Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Nymrohd]

Not sure I agree with you there.

While it's true people tend to find patterns in things, there's also no real reason to doubt the suggestion that Blizzard would plan things years in advance.

I believe Tom Chilton, former Game Director, even said as much around WoD, that they were going to be building expansions that tie more into each other from now on over multiple years (as opposed to the earlier expansions which were more standalone and just explored various cool themes planted in WC1-3 and Vanilla).

Lo and behold, that's exactly what we're seeing.

WoD literally screams "TBC 2" in every way. Same location, same characters, same enemy, etc. Similarly, Legion clearly picks up where WoD left off, and carries out the invasion that Gul'dan set in motion.

The same thing happens with WotLK, BfA and Shadowlands. First WotLK introduced a bunch of stories, characters and locations (some from WC3 of course), them BfA reintroduced all of that (Sylvanas, Jaina, Arthas, Calia, etc) and ultimately set Shadowlands in motion. First with the Burning of Teldrassil, then the war and all the souls that claimed for the Maw (we know Sylvanas colluded with the Jailer at this time, and had mysteriously gotten his powers).

Now we're seeing the same thing happen to Cataclysm, Drahonflight and whatever comes next.

After that, it wouldn't surprise me if they pick up on MoP with a lighthearted expansion about pirates sailing to a quirky new land, without massive enemies on the horizon.

The question is, why would they build their story by following a recursive pattern instead of . . .I don't know, following where the story goes

[Alanar]

Tbh the Zereth Mortis announcement was much more cringe.

I am not even sure I have seen it, might have skipped that one.

[ImTheMizAwesome]

Tbh the Zereth Mortis announcement was much more cringe.

Water like you've never seen before!

Or was it "unlike any water you've seen before" i don't remember, but i remember jokes about it.

[Kiivar86]

Not sure I agree with you there.

While it's true people tend to find patterns in things, there's also no real reason to doubt the suggestion that Blizzard would plan things years in advance.

I believe Tom Chilton, former Game Director, even said as much around WoD, that they were going to be building expansions that tie more into each other from now on over multiple years (as opposed to the earlier expansions which were more standalone and just explored various cool themes planted in WC1-3 and Vanilla). This is later corroborated Danuser, who said 9.2 was kind of the end of "one book" in WoW. The end of the Lich King/Death trilogy, makes perfect sense.

Lo and behold, that's exactly what we're seeing.

WoD literally screams "TBC 2" in every way. Same location, same characters, same enemy, etc. Similarly, Legion clearly picks up where WoD left off, and carries out the invasion that Gul'dan set in motion.

The same thing happens with WotLK, BfA and Shadowlands. First WotLK introduced a bunch of stories, characters and locations (some from WC3 of course), them BfA reintroduced all of that (Sylvanas, Jaina, Arthas, Calia, etc) and ultimately set Shadowlands in motion. First with the Burning of Teldrassil, then the war and all the souls that claimed for the Maw (we know Sylvanas colluded with the Jailer at this time, and had mysteriously gotten his powers).

Now we're seeing the same thing happen to Cataclysm, Drahonflight and whatever comes next.

After that, it wouldn't surprise me if they pick up on MoP with a lighthearted expansion about pirates sailing to a quirky new land, without massive enemies on the horizon.

I can imagine them planning things out a few expansions, sure. But the idea that they're doing this "well TBC was Outland and Legion involved so our fifth expansion will involve Draenor and the sixth will involve the Legion. And then WotLK was Old Gods and Scourge, so expansion eight will be Old God and nine is Undead"

Its just such tortured logic. This is like trying to use Nostradamus' "prophecies" to figure shit out after the fact. Slamming a square peg into the circle hole hard enough to force it through.

[micwini]

Water like you've never seen before!

Or was it "unlike any water you've seen before" i don't remember, but i remember jokes about it.

Water you can walk on!!!!
I think the better thing they could have said was "water you cant swim in", because to me that was the real wtf moment when I actually played the zone for the first time.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

You'd have to be blind and deaf (no offense) if you don't see that WoD sets Legion in motion, BfA sets SL in motion, and that DF is setting something involving the elements etc in motion right now.

Obviously but another elemental related expansion seems very unlikely and I think that might be too much(I'd enjoy it personally but games have an audience not just me).

[Alanar]

Water you can walk on!!!!
I think the better thing they could have said was "water you cant swim in", because to me that was the real wtf moment when I actually played the zone for the first time.

Hahah, that is so true. Completely forgot about how weirdly excited it was brought.

Df roundtable still takes the cake honestly. "Its so awesome"

[ImTheMizAwesome]

Hahah, that is so true. Completely forgot about how weirdly excited it was brought.

Df roundtable still takes the cake honestly. "Its so awesome"

Honestly, these fake roundtables that some devs do for their games, always make you feel like they're treating you like an idiot with 2IQ.

I hope they won't have one for next expansion.

