Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Hitei]

I'm confused by your first paragraph. That's literally what I said in my post, isn't it? That they worried they had given players a "big bad fatigue" (e.g. too much doom and gloom with world ending threats). That was a huge part of what they made MoP, I think. Metzen spoke vividly about this when he introduced the expansion. Oh, and I just recalled another interesting bit of information. On a launch event for MoP, Metzen was up on stage and took questions. One question from the audience was about Turalyon and Alleria, and whether they'd ever return to Azeroth. Metzen said "in terms of what's coming next, you're gonna need their help", attempting not to spoil too much of the story. So at that point already, he knew many of the story elements they were cooking up for Legion.

What you say about WoD is also not counter to what I said. I said it was an attempt to return to the good old days, and lore lore fans know and love. In fact, I mentioned the value of WoW's "WC3 roots" several times in my post. The mistake you're making though, I feel like, is not considering business in your thinking. You seem to be going entirely based on what they say in official PR, and not at all on what the market or subscription numbers looked like, Blizzard's (then) financial dilemmas, etc. You gotta take those things into account dude.

The way you framed it made it sound like they felt MoP was too much of a departure from the established warcraft-ness of TBC through Cata. You specifically said "they wanted to try something different (anime, kung fu panda, etc) but MoP was their attempt to get back to the core structure of exploration and war, not attempt something new.

I'm not really basing this on PR, it's evident in the in-game design. WoD wasn't attempting to capitalize on nostalgic fans, that would have been an alternate Lordaeron or something. To begin with "old WC3 fans" was far from a viable market group to appeal to at that stage in the game. I am 100% considering business in my thinking. The profit they were chasing are newer people who hadn't experienced WC3, with newer interests (player housing), expecting newer looking content (race visual updates). WoD was a bet on novelty, not a return to basics. MoP was the return to basics.

As for BfA and Shadowlands, yes they were absolutely aimed at cleaning up old and unresolved storylines. That's a large point I was making in my post. That WoD -> Legion and later BfA -> Shadowlands had a large emphasis on revisiting old lore, connecting to past stories and characters, and so on. You are also correct in saying Shadowlands was an "end of an era"-expansion, which is something I mentioned in my post. Danuser clearly said 9.2 closed one book and opened another, or something to that degree. That's what I'm arguing. Legion (at least for now) closed the book on the Burning Legion, Shadowlands (at least for now) closed the book on Arthas, the Scourge and all that business, and 11.0 will (at least for now) close the book on the Old Gods, Elementals, etc,

You are absolutely right in saying DF is the start of something new. It is! Because Shadowlands was the end of something else! Notice the sharp constrast between Legion/BfA and then Shadowlands/Dragonflight. The reason for that is precisely because they are all part of their own trilogies (one might say of "books").

Note that I'm not suggesting 11.0 has to go all-in on elementals, nor am I saying that if they were to do so, we'll never see the elementals again. Demons are still around after Legion. The undead are still around after Shadowlands. We're not deleting those cosmic forces from the universe, merely concluding large stories focusing on them, going back all the way to Warcraft 3. New stories will open up in the future. We will meet characters like Illidan again at some point.

As far as I'm concerned, 11.0 likely involves Old Gods and/or the Void in a more primal form in some way, the elements and/or the Elementals in some form, and characters like Thrall, the Dragon Aspects, etc. Likely, some Old God or other notable character representing the Void will also be present. (Queen Azshara? Xal'atath? Who knows.) I also believe a World Revamp is likely. With the end of 11.0, I do believe we'll be seeing less of the above for a while. That's it.

Then when 12.0 comes around, I think it's plausible, but not for certain, that we'll have a very jolly and relaxed expansion where we follow the Pirate Armada and look for Avaloren or something to that degree.

