Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[KOUNTERPARTS]

WoW still struggles with optimization, both its design and it's usage on PC. I'd hope they take a massive undertaking to correct this before even considering console releases.

I wonder if people just want to be able to play WoW with a controller. If so... you can already do that.

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... the world revamp that is currently spread out across the roadmap for the next two expansions?

Going back "to the old world" or however Metzen said it, being Quel'Thalas and Northrend, is not an announcement of revamping the entire world. It's probably closer to updating zones like they did in Cataclysm but with modern day Blizzard tech/expertise compared to 2010.

[Ersula]

snip

Are you familiar with the game? Half the things you listed aren't even shared plotpoints, even when you make them super vague.

How do you imagine the ton's of abilities that classes have can be played on controller

The same way FFXIV does it; the 8 buttons represent a different hotbar when each of the shoulder buttons are held. That's 4x8+4 buttons.

[Cheezits]

Going back "to the old world" or however Metzen said it, being Quel'Thalas and Northrend, is not an announcement of revamping the entire world. It's probably closer to updating zones like they did in Cataclysm but with modern day Blizzard tech/expertise compared to 2010.

There's nothing confirming it, but the fact that they are making two new areas in Kalimdor and EK may point to a revamp extending beyond just QT in Midnight. We don't know if the neighborhoods are instanced and it's unlikely they would just be slapped onto the old map without any changes if they aren't.

Additionally, there are the updated human structure models that have been in the files forever (houses, barns, towers) but haven't been implemented nor seem to be relevant in TWW, Midnight or TLT. So they may use the new neighborhoods as an excuse to do HD versions of the capital cities and their surroundings.

To address the X expansion is like Y expansion: Dragonflight carries on the Cata aspect story, but the entire Dragon Isles are based off Northrend zones. Dragonblight is retroactively a mini Dragon Isles. So bullet points like that don't work.

[Joshuaj]

Let's see, am I describing Cataclysm or Dragonflight/TWW with the following features?

- Dragons and Dragon Aspects
- Black dragons meddling with the Void
- A dangerous artifact from the past, forged by goblins
- The elements in focus, as well as the Elementals
- Old God Cultists trying to bring about the end of the world
- A Harbinger serving the Old Gods' cause in bringing about the end of the world
- A new Dwarven zone with a focus on "new" dwarves being attacked by Old God minions and cultists
- A new underground zone, near the core of the world
- A new underwater zone, featuring Queen Azshara's naga
- A new zone featuring aworld tree, as well as the Wild Gods as the fire elementals and Druid of the Flame invade
- A new zone set in the deserts of southern Kalimdor
- Mount Kajaro and the home of the goblins
- Exploring ancient Titan dungeons with Brann
- Fighting to reclaim Gilneas
- Aiding the bronze dragonflight in the timeways
- A great storm out at sea
- The world being "reawoken" (revamped)

Similarly, am I describing Wrath of the Lich King or BfA/Shadowlands below?

- Uther, Sylvanas, Jaina, Bolvar Fordragon, and Arthas are part of the main cast.
- An attack on the capital city of Lordaeron.
- Journey into the land of the dead.
- Souls are being harvested and used in horrific ways.
- Deal with a story about old wounds, revenge, and justice. Letting go of the past, and facing your inner demons.
- Wicked new tribe of trolls taking a big spotlight, their culture largely centered around death.
- A lord of the damned is our main antagonist.
- Defeat an Old God lurking in the background.
- There is an Old God inside a Titan facility and we have to defeat some corrupted Titan-forged.
- A fallen world tree, planted by Fandral Staghelm.

Solving this is much easier than you think it is. But sure, I'll play along. For the first one:

- Probably DF, since DF was the Dragon expansion. Cata did feature Dragons and the Aspects, but they weren't the only focus in the expansion's theme.
- Gonna assume Cata, since outside of Sarkareth's troops, the Dragons haven't really dabbled in Void energies during DF.
- THIS can be applied to multiple expansions, considering what's implied with the Dark Heart, as well as what's confirmed with the Dragon Soul. This is fine.
- Cataclysm
- Cataclysm again (TWW has the Black Blood, but outside of that, there's really no Old God presence this expac, and I love that)
- Cataclysm, cause Deathwing was a harbinger that served the Old Gods. Xal'atath serves the Void Lords. Different ballparks entirely.
- Cataclysm. Earthen aren't really "Dwarves", and the Wildhammer Dwarves were getting attacked by the Twilight's Hammer.
- TWW, as Deepholm in Cata is an entirely separate elemental plane. TWW actually has us going near Azeroth's core.
- Cataclysm
- This applies to multiple expansions admittedly (Since both Cata and DF have a new world tree, and both had Fire elementals and the Druids of the Flame invading)
- Cataclysm (Undermine doesn't showcase Mount Kajaro)
- TWW (Can't say I remember seeing Brann much in Cataclysm, let alone DF)
- Dragonflight (It's the only time where the Gilneans actually fought to reclaim their home, as they lost it in Cata).
- Dragonflight
- Gonna assume TWW, since it talks about The Storming Seas. Not sure if there are other example's I'm forgetting however. Maelstrom doesn't count.
- Cataclysm (DF and TWW had no revamps).

