- The raid renown is a great start, hopefully they will do that for each new raid going forward, and I also hope that it's actually only earnable during a season, giving ALL raiders (not just us cutting edge people) something to progress through during a season, "good" FOMO since everyone who just plays the raid weekly can finish it.

- Seems like no pvp reward changes, but hopefully if the raid renown is something people like we will also get a rated pvp renown aswell down the line.

- Speaking about pvp, the vicious mount (the eel) is super awesome this time, imo on par with gladiator mounts or the early glory mounts. If they had made me choose between the gladiator bat or the eel I would have chosen the eel!

- Tier sets are ok now that I tried them in the dressing room, elite ones I like seem to be hunter, rogue and evoker so next season will be a chill one haha.

[Ersula]

Like, how could physical brings and places exist before the physical universe? It's illogical.

But who said only physical things count as existing? If conceptual or incorporeal entities existed without a physical universe that would still count as existence. Even as human beings much of our experience is only things that exist within our minds but those things still exist in that way.

[Raetary]

Yeah, but not without physical brains.

We've been to Zereth Mortis, and it all seemed pretty... physical. How did they produce Eternal Ones robots that we are able to touch, made from some kind of metal, if there wasn't anything physical to work with?

Are we really trying to argue about Out-of-nothing Creation and quantum mechanics within a fictional video game setting where literal magic can poof anything you want into existence?


Like, idk dude, they waved their pre-existential, higher dimensional, divine pinkie toes and did the same thing that a mage does when conjuring a mana bun.

[milkmustache]

It's funny how we have a whole new main patch datamined yet all I see here are some lore discussion that frankly, should be in the lore section, not here. Especially as you guys just end up in a circle anyways.

So idk, maybe lets talk about the new patch instead of Shadowlands lore again?

- Anyone else excited to create new goblin toons for each Cartel now that we have established colour schemes, tabards and mounts for them?

- The raid renown is a great start, hopefully they will do that for each new raid going forward, and I also hope that it's actually only earnable during a season, giving ALL raiders (not just us cutting edge people) something to progress through during a season, "good" FOMO since everyone who just plays the raid weekly can finish it.

Hard agree.

I wish that the cartel variatrions were a bit more than just different colors, but it does sorta make sense inthe goblin world.

I'm very excited about the raid renown. If they're using the dinars system from Awakened/Fated seasons, that'd be incredible. It gives more reason to repeat raids, which should inevitably get people more ttained on the fights and able to prog! I like that they're seemingly making raids more accesible for people.