The book is already closed on the Old Gods and Elementals. That is what I am saying. Shadowlands isn't part of DF's trilogy. There aren't any trilogies to begin with. WoD > Legion > BfA > Shadowlands is a cohesive four section story about the end of WC3 characters. You're making weird divisions here in an attempt to guess what comes next, but the actual division here is:

WC3 > Vanilla > BC > Wrath | | Cataclysm || MoP || WoD > Legion > BfA > Shadowlands | | Dragonflight

The reason why the theory (not "yours" per se, but the original CN pattern it's based on), is incorrect is because Dragonflight isn't a continuation of anything. Deathwing's story (and the Aspects) were firmly ended in Cata. This isn't a sequel, it's a spinoff. There's no Elementals to close the book on because the old Elementals already had their book closed in Cataclysm. The point of DF is establishing the very first entry in entirely new elemental book. It uses a revised elemental set of Earth, Fire, Storm (lightning) and Ice instead of Earth, Fire, Wind and Water, disconnected from traditional shamanism, with added spirit and decay as individual forces. It has a new set of four elemental big bads, the Incarnates, it has a new faction of elemental aligned mortals, the Primalists. It's not going to close out the narrative because this isn't the Dragon and Elemental narrative from Cata. This is Dragons 2.0, preparing for a new permanent status quo of dragons, and Elemental 2.0, preparing a new age of elemental antagonists.

Dragonflight isn't Cataclysm, it's WC3. Shadowlands was meant to firmly finish the previous large scale moving parts, so that Dragonflight could be a disconnected soft reboot, 11.0 isn't going to be dealing with threats from before Shadowlands, it's going to be building out the 2.0 era with more factions and moving parts for this new narrative progression. 12.0 probably won't be some disconnected break expansion, because we're sitting at the start of a disconnect that needs more building. So the next several expansions will be about expanding the dragonflight seeds, not an open and closed small narrative. The elemental forces introduced in DF probably aren't going to be shut down the way the Legion or Scourge were, they are going to be disseminated from a singular group on one island attempting a specific thing, to a world-spanning decentralized force around for years to come.

[George Lucas]

The way you framed it made it sound like they felt MoP was too much of a departure from the established warcraft-ness of TBC through Cata. You specifically said "they wanted to try something different (anime, kung fu panda, etc) but MoP was their attempt to get back to the core structure of exploration and war, not attempt something new.

I'm not really basing this on PR, it's evident in the in-game design. WoD wasn't attempting to capitalize on nostalgic fans, that would have been an alternate Lordaeron or something. To begin with "old WC3 fans" was far from a viable market group to appeal to at that stage in the game. I am 100% considering business in my thinking. The profit they were chasing are newer people who hadn't experienced WC3, with newer interests (player housing), expecting newer looking content (race visual updates). WoD was a bet on novelty, not a return to basics. MoP was the return to basics.


The book is already closed on the Old Gods and Elementals. That is what I am saying. Shadowlands isn't part of DF's trilogy. There aren't any trilogies to begin with. WoD > Legion > BfA > Shadowlands is a cohesive four section story about the end of WC3 characters. You're making weird divisions here in an attempt to guess what comes next, but the actual division here is:

WC3 > Vanilla > BC > Wrath | | Cataclysm || MoP || WoD > Legion > BfA > Shadowlands | | Dragonflight

The reason why the theory (not "yours" per se, but the original CN pattern it's based on), is incorrect is because Dragonflight isn't a continuation of anything. Deathwing's story (and the Aspects) were firmly ended in Cata. This isn't a sequel, it's a spinoff. There's no Elementals to close the book on because the old Elementals already had their book closed in Cataclysm. The point of DF is establishing the very first entry in entirely new elemental book. It uses a revised elemental set of Earth, Fire, Storm (lightning) and Ice instead of Earth, Fire, Wind and Water, disconnected from traditional shamanism, with added spirit and decay as individual forces. It has a new set of four elemental big bads, the Incarnates, it has a new faction of elemental aligned mortals, the Primalists. It's not going to close out the narrative because this isn't the Dragon and Elemental narrative from Cata. This is Dragons 2.0, preparing for a new permanent status quo of dragons, and Elemental 2.0, preparing a new age of elemental antagonists.