Now, for the second one:

- Shadowlands (Uther and Bolvar aren't MCs in Wrath)
- BFA
- Shadowlands
- Would say this applies to a lot of expansions, not just the 3 mentioned above. However, for convenience sake, I'll say Shadowlands.
- lol again, applies to a lot of expansions, not just the 3 above. However, I'll still say Shadowlands for convenience sake.
- Wrath. Zul'Drak. The Zandalari aren't really a "tribe" in comparison, nor do they interact with Death's magics much outside of Rastakhan's Bwonsamdi deal.
- Wrath. The Lich King is the King of the Damned. The Jailer is far beyond that.
- Again, multiple expansions past these 3, but I'll say BFA due to N'Zoth having a much greater background presence.
- Wrath. We don't fight corrupted Titanforged at N'Zoth's prison.
- BFA. It's the only expac of the 3 that deals with Teldrassil directly.

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Now, shall we keep going? Or are we done with the whacky comparisons?

[KOUNTERPARTS]

I find it legitimately hilarious that anybody would be unable to see the very clear parallels between Cataclysm and DF/TWW.

You weren't describing parallels; you were listing off points to somehow prove they were the same.

[Makabreska]

Going back "to the old world" or however Metzen said it, being Quel'Thalas and Northrend, is not an announcement of revamping the entire world. It's probably closer to updating zones like they did in Cataclysm but with modern day Blizzard tech/expertise compared to 2010.

Cata-style revamp would not be good enough, even with better tech. Give us WoD lvl of changes or bust!

[milkmustache]

The question is: how do they not prove that?

In other words, why would anybody arrive at the conclusion that they're not the same, when everything about them suggests they are?

I think in these parallels you're trying to draw you're taking parts and calling it the sum, but leaving out a lot of other parts. While there are a lot of similar story beats, there are a lot of very different story beats. Cataclysm is entirely about war and destruction, whereas DF was supposed to be about homecoming and renewal, peace after tragedy. TWW is building up into a larger war, but its' themes are far more subdued to a hidden battle.

At that rate you could say Wrath and TWW are the same. Earthen, Nerubians, a Windrunner sister and the Titans. Old Gods interfering, new continent, etc. etc.

Expansions will naturally have similar story beats, but that doesn't make them parallels.

[Makabreska]

The question is: how do they not prove that?

In other words, why would anybody arrive at the conclusion that they're not the same, when everything about them suggests they are?

Even if they are, so what? Will we go now into some weird "X happened in Cata, so it will happen in TWW as well!" territory?

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At that rate you could say Wrath and TWW are the same. Earthen, Nerubians, a Windrunner sister and the Titans. Old Gods interfering, new continent, etc. etc.

Expansions will naturally have similar story beats, but that doesn't make them parallels.

And pretty much this.

[Hitei]

Now, shall we keep going? Or are we done with the whacky comparisons?

You weren't describing parallels; you were listing off points to somehow prove they were the same.

He's been attempting to force this non-existent pattern for like two and a half years now, so I doubt it's gonna be done anytime soon. A year and a half ago he was saying it was super totally obvious that Dragonflight was the setup for 11.0 being a sequel elemental revamp expansion.

The question is: how do they not prove that?

In other words, why would anybody arrive at the conclusion that they're not the same, when everything about them suggests they are?

Anything is "the same" when you just name arbitrary similarities or even force awkward comparisons that don't actually line up well.



