Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Nymrohd]

What exactly makes you think he didn't like SL? Like what specifically do you think he'd have a problem with?

The fact that it failed at being epic and failed at fan service.

[Khaza-R]

What exactly makes you think he didn't like SL? Like what specifically do you think he'd have a problem with?

Indeed he's rule of cool. But he still plays in his own universe. Shadowlands was not that at all. Draenei as ridiculous as they were still existed as Eredar and Broken before hand. Shadowlands isn't recontextualized lore its a complete asspull with some pseudo-intellectual bullshit added in. Neither are really hallmarks of Metzen

But here's the whole thing with this. I don't need to really prove anything. You are the one's saying Kotick is liar. The burden of proof if one you to counter his claim.

[Joshuaj]

The fact that it failed at being epic and failed at fan service.

It was great world building wise, and I think the First Ones are something he'd totally do. However, it did fumble narratively, but a big problem with that had to do with the walk outs, past Devs being creepy, and Kotick being a terrible person.

Had nothing to do with the company wasting their efforts or just being ass in general, with Kotick "warning them" about shit and whatnot.

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Indeed he's rule of cool. But he still plays in his own universe. Shadowlands was not that at all. Draenei as ridiculous as they were still existed as Eredar and Broken before hand. Shadowlands isn't recontextualized lore its a complete asspull with some pseudo-intellectual bullshit added in. Neither are really hallmarks of Metzen

But here's the whole thing with this. I don't need to really prove anything. You are the one's saying Kotick is liar. The burden of proof if one you to counter his claim.

Blizzard intended for the players to explore the Shadowlands at some point, but you're right in that the Shadowlands as they are weren't really planned in Wrath and whatnot. However, guys like Kosak clearly explained that, after 20 years, you'd have to go bigger regarding the setting, and he acknowledges that the devs expanded things beyond the spirit realm with the Shadowlands expansion, which is natural, as things like the Cosmic Chart were made to serve as potential expansion ideas as well.

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Metzen isn't against the idea of us exploring the cosmos. The idea of the cosmos having unique domains for each force is cool, and it leads to a lot of unique story potential, like us going into the Life domain and seeing Elune's potential celestial realm, to us potentially seeing a lot of Lovecraftian things with the Void realm, etc. If he was against that stuff, 10.2 wouldn't have hinted at a Life realm and the Pantheon of Life.

However, he knows SL wasn't built up, and he knows it was handled like shit. That's why things like the Worldsoul Saga exist.

[Khaza-R]

Metzen isn't against the idea of us exploring the cosmos. The idea of the cosmos having unique domains for each force is cool, and it leads to a lot of unique story potential, like us going into the Life domain and seeing Elune's potential celestial realm, to us potentially seeing a lot of Lovecraftian things with the Void realm, etc. If he was against that stuff, 10.2 wouldn't have hinted at a Life realm and the Pantheon of Life.

However, he knows SL wasn't built up, and he knows it was handled like shit. That's why things like the Worldsoul Saga exist.

I don't disagree at all. I think Metzen intends to explore the cosmos more but SL simply was not his way of doing it.

For reference this man is a huge fan of Stormcast Eternals in Age of Sigmar. For those that don't follow Warhmmer, its a very controversial reimagining of the setting that blew up the world to remake a universe where everything is centered around the 8 winds of magic. I don't necessarily think Metzen will destory Azeroth by the end of the WSS but I do think we will the 6 realms of cosmic forces be a bigger deal. I also do see him redoing Shadowlands in his own ideas.

[Dracullus]

Why are they revealing Midnight at gamescom if there's gonna be a blizzcon?

What's alternative? "Revealing" Midnight after game is in Alpha or even Beta?

Indeed he's rule of cool. But he still plays in his own universe. Shadowlands was not that at all. Draenei as ridiculous as they were still existed as Eredar and Broken before hand. Shadowlands isn't recontextualized lore its a complete asspull with some pseudo-intellectual bullshit added in.

Yeah, if SL was a thing under Metzen we would see a lot of fan service and Arthas would definitely show up as true character. Afrasabi and later Danuser somehow both jumped shark with showing actual afterlife but were too timid with using old characters to grab people attention.

