Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Joshuaj]

Hmmm I think that people are overhyping Midnight a little too much. Don't get my wrong, it could be an amazing expansion, and it will bring housing, which is big. But at the end of the day it will have the same cadence and patches than DF and TWW. Which is great !! We are living the best moment of WoW in terms of quality and quantity of content.

TWW has been much better than DF both in terms of story and narrative, so I hope that in Midnight they keep improving.

But they might surprise us with a new class, new specs, class skins, new order halls... But Housing seems such a big and important system to implement, and Delves has such potential, that it seems unlikely that we will have more box features in Midnight.

I would prefer that they keep improving existing systems. They already stated that they are going to improve the new player experience (which is vital for the game IMO), the interface, hopefully new customization for races, we have to see what they will do with Hero Talents... I believe that they are in the right track, but anything on top of Housing will be welcome !

I still feel SL was meant to have this roadmap stuff, but internal issues fucked everything over.

[Black Rider]

There is DEFINITELY more work older dungeons. Go and check the number of changes Grim Batol received with new and updated trashes and bosses compared to Necrotic Wake. Claiming otherwise means you never stepped into them.

Also, please don't speak for the playerbase wants/needs. It doesn't work like that.

Well browse reddit/forums and u'll see.
Don't tell me that you are fond of SL dungeons over and over again

[Dracullus]

I still feel SL was meant to have this roadmap stuff, but internal issues fucked everything over.

Nah. Of course, they never intended to screw up patch schedule and wanted something similar to Legion every expac, but current roadmap and almost surgical attention to keeping 8 weeks schedule come from 2021 disaster and pressure from FF14 competition.

[Khaza-R]

Didnt they remake Blackfathom Depths during WoD? I know the last boss was updated at least.

Yup. And RFK and RFD. I could be wrong but I think they even made some changes to RFK a couple of years ago that hinted they could of been testing it for M+

[Makabreska]

Well browse reddit/forums and u'll see.
Don't tell me that you are fond of SL dungeons over and over again

I do browse them regularly, don't really see any hate. In fact, I saw peeps having more issues with SoB and GB. And me and my guildies can't wait for Halls of Atonement.

SL dungeons are here to stay in the M+ rotation, there is no debating that. And next expansion DF dungeons will most likely join them. That is 100 times more probable than ZA or ZG.

[Dracullus]

I do browse them regularly, don't really see any hate. In fact, I saw peeps having more issues with SoB and GB. And me and my guildies can't wait for Halls of Atonement.

SL dungeons are here to stay in the M+ rotation, there is no debating that. And next expansion DF dungeons will most likely join them. That is 100 times more probable than ZA or ZG.

SL is just whipping boy and everything connected to it is presented like worst thing ever or ignored. In reality SL launch was biggest thing since Cata, only later abysmal patch support made all SL issues not resolved for year, if TWW or Legion were left alone they would be hated too.

[Khaza-R]

SL is just whipping boy and everything connected to it is presented like worst thing ever or ignored. In reality SL launch was biggest thing since Cata, only later abysmal patch support made all SL issues not resolved for year, if TWW or Legion were left alone they would be hated too.

Eh, that seems a bit disingenious.

SL had a remarkable launch because of the pandemic and a bunch of people who quit the game came back in 2020. Even if SL had better candence then what? You still would of gotten Korthia and shard of domination garbage. Literally one of the worst design choices ever added to this game. Lets not pretend that SL was bad because arguably its best tier was too long

[SunspotAnims]

...Dragonflight's mega zones and Dragonriding putting the final nail in the coffin of old landscape design, and TWW's rather outlandish underground theme and (thus far) completely wonky post-launch content (20th anniversary, island expedition redux Siren Isle and jazzy Undermine).

You're really trying to paint these at bad things? Big continents? Unique settings? New ways to play the game?

[Cheezits]

Legion had the most content, the best content, and the best cadence by far. It's not even close.

Only if you completely ignore the Broken Shore and Tomb of Soakgeras. The Mage Tower and class mounts were cool but not enough to warrant the patch being pretty mid-to-bad IMO.

Mists was better.

[Makabreska]

Big zones/continents are great.

Big zones/continents designed around flying aren't as great as they could be.

The Azure Span is, from a technical point of view one of the most beautiful zones they've ever created. But the way you experience it is basically: 1. Enter, 2. Do some stuff by a mage tower, 3. Flap around following Kalegcos for a bit, 4. Swoop over to the Tuskar, 5. Begin Point of Interest-hopping once world content endgame begins.

Compare that to ascending Kun-Lai or Highmountain, or trekking through Grizzly Hills, and it's not even close.

Back in Legion we didn't have Classic, Classic SoD, Remix and Plunderstorm. Saying that Legion time was better in terms of content is just wrong.

Also, this is yet another example of how easily bad experiences can be forgotten, with Legion legendaires roulette and never ending grind of borrowed powers, with each patch adding more and more.

[Dracullus]

Eh, that seems a bit disingenious.