Dragonflight isn't Cataclysm, it's WC3. Shadowlands was meant to firmly finish the previous large scale moving parts, so that Dragonflight could be a disconnected soft reboot, 11.0 isn't going to be dealing with threats from before Shadowlands, it's going to be building out the 2.0 era with more factions and moving parts for this new narrative progression. 12.0 probably won't be some disconnected break expansion, because we're sitting at the start of a disconnect that needs more building. So the next several expansions will be about expanding the dragonflight seeds, not an open and closed small narrative. The elemental forces introduced in DF probably aren't going to be shut down the way the Legion or Scourge were, they are going to be disseminated from a singular group on one island attempting a specific thing, to a world-spanning decentralized force around for years to come.

How can you say that Battle for Azeroth is a direct continuation of Legion, while WoD isn't of MoP, when the whole Garrosh plot is pretty much set up from BC to Wrath to Cata to MoP to WoD.

There are certain themes that overlap in Shadowlands and Wrath of the Lich King, Cataclysm and Dragonflight, Burning Crusade and Legion. That's it. There is no division. Just themes and fatigue of certain themes, that Blizzard sometimes picks up on early and sometimes they don't.

Dragonflight heavily borrows from Cataclysm. Shadowlands finishing any chapter of WoW is just marketing nonsense. 11.0 will most likely rehash most of it's themes from previous expansions, with a spin depending on what was popular 1 year ago in pop culture

Old gods will reappear, elemental lords will reappear, whenever Blizzard employees are pressured into inserting more nostalgia, like Onyxia or the Defias in the Human heritage questline. It doesn't need to make sense, it just have to check certain boxes some out of touch managers decide on.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

I don't know enough about the guy but he really lacks the energy and self assurance on stage to do a good job at entertaining the audience for the release of a new game.

I don't think that would work with his anxiety tbh.

It's a shame that Metzen's health demands he withdraw from his old habits. I'll miss his enthusiastic disposition, but the man's well-being takes precedence.

Then again, his panic attacks were some time ago and seemed very circumstantial. Are we certain that his anxiety hasn't subsided since then?

[Hitei]

How can you say that Battle for Azeroth is a direct continuation of Legion, while WoD isn't of MoP, when the whole Garrosh plot is pretty much set up from BC to Wrath to Cata to MoP to WoD.

There are certain themes that overlap in Shadowlands and Wrath of the Lich King, Cataclysm and Dragonflight, Burning Crusade and Legion. That's it. There is no division. Just themes and fatigue of certain themes, that Blizzard sometimes picks up on early and sometimes they don't.

Mop is largely about MoP. The entire front half is about Pandaria, the back half is about Garrosh.

WoD distinctly does not follow from MoP beyond the most basic of triggers. MoP wasn't about timelines, it wasn't about Draenor, it wasn't even really about Orcs, just Garrosh specifically. None of the pandaren you get to know help out in WoD, or even Wrathion, or even most of the rank and file Alliance/Horde, WoD isn't really about Garrosh, he's the trigger, yes, but that's all. He starts the expansion and then leaves to go wait in Nagrand until he dies in a questline. WoD is about it's own storyline, the Draenei, the Orcs, the Ogres, the elemental forces of that world, the Legion's influence on the Orcs. It's not a continuation of MoP's storyline, it's a fairly self-contained storyline that is setting up the Legion.

Gul'dan is not Garrosh. He is a major player, he is there all the way until the third act, his legion gambit from WoD rolls directly into the Legion one. The characters who are with you are characters WoD built up rapport for, Khadgar, Cordana who turns traitor, Gul'dan. Legion then does the same thing, during the course of its story it sets up the basis for BfA, you see Genn brought to the forefront against Sylvanas, Varian is lost leaving Anduin as the unsure leader, it even lays the earliest suggestions of the Jailer and pantheon of Death.