Instead we got a lot of new faces and SL politics. It could be as well completely new alien planet that sucks souls of Azeroth people, story would be pretty much the same but without making Dragon Ball from Warcraft where afterlife is just a place you visit from time to time.

[Joshuaj]

I don't disagree at all. I think Metzen intends to explore the cosmos more but SL simply was not his way of doing it.

For reference this man is a huge fan of Stormcast Eternals in Age of Sigmar. For those that don't follow Warhmmer, its a very controversial reimagining of the setting that blew up the world to remake a universe where everything is centered around the 8 winds of magic. I don't necessarily think Metzen will destory Azeroth by the end of the WSS but I do think we will the 6 realms of cosmic forces be a bigger deal. I also do see him redoing Shadowlands in his own ideas.

I don't see him redoing SL at all. If anything, I think he'll just better build up the Cosmic Realms and potentially explore the Progenitor stuff in a more mysterious way. So like, instead of going to another Zereth in the coming years, we'll likely just learn more about the Progenitors goals for the design and what Azeroth's purpose is.

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What's alternative? "Revealing" Midnight after game is in Alpha or even Beta?



Yeah, if SL was a thing under Metzen we would see a lot of fan service and Arthas would definitely show up as true character. Afrasabi and later Danuser somehow both jumped shark with showing actual afterlife but were too timid with using old characters to grab people attention.

Instead we got a lot of new faces and SL politics. It could be as well completely new alien planet that sucks souls of Azeroth people, story would be pretty much the same but without making Dragon Ball from Warcraft where afterlife is just a place you visit from time to time.

"We would see Arthas as a true character"

At best, you'd be seeing that fucker get tortured in the Maw. That, or he appears more than through Anduin than just at the Sepulcher.

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"Instead we got a lot of new faces and SL politics. It could be as well completely new alien planet that sucks souls of Azeroth people,"

It's the afterlife. Of course we're gonna meet new people. What, did you expect us to only meet familiar faces in the domain of Death? The Shadowlands ain't Azeroth-exclusive. The veils we see are connected to Azeroth, sure, and it's unknown if other worlds have them, or just ordered worlds (which Kosak implied in his Pyromancer interview, but things change from their initial design, which is the case for a lot of Chronicle, like how Kosak wanted the Titans to represent "Creation" via them "creating worlds" or him saying Azeroth is a "titan" which might change based off TWS Saga and its stuff, etc), but the Shadowlands itself ain't.

[Nymrohd]

Yeah, if SL was a thing under Metzen we would see a lot of fan service and Arthas would definitely show up as true character. Afrasabi and later Danuser somehow both jumped shark with showing actual afterlife but were too timid with using old characters to grab people attention.

Instead we got a lot of new faces and SL politics. It could be as well completely new alien planet that sucks souls of Azeroth people, story would be pretty much the same but without making Dragon Ball from Warcraft where afterlife is just a place you visit from time to time.

For a moment when the SL reveal was happening and they talked about soulbinds, I immediately assumed this would be fanservice central and we would get famous heroes from Lore to soulbind to. Then the reveal kept on and we saw the actual soulbinds and it just felt like a wasted opportunity. Why not make e.g. Mograine & Draka the Necrolord Soulbinds? In a story all about Sylvanas, why not use Lirath? They brought Baine with us, why not show Cairne? Legion was the fan service expansion and that was a huge part of its appeal; even if a lot of the writing was mediocre the fan service element kind of saved it.

[Hitei]

Indeed he's rule of cool. But he still plays in his own universe. Shadowlands was not that at all. Draenei as ridiculous as they were still existed as Eredar and Broken before hand. Shadowlands isn't recontextualized lore its a complete asspull with some pseudo-intellectual bullshit added in. Neither are really hallmarks of Metzen

But here's the whole thing with this. I don't need to really prove anything. You are the one's saying Kotick is liar. The burden of proof if one you to counter his claim.

What part of the universe up until BC's launch involved Star Trek style warp core powered spaceships? Spaceships with literal cryostasis sleep pods and parts leaking radiation? What exactly in SL are you claiming is somehow not playing in the warcraft universe while you are happily excuse the bullshit of BC?

Thrall literally starts going by goel and you're gonna argue Metzen