[Murlocos]

I don't buy into the "expansions post-MoP are planned reduxes of previous expansions all in order" theorizing. It simultaneously implies much more planning ahead than they actually do and also is too creatively limiting to exist as a set in stone rule. I'm also someone who thinks they throw out Old God whispers as a means to rile up discussion while having no real plan for them, to be fair.

On a previous note, I actually wonder if we'll see Metzen in any big role at Blizzcon. He's aged a lot in the 7-8 years since he worked one as the hype man, and I believe he's trying to work in a much more lowkey role now since he stepped away due to stress before.

[Lady Atia]

No way they're going to miss the opportunity of having Metzen announcing the next expansion if he's around T-T that would be brilliant

I don't think that would work with his anxiety tbh.

[ImTheMizAwesome]

Well, metzen was at very different position in blizzard than he is now, so he might be more comfortable now to do a one-off announcement, but if not then everyone will perfectly understand.

Like i mentioned before, just don't let John hight do it.

[Lady Atia]

Well, metzen was at very different position in blizzard than he is now, so he might be more comfortable now to do a one-off announcement, but if not then everyone will perfectly understand.

Like i mentioned before, just don't let John hight do it.

From what I remember he couldn't even really attend the last Blizzcon fully because of panic attacks. But yeah, I'm quite sure Ion will just do the announcement again.

[Telogrus]

and the Order magic which had always resided inside with the slumbering Titan.

I’m not so sure about that…

With the current lore, I doubt that Azeroth is just gonna be an innate being of Order. I don’t expect her to naturally belong to any of the six forces, otherwise the universe would be blatantly unbalanced. Frankly, I doubt that any of the Titans are natural beings of Order. I think the Pantheon was just corrupted by Order the same way that Telogrus was being corrupted by Void (until Sargeras split him in half) and Argus was corrupted by Death to the point where he became a being of Death (hence why he went to the Shadowlands when he died)

[Kiivar86]

Out of curiosity, how do you think Marvel operates over at Disney? They quite literally do this. They plan for the future of the IP, by splitting up groups of movies into different "phases" or whatever they call them. Then each IP also has a number of sequels, all planned in advance.

Why is it so strange to fathom the idea that a billion dollar business like Activision Blizzard, known for having IPs with lots of sequels and ongoing stories, would do the same?

I do imagine that Disney plans things out (at least with Marvel. Star Wars...debatable). But that's also a completely different company and generally medium(s).

I'm not saying they (Blizzard) doesn't plan things out, I'm sure they do. But I'm questioning how far. That whole theme thing would indicate that they had shit planned out generally for at least ten expansions from pretty much the word go. I doubt that when they were putting together TBC they were thinking of what they were going to be doing some fifteen years later.

I can't see it.

Like, fuck, if that were true the Jailer would've been handled a bit better at the least!

[Kiivar86]

For fun, here are a few sources which corroborate my suggestion that Blizzard returned to their old expansion concepts after MoP, that they plan expansions years in advance,

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/wo.../1100-6440686/

https://www.engadget.com/2014-08-26-...expansion.html

- - - Updated - - -



That's not what I'm saying though. The specifics of an expansion's story, I am sure they are way more spontaneous about. Was it in Shadowlands, when they told us something to the degree that they had basically decided a major plot point mere months in advance? I can't recall what it was, but there was a discussion online about that.

What I'm suggesting, as the articles I linked above show, is that around MoP/WoD they started to develop expansions differently. They started returning to old cool stories from the past. They started to tie expansions into each other more, and plan more ahead. For example, they thought that Legion's story kind of started in MoP already. They also knew roughly what they could be doing 10 years into the future. Well, we know know what expansions we got over the next 10 years, so...

I still don't agree, I'm sorry. I do think they do things differently but I don't think its the way you are thinking it is. I can see them having some general (very general) idea of how things will go, sure. But the theme thing we're talking about is too structured for that, at least to me, and also way too forward thinking.

We'll have to agree to disagree here, I feel. I just don't see it. I get your side, believe me, but I don't see it.

If it turns out the next expansion is elemental themed, then maybe I'll admit defeat, though. Or at least say there is some validity.

(I highly doubt it'll be elemental though)

[Hitei]

For fun, here are a few sources which corroborate my suggestion that Blizzard returned to their old expansion concepts after MoP, that they plan expansions years in advance,

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/wo.../1100-6440686/

https://www.engadget.com/2014-08-26-...expansion.html

They plan expansions like one in advance and then general ideas for the expansion after that.

None of that particularly evidences the reliability of random guessing at what a next sequential expansion will be about. Everyone has known that a second Legion expansion was inevitable since MoP had Wrathion worried about their return, but instead of going into the invasion, it sidetracked into WoD and then into Legion. Everyone has known Azshara and N'zoth were going to be an expansion since Cata, but Cata didn't lead into them, it led into largely unrelated MoP, and then WoD, and then Legion and then from the sort of entirely random point of "Sargeras stabs the planet and a war starts" it circled back around to that dangling plot line.