The connection between MoP and Wod is just sort of tacked on at the end, and the stories themselves are largely separate with separate casts. The story from WoD to Shadowlands is more of a continuous narrative.

Dragonflight heavily borrows from Cataclysm. Shadowlands finishing any chapter of WoW is just marketing nonsense. 11.0 will most likely rehash most of it's themes from previous expansions, with a spin depending on what was popular 1 year ago in pop culture

Old gods will reappear, elemental lords will reappear, whenever Blizzard employees are pressured into inserting more nostalgia, like Onyxia or the Defias in the Human heritage questline. It doesn't need to make sense, it just have to check certain boxes some out of touch managers decide on.

It's not marketing nonsense at all. Did you just not pay attention to storylines? It put an end to Arthas permanently, it put an end to Sylvanas' arc as a leader in any capacity, it removed Anduin from the line. It finished off the remnants of the Horde vs Alliance conflict, it put an end to the Scourge and Lich King as a concept.

Dragonflight has similar thematics to Cataclysm, it also isn't very similar beyond that.

Old Gods are all dead. The only one surviving in any capacity is Xal'atath, who isn't in the form of an Old God. The Elemental Lords haven't been relevant in 10 years and were completely replaced as a notable power in this expansion. You're too busy poorly attempting to leverage this conversation into a completely unrelated argument about why you don't like Blizzard for me to bother reexplaining how DF is establishing new moving parts.

[Hitei]

Test 1

Which WoW expansion heavily features Medivh or Khadgar, Illidan Stormrage, Gul'dan, Maiev and her Wardens, Turalyon and Alleria and their son Arator, Kil'jaeden, Archimonde, Velen, Dread Lords, lots of Naaru, The Burning Legion, Orc and Draenei history, Elven history, lots of Fel magic, magical portals which take us to worlds in the Twisting Nether which the Burning Legion has destroyed, and so on?

Test 2

Which WoW expansion heavily features Arthas and the Menethil family, Bolvar Fordragon, the Lich King, Jaina Proudmoore, Uther the Lightbringer, Kel'thuzad, Sylvanas Windrunner, locations tied to Death, stories of loss and death, vengeance, mass loss of life and harvesting of souls, the Forsaken and the Undercity, strange necromantic magic and death cults, etc?

Test 3

Which WoW expansion heavily features Deathwing/Neltharion, Dragons and the Aspects, the elements, Elementals and their Lords or leaders, large cults, world revamps and/or just changes to the world and its climate, Thrall, the looming threat of the Void and their Hour of Twilight, etc?

That you have to name 20 different things, none of which actually appear in all of the expansions, include "either or" options like "Maiev or literally any warden" or "any member of the menethil family appears", and use things as tennuous as "there are portals to places" should be a red flag to you.

You know what also fits 2? Legion. It's the expansion that reintroduces Calia, it features Bolvar and the Lich King, Uther, it features Sylvanas in a forefront position, it has multiple ties to death including visiting the afterlife and dealing with a major power of death, it has stories of loss and death, vengeance, mass loss of life, harvesting of souls, the Forsaken, strange necromantic magic and death cults.

Do you know what also fits 3? BfA. It involves Neltharion, Dragons and the Aspects in both Highmountain and in researching the Heart Forge, it involves elements and elementals, large cults, changes to the world and its climate, Thrall, the looming threat of the Void and its hour of twilight, etc.

Because really these patterns mean nothing at all and picking expansions that vaguely line up is just arbitrary pattern creation. Which is why you're having to do shit like ignore half of Sylvanas' entire story because the actual death/necromancy plot progression, which is WC3 > Vanilla > Wrath > Cata > Legion > BfA > Shadowlands, doesn't fit the "pattern" of these made up trilogies, despite Legion and Cata being much, much more significant parts of the Sylvanas and ultimately Jailer narrative than Wrath was.