Woah, look at that:

An expansion that takes place on an Old God blood infested continent, swarming with Nerubians (split into majority bad ones and a small good group trying to reclaim the kingdom)? With a minor overzealous human order of the Light following a prophecy that told them their destiny was to sail there? With a minion of the Void corrupting earthen to its cause in subverting a titan installation? and a population of troll natives who don't like outsiders trying themselves to fight off enemies? What's this, a bunch of titan machinery for manipulating the planet that we need to help retake from those corrupted titanforged, and automated titan systems that are failing? Brann leading the charge in exploration? An group of good order of light worshipping humans on our side? You say Dalaran is moving to the new place and is our entry point to the region? The Alliance and Horde show up to fight the same enemy but are being held back by bickering? There's a hidden, lush green space tied to the events of the Titan's ordering? You say there's a very minor, mysterious threat attacking from the ocean's depths? That earlier void minion disguises itself as someone friendly and trying to assist us in our fight but tricks us into putting allies in danger? The local, traditionally lightning-infused titanforged feel abandoned by the Titans and embrace their freedom?


How can anyone not see that Wrath of the Lich King and TWW are the same story!?

[milkmustache]

Our release date is finally here. Undermine(d) launches Feb 25th with S2 starting March 4th.

[Lady Atia]

Our release date is finally here. Undermine(d) launches Feb 25th with S2 starting March 4th.

Which is literally 0 surprise, the date was basically set for months already, thanks to Plunderstorm and the Timeways event. Only wowhead was dumb (or click greedy) enough to think it would come a week earlier lol.

[milkmustache]

-snip-

I still think you're over generalizing here and looking to fit a pattern. I'm not necessarily trying to say "YOU'RE WRONG!! >" about this, as I think it's just symptomatic of the expectations given from the Shadowlands/DF cosmological approach where there is a power and everything within that power is true to that power's ambitions and never mixes with another power. Just patterns within patterns, Zereth Mortis cursing us again (lol).

My point being, there's more to these things than just mad libbing plot beats and calling them similar. They retread locations, factions, and plot beats a lot as this is a rather cyclical path we've been on in the past 20 years.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

Funny, but you forget this part:

- TBC/WoD/Legion are about the Burning Crusade/Sargeras.
- WotLK/BfA/Shadowlands are about the Lich King/the Jailer.
- Cata/DF/TWW are about the Hour of Twilight.

There is a pretty big difference between what an expansion itself is about, and what it leads to.
After an expansion passes and the story progresses to a point where new information comes out to further add context/elaboration to a previous expansion's events (ie: revelation of Sylvanas' deal with The Failure Jailer and why she wanted war during Battle for Azeroth) still doesn't retroactively make an expansion "about" something. BfA was not about the Lich King nor The Failure Jailer.

Same goes with WoD and DF. I don't see how you can pretend to be serious about clumping them into this.

[Khaza-R]

I respectfully disagree here, because WoW is mainly a game about fighting back against evil forces.

While each expansion does its own thing and tries to tell a messege (for example MoP with its "what's worth fighting for?"), thare are also overarching wars against X cosmic force.

The Burning Crusade, WoD and Legion are ultimately about defeating the Burning Legion and ending Sargeras' crusade. They're all sprinkled with fel magic, Outland/Draenor, Demon Hunters, etc.

Wrath of the Lich King, BfA and Shadowlands are ultimately about stopping the Lich King (and ultimately the Super Lich King) from allowing the forces of Death to wash over the world and claiming all souls for themselves. These are all steeped in death-themes and see recurring characters like Sylvanas, Arthas, Jaina, Uther, etc.

Cataclysm, DF and TWW are ultimately about preventing the Hour of Twilight, by stopping the Harbinger of the Void from unleashing the Shadow and summoning in the Void Lords to consume Azeroth. These expansions (more so than others) involve the elementals, cultists, dragons, and world trees.

I normally can appreciate your creativity but you're being so disingeniune with these takes its bordering on bad faith posting.

Calling BfA an expansion about the Jailer when 3/4 raids were Old Gods or Old God servants is wild. And even if we were all to follow your logic then guess what? Legion too would have to be about the Jailer. Since you know he corrupted Argus's worldsoul and used the whole events of that expansion in 7d chess move to gank the Arbiter and feed all the souls to himself.

[milkmustache]

They do. I'm not suggesting these expansions are exclusively mimicking older ones, beat for beat.

But do you disagree with these statements?

-snip-

Is this not a story in three parts in your view?

I don't disagree that there's certain stories being played out, but to be fair, you picked the only one of those three that is a full story. I don't think that this logic applies to Wrath/BFA/Shadowlands and Cata/DF/TWW.

Here's the way I see it:


FEL - The Burning Legion - developed and often featured, until dealt with at the end of Legion. Now, hardly anywhere to be found except breadcrumbs here and there.