This is an elemental expansion. It could be the only elemental-focused expansion for the next decade and a half. The Primalists could be completely defeated and 10.3 could be entirely about the Void and go into a Void expansion. The elemental threat could be beaten but retreat and come back in four expansions with an elemental invasion from below. The primalists could be largely beaten and fall back into a role as a permanent antagonistic force that shows up now and then (this is imho, the most likely point of this entire "elemental" setup, because the Legion, Cult of the Damned and Twilight forces have all been largely destroyed, leaving a void for culty antagonist faction. The Elements could go completely wild at the end of 10.X, handwaving a revamp but then not being a major theme for 11.0.

It's impossible to tell because the actual pattern here is just "Blizzard has ongoing narratives and plotlines that they bring back at varied and arbitrary frequency". That isn't a MoP/WoD thing. Cata followed up entirely on Vanilla stuff, and Wrath stuff, and BC stuff. Wrath followed up on Vanilla stuff.

[Skildar]

Well, metzen was at very different position in blizzard than he is now, so he might be more comfortable now to do a one-off announcement, but if not then everyone will perfectly understand.

Like i mentioned before, just don't let John hight do it.

I don't know enough about the guy but he really lacks the energy and self assurance on stage to do a good job at entertaining the audience for the release of a new game.

But at the same time I felt that Ion was always making me uncomfortable during his first years at blizzard and today he's very capable when it comes to presenting new stuff to the audience and getting people exciting. I still have in mind that moments where he's like "so this is a picture that you're all seeing for the first time" when the thing has leaked all over the internet or "ohh that's why bolvar's eyes are red"

But I know I'm in the Ion seem fine as a director when most of the mmo-c community is on the other side or on the fence about him

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I do imagine that Disney plans things out (at least with Marvel. Star Wars...debatable). But that's also a completely different company and generally medium(s).

I'm not saying they (Blizzard) doesn't plan things out, I'm sure they do. But I'm questioning how far. That whole theme thing would indicate that they had shit planned out generally for at least ten expansions from pretty much the word go. I doubt that when they were putting together TBC they were thinking of what they were going to be doing some fifteen years later.

I can't see it.

Like, fuck, if that were true the Jailer would've been handled a bit better at the least!

10 expansions in advance no, 1-3 expansions, yes thats believable. I wouldn't say they've planned all this since TBC, no things obviously changes and well its more complicated then I can sum up.

[Hitei]

2012 - 2015

Then onwards to Mists of Pandaria. They likely felt like they had created a bit of a "big bad fatigue" for the playerbase. Also, player numbers had fallen drastically with Cataclysm. China was a growing market to tap into. Kung Fu Panda was a hit with younger kids. Anime and manga surging in popularity. It probably felt logical to try something different at this point (and I don't blame them, MoP was stellar).

It's unclear when, but at some point during MoP's development they likely had a meeting to discuss their crisis and dwindling subscriber numbers. I mean jesus, they had lost like 75% of their subscriber base over a single expansion. That's insanely worrying for a company whose main source of income was WoW.

I'm guessing that the meeting went something like this: "Fuck. This is bad. Remember the good old days? What did we do differently then? Ah... Illidan, Arthas, and stuff. Old Warcraft lore the fans know and love. Let's do that again!"

Your theory sorta falls apart here though. MoP itself was an attempt to get back to the previous status quo. They felt that they had been too dark and heavy and wanted to get back to the core pieces of WoW: exploring a fantastical mysterious place and Horde and Alliance fighting. WoD wasn't about imitating past golden ages with wow, it was a highly experimental attempt to go back to WC3 roots, specifically because a lot of people playing by then had never touched WC3, so they wanted an in-game way to see those origins of the Horde.

BfA and Shadowlands were both largely about cleaning up old unresolved plotlines. They "cleaned up" the faction conflict, the Azshara (herald of N'zoth) line, N'zoth and the Old Gods, Sylvanas and the identity of the Horde, Arthas. Shadowlands is very obviously an "end of the era" expansion.

DF is very much (in their own words) the start of a new book. Which also makes it impossible to actually guess with any certainty what is coming next. It is an expansion establishing a bunch of new threats. New elemental forces and cults, new void incursions, recasting Azshara as a threat free of the Old Gods' agenda, refreshing the Infinite flight, a larger focus on the six way opposition of the cosmic forces.

It's unlikely, in my opinion, that 11.0 will be an elemental expansion, because they're not going to want to get rid of/deal with the new elemental antagonism right after they've established them. The Incarnates will be dealt/bargained with, the primalists will endure as an anti-order/titan faction attempting to free Azeroth back to a primordial state. 11.0 will likely also introduce a bunch of new potential oppositions, so that there's a large roster of things to pull from in the coming years.

[Kiivar86]

I respect that. But let me try to paint a picture here. Just one plausible scenario, as I see it. Just to illustrate that I don't think their planning has to have been so elaborate as you say it would for my theory to make sense.

You certainly are persuasive, I'll give you that!

When laid out like that I can see your side better. Still think my line of thought is right though, but if I'm wrong, trust me, I'll be upfront and eat my crow.