[Chickat]

Green jesus on Blizzcon 2023 art, we will see more of thrall in coming patches besides the orc heritage armor? or maybe in new expansion.

Call back to thrall for WoW keyart screams world revamp to me personally. What other reason would he be there? Maybe if we go back to Draenor or something but that seems unlikely.

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I think it lends credence to either World Revamp or Lightbound invasion. Though I imagine Velen would also star alongside Thrall as the main Alliance aligned character to oppose Yrel.

Avaloren and South Seas definitely lose some points being next if this art is any indication.

I think its also safe to assume that a light invasion storyline would revamp at least small sections of the world too. Maybe the top half of the Eastern Kingdoms.

[Eeram]

Green jesus on Blizzcon 2023 art, we will see more of thrall in coming patches besides the orc heritage armor? or maybe in new expansion.

Not sure if this has been said befor but 3 out of the 5 characters have some form of Exploration built into there character. Winston with space. Elise Starseeker is literally in the League of Explorers an Thrall Exploring and trying to find the Orcs/Horde there Home befor Org was built. LMAO i know its a strech but i dont know much about lilith or the gnome.

[Skytotem]

Not sure if this has been said befor but 3 out of the 5 characters have some form of Exploration built into there character. Winston with space. Elise Starseeker is literally in the League of Explorers an Thrall Exploring and trying to find the Orcs/Horde there Home befor Org was built. LMAO i know its a strech but i dont know much about lilith or the gnome.

Gnome is just from the bad mobile game.

Lilith... I guess founded sanctuary.

[Chickat]

I know that's why I said two expansions would be another way to make it work.



I don't think more patches would make Shadowlands much better because the expansion was unpopular in nearly every aspect: lore, theme, and gameplay. Meanwhile, I think the only weak part of Dragonflight is the lore, since both the gameplay and themes are pretty good.

I'm not against new characters, but they need build-up. We just meet the Incarnates or the Death Pantheon and proceed to kill them, that's neither fulfilling nor exciting.

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A World Revamp would allow many story plots to happen on a minor scale in multiple regions, as we saw back in Vanilla, so I dearly hope Blizzard doesn't follow the Cataclysm pattern where everything is about "one threat".

I dont think DF lore is bad. Its fine. Nothing groundbreaking, but its definitely not as bad as BFA or Shadowlands.

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Do we have anything encrypted that could be a Blizzcon reward at this point? Though obviously digital tickets will not be available for a while longer.

That would probably pop up in 10.1.7 or 10.2 datamining.

[Luck4]

I dont think DF lore is bad. Its fine. Nothing groundbreaking, but its definitely not as bad as BFA or Shadowlands.

I agree, both BFA and SL are beyond terrible IMO, the only thing I liked in BFA was Jaina's story in 8.0, and nothing in SL.

But I used "weak" to describe DF lore because the Incarnates/Primalists plot is shallow, we never heard about them, nor they were ever hinted before.

Personally, I really don't care if any of the Incarnates will be redeemed or not, if they're all getting killed, or if their story will be finished in a quest or raid. I'm more interested in speculating what the next expansion is about than how DF will conclude, something that didn't feel back in Legion/Wrath/Cataclysm/Pandaria.

These are the best memories I have from these expansions, I couldn't care less about the next expansion back when those patches were around the corner:



I know many people will criticize me, but I was truly hyped for 4.3:

[Eeram]

Gnome is just from the bad mobile game.

Lilith... I guess founded sanctuary.

So what we think Thrall leads us to Alvaloran? or Elemental Expansion?

[Revamp Man]

So what we think Thrall leads us to Alvaloran? or Elemental Expansion?