SL had a remarkable launch because of the pandemic and a bunch of people who quit the game came back in 2020. Even if SL had better candence then what? You still would of gotten Korthia and shard of domination garbage. Literally one of the worst design choices ever added to this game. Lets not pretend that SL was bad because arguably its best tier was too long

So "bunch of people who quit" came back in 2020, but somehow you think it doesn't apply to other expacs (otherwise I don't understand why you use it as argument). And of course work from home helped to leap beyond BfA and Legion numbers, but it simply wouldn't be case if people hated theme or 9.0 content. MoP or DF release show that interest is lower when people think theme is boring.

And yes, I think 9.1 would be passable if it wouldnt be first patch after 7 months. Shards were just another weak borrowed power thing and Korthia small zone with casual gear and rares - just like Forbidden Reach or Siren Isle, but it looked like Maw we just played for 7 months and was relevant for ANOTHER 8 months. Hardly "worst design choices ever added", that award belong to 7.0 with rng legos and separate grind for every spec.

Don't want to paint SL as something great, I just pointed that people treat like shit everything connected to SL, while it had a lot of good stuff burried under overcomplicated systems, constant drought and you-know-what scandal. Especially if we talk about content, WoW had often problems with character progression, story or patch schedule, but never with content itself.

[Khaza-R]

So "bunch of people who quit" came back in 2020, but somehow you think it doesn't apply to other expacs (otherwise I don't understand why you use it as argument). And of course work from home helped to leap beyond BfA and Legion numbers, but it simply wouldn't be case if people hated theme or 9.0 content. MoP or DF release show that interest is lower when people think theme is boring.

And yes, I think 9.1 would be passable if it wouldnt be first patch after 7 months. Shards were just another weak borrowed power thing and Korthia small zone with casual gear and rares - just like Forbidden Reach or Siren Isle, but it looked like Maw we just played for 7 months and was relevant for ANOTHER 8 months. Hardly "worst design choices ever added", that award belong to 7.0 with rng legos and separate grind for every spec.

Don't want to paint SL as something great, I just pointed that people treat like shit everything connected to SL, while it had a lot of good stuff burried under overcomplicated systems, constant drought and you-know-what scandal. Especially if we talk about content, WoW had often problems with character progression, story or patch schedule, but never with content itself.

There's no conjecture on my part. You can look at the leak graft and see a massive spike in subs in mid 2020, despite there being nothing new released in that time period. So yes, the pandemic brought a lot of people. I don't disagree with you about the theme being more popular but that was also rather bait and switch. Especially how the Lich King and Sylvanas arcs ended.

I guess I misunderstood your post because I don't disagree with you at all. Shadowlands is a deeply, deeply flawed expansion and quite honestly was a low point in the game's history. But I agree not every aspect of it is terrible. I very much loved Nathria, Tazavesh and most of the M+ dungeons. There's a common response on this forum however that every recent expansion is unjustly hated but later looked back on favorably. Thankfully TWW I think puts that garbage to rest.

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Since they apparently have a whole team now dedicated to housing, I really hoping they maybe add teams for other areas. Like a specific team who only works on adding player character customizations would be great.

[Hitei]

Big zones/continents are great.

Big zones/continents designed around flying aren't as great as they could be.

The Azure Span is, from a technical point of view one of the most beautiful zones they've ever created. But the way you experience it is basically: 1. Enter, 2. Do some stuff by a mage tower, 3. Flap around following Kalegcos for a bit, 4. Swoop over to the Tuskar, 5. Begin Point of Interest-hopping once world content endgame begins.

Compare that to ascending Kun-Lai or Highmountain, or trekking through Grizzly Hills, and it's not even close.

"Not even close" in the sense that Kun-Lai is a boring, forgettable zone and the only real notable thing about Grizzly Hills was a music track, right?

[Darkarath]

Dude, things are all right and looking promising, but come on.

Legion had the most content, the best content, and the best cadence by far. It's not even close.

It is the best expansion overall, I agree. Legion had 3 big patches, though. If DF would have received patches up to 10.3.7, it would have been the expansion with most content. Also the quality and quantity of the content is better, no question. In Legion, getting in a not numbered patch something like Siren Isle was unthinkable. But we players tend to forget soon and we always look back with nostalgia.

It was also one of the last expansions that felt like old-school WoW, before everything got so strange with Shadowlands' destruction of old lore, Dragonflight's mega zones and Dragonriding putting the final nail in the coffin of old landscape design, and TWW's rather outlandish underground theme and (thus far) completely wonky post-launch content (20th anniversary, island expedition redux Siren Isle and jazzy Undermine).

I really hope Metzen is able to bring the thunder with Midnight. Look, I hate sounding like some troglodyte but WoW needs its testosterone back (for lack of a better word). Its oomph.

Hard disagree on the effects of Dragonriding regarding the world. It has obviously changed world design but for the better, and IMO we can never go back to a world without Dragonriding. The Dragon Isles and Khaz Algar are amazing continents. I was very reluctant about underground zones, especially after Zaralek Caverns, but they have done an outstanding work.

While I agree with the destruction of the lore made by Shadowlands, I think that the main issue with DF was how badly the story was told, and the more than probable changes that the story suffered. I certainly do not need more "macho" moments, but I agree that it has been a while since we got a typical cool and cheesy WoW event, like Sargeras stabbing Azeroth.