DEATH - The Lich King/Jailer - developed and often featured, until dealt with at the end of Shadowlands. Now, hardly anywhere to be found except breadcrumbs here and there.

SHADOW - The Old Gods/Void - developed and often featured, until dealt with at the end of Midnight (was originally going to be TWW).

But this is my exact point. The priority of the cosmological order in recent lore makes people drawn definitive conclusions and look for patterns in the storytelling, making things far more formulaic than they've ever been. The whole 4 zones, 8 dungeons, new system formula is a meta bit, but it works for pacing in the general development of the game, but if Blizzard were to make expansion stories based off of this idea that "Well, we hit these beats in Wrath, so we have to hit them here to make them a family" (and I'm arguing they don't), it would be nonsensical.

[Cheezits]

I realllllly doubt we will drop the Void plotline entirely in Midnight when we only know one Void Lord and Azshara will likely be using it in a later saga.

However it will be the "Void Legion" big showdown expansion, down to us having some playable form of the bad guys (Demon Hunters being demons, Void class and/or Ethereals).

[KOUNTERPARTS]

BfA was entirely about the Jailer, on a meta level.

Sylvanas was his ally throughout the entire thing, and the entire 4th War was just a way to harvest as many souls as possible for the Jailer, before she eventually revealed her true allegiances and popped off. Her newfound powers were teased throughout with the shadowy cloud-swirlies.

You are purposely missing the point. It's completely dishonest to hand wave everything about BfA and what the story was in BfA, because in the very next expansion we found out character A told character B to accomplish a task.

The Jailer needed souls. Sylvanas caused a war to get souls. Everything that we did on Zandalar and Kul Tiras, leading to Nazjatar and then Ny'alotha, was not about the Jailer.

Because on a "meta level" then entire World of Warcraft story, from TBC to even Dragonflight, is about the Jailer. Is that where you are trying to tread?

The expansion itself reeked of death wherever we went. Kul Tiras was basically all about Jaina dealing with the deaths of people she loved, from Arthas, to her father, and her brother. Drustvar is a literal drust coven, with dead villagers hanging from every tree.

Kul Tiras was not basically all about Jaina dealing with death. Are you serious? Dealing with the Drust was just a portion of dealing with Kul Tiras' woes. So you're going to just dishonestly gloss over the issues with Ashvane's duplicity and its role in keeping Kul Tiras divided, as well as Azshara and N'Zoth's influence over the Tidesages and eventually going to Nazjatar?

You say "reeked" as an obvious exaggeration; how do you then pretend that it was as overt as your exaggeration implies?

Similarly, Zandalar was a big foray into the Zandalari trolls and their death-based religion. Zul. Spirits. Bwonsamdi. Da other side. The necropolis of Nazmir.

We must have played different expansions. While dealing with Bwonsamdi was not only a portion of the Horde questing experience, but also his dealings with Rastakhan and Talan'ji, the themes of death were not the entirety of our time on Zandalar.

You seem to forget of our dealings with the troll's loa pantheon as a whole. How can you say it is a "death-based" religion?

It was not even half of the experience. Very disingenuous of you to claim otherwise.

[Black Rider]

11.1 releases on 25th of Feb
https://x.com/Warcraft/status/1889373843724124619

[KOUNTERPARTS]

I realllllly doubt we will drop the Void plotline entirely in Midnight when we only know one Void Lord and Azshara will likely be using it in a later saga.

However it will be the "Void Legion" big showdown expansion, down to us having some playable form of the bad guys (Demon Hunters being demons, Void class and/or Ethereals).

This theory goes out the window if Azshara appears in Midnight.

[milkmustache]

-snip-

Idk. I don't think this is something I can really keep repeating myself on. I understand your point, I think that some things you're saying are true, but I still think that you're over generalizing and trying to make patterns where they're not necessary.

I think you're using the one subjective trilogy (BC > WOD > Legion) to rationalize storytelling across the whole game, and I don't think there's enough there to support a pattern. Especially with the Chilton quote-- I think that's 50% truth, meaning they have a bunch of destinations or places they want to visit in game rather than an overarching story, and 50% marketing speak.

I admire your theorycrafting and looking for something that's there, but I personally think this one is missing the mark and isn't a good measurement for storylines. I truly think that aside from WoD > Legion, The Worldsoul Saga is the first time that Blizzard is doing a story across multiple expansions; everything else has just been "What could be cool after this?".