I mean he was the world shaman at one point
The elements connection to him weakening might not be because he cheated in WoD but because there's something wrong and the incarnates could just be making it worse

Iridikron could have this new demon soul-esque item to drain the power from all of the lords

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We need 10.2 to either have the frost incarnate or iridikron

I'm going through old void whispers to see if there's any hints because they normally are decent hints

[Hyde]

Remember when a lot of people were against the return of talent trees when it was suggested before DFL?

I wouldn't really take people who really for the removal of talent trees seriously. Their opinions and goalposts change based on Blizz's changes. Somehow, magically they were for it when previously they were against it.

[Nymrohd]

It could also be that Thrall is just important in 10.3

BTW one thing I haven't seen discussed
Why is Fyrakk working with Igira? What is she crafting for him? In the suffusion camps the focus clearly is shaping metal to deliver to Igira and Fyrakk. Every NPC tells us so in different ways. So they are making something. Either Igira is making spears to kill the Aspects or she is making Fyrakk plating so he can survive the shadowflame just like Deathwing did. While the second option makes more sense to me, we did just get that fight in Aberrus with Kazzara so it seems unlikely. Maybe something else entirely?
I really expect that two boss raid to happen.

[KayRule]

next expansion will be Undermine with Void theme

[Hyde]

It could also be that Thrall is just important in 10.3

BTW one thing I haven't seen discussed
Why is Fyrakk working with Igira? What is she crafting for him? In the suffusion camps the focus clearly is shaping metal to deliver to Igira and Fyrakk. Every NPC tells us so in different ways. So they are making something. Either Igira is making spears to kill the Aspects or she is making Fyrakk plating so he can survive the shadowflame just like Deathwing did. While the second option makes more sense to me, we did just get that fight in Aberrus with Kazzara so it seems unlikely. Maybe something else entirely?
I really expect that two boss raid to happen.

Oh, I love your theory that Fyrakk's going to be Deathwing 2.0. He already burning people alive when he is in the zone, like DW!! Maybe we can use what ever spears Igira is making to destroy the Incarnates?

[Nymrohd]

Oh, I love your theory that Fyrakk's going to be Deathwing 2.0. He already burning people alive when he is in the zone, like DW!! Maybe we can use what ever spears Igira is making to destroy the Incarnates?

I don't know what she is making but she is making something. The plot of the Suffusion camps is that they are making ingots and using molds so they are shaping something made with metal. We know that Igira made those spears that we tried to use on Fyrakk and badly hurt Ebyssian. Maybe she is preparing larger ones to try and kill the Aspects. Or maybe they are making something completely different like a Shadowflame bomb. I just think they'd make a solid two boss raid to finish 10.1.7 and the black dragonflight story (and maybe we can get Ebyssian's custom model)

[loras]

next expansion will be Undermine with Void theme

I think i did a thingy once where Y'shaarj returns as a comet and sort of "becomes" part of the new continent and his impact crater cracks open Undermine halfway, involving it nicely and also showing in a funny way that goblins are possibly the most populous faction on Azeroth (I kinda imagine a bit of a humorous scene where even the old gods tire of the amount of goblins that even they just can't seem to get rid of).

Is that sufficiently void-y?

I mean the void lords first sent the old gods as comets and we know they're "unkillable", might make sense that Y'shaarj finally managed to regenerate after we "released" his last ties to the physical realm by cleaning up his heart and the Sha in MoP.

Might also offer a nice way to let the Sha return, as their unique aesthetics were very nice.

[Teriz]

next expansion will be Undermine with Void theme

Undermine is attached to Tinker class, so unless Blizzard is doing back to back new classes, this is doubtful. Maybe in 12.0, but not 11.0.

[Skytotem]

So what we think Thrall leads us to Alvaloran? or Elemental Expansion?

Given their thing for 'cycles' (repeating storybeats because they're afraid or incapable of trying something new without alienating the old stuff) that might be it, if they want to redo the arc of Thrall's landing in Kalimdor but do it without the hyper-hostility of the barrens, and pair it alongside a Cata-type exploration of the elements to try a deeper dive into what their deal is.