TWW is doing a good job for now, but Blizzard has made so many poor decisions lore-wise that I find hard to believe that TWW's good start will keep going. Nevertheless, I remain hopeful.

[Jaggler]

Legion also profited from WoD being abandoned after one patch and that content going into Legion. That is just not feasable otherwise. It's not like Blizzard managed to magic out some new content. It was the result of one of the (if not the) worst content drought in the game.

Legion launched with basically most of it 7.1 content already finished.

I would say Dragonriding was a huge boon for landscape design, not a "nail in the coffin".
The Dragon Isles are one of the most beautiful places in the game.
"Old School" WoW Landscapes were very... flat. You had a few, geographically nonsensical mountain ranges to seperate zones.
You do you, if you enjoy that kind of thing, but thinking that old wow zone designs were somehow better is a wild take.

[Lady Atia]

That's not how they were perceived at the time, lol. You're looking at it from the POV of somebody who's seen those places a million times already, and these days have access to a bunch of new innovations that weren't in the game back then.

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This is one of those issues I'm fine with having a polite disagreement over, and it's not a hill I'd die on or anything.

I really like both the Dragon Isles and Khaz Algar. I just think something was lost in terms of how you experience that horizon.

It was an incredible feeling to gradually ascend Kun-Lai Summit from the valleys below until you eventually climbed Mt Neverest in the snowstorm.

When you went though Highmountain the first time, it was truly epic to explore that little valley with all the rivers around the tauren city before you eventually descended into caves and made your way to the coast on the other side.

You just don't get those moments with the new direction. You can go anywhere immediately, and your POV is completely different.

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The Dragon Isles are indeed beautiful (which, tbh should be expected since they are the newest "natural"/above ground zones in the game. Blizzard tools are better and hopefully design principles improve with time.

But they could be even better imo. If the Azure Span was a place I initially had to make my way through on horseback or on foot, Blizzard would have had to put a little bit more love into creating different vistas that leave you in awe.

Progressing from, say, a little boat you arrive with down by the water, welcomed by the Tuskarr, through inclining hills that are covered in trees, before you reach snowy peaks and frozen citadels of the blue flight.

Now it was just like... okay we'll dump you wherever on the map and let you go wherever, because you're able to anyway. The flow was really odd IMO.

You also lose so much of the subtle things. Imagine if the hobbits just flew around Middle-Earth on giant eagles all the time, occasionally landing to fight with Shelob or encounter Gollum. How exciting would that be?

You last point, isn't that the problem of any "open world rpg's" of the last years? Think the newest Pokemon game or Diablo IV. A linear story thread that leads you linear through a world will always feel better than "here are 3 main quest lines you can do in any order lul".

[Hitei]

That's not how they were perceived at the time, lol. You're looking at it from the POV of somebody who's seen those places a million times already, and these days have access to a bunch of new innovations that weren't in the game back then.

No, even at the time I found Kun-Lai supremely underwhelming, brown blandness on a continent with much nicer and more immersive zones (that also had much more interesting storylines and questing). It was sort of just a much worse version of Townlong, which is already a pretty low tier zone compared to Jade Forest, Valley/Krasarang and Vale. Grizzly Hills (outside of the nyckelharpa) was pretty meh compared to Dragonblight, Storm Peaks, Icecrown and Zul'drak. I'd say the only thing keeping it even mid for Wrath was that half of Northrend's zones (Sholazar, Howling Fjord, Borean outside of Coldarra) were just real awful.

[Nymrohd]

Damn, I really enjoyed Kun Lai. From the Grummles, to Lei Shen being resurrected, the beach village attacked by the Zandalari and then the Shado pan, all was solidly told.

[Hitei]

Damn, I really enjoyed Kun Lai. From the Grummles, to Lei Shen being resurrected, the beach village attacked by the Zandalari and then the Shado pan, all was solidly told.

Townlong literally did Shado-Pan better though.

[Darkarath]

This is one of those issues I'm fine with having a polite disagreement over, and it's not a hill I'd die on or anything.

I really like both the Dragon Isles and Khaz Algar. I just think something was lost in terms of how you experience that horizon.

It was an incredible feeling to gradually ascend Kun-Lai Summit from the valleys below until you eventually climbed Mt Neverest in the snowstorm.

When you went though Highmountain the first time, it was truly epic to explore that little valley with all the rivers around the tauren city before you eventually descended into caves and made your way to the coast on the other side.

You just don't get those moments with the new direction. You can go anywhere immediately, and your POV is completely different.

I understand. Is just a matter of taste.

For example, while I think that MoP was a very good expansion, the zones and questing experience was pretty meh for me, with the exception of anything Mantid-related. I did not get that feel of gradually ascending at all. But I definitively got the feeling of going deeper and deeper with TWW. Entering Hallowfall with my flying mount the first time was one of the highlights of WoW ever. And I have a shitty PC. It has to be truly amazing with decent graphics.

But again, this is highly subjective. Music helps too. TWW's music has been an all-time high IMO. Especially the Isle of Dorn theme. I love that song and I usually do not pay much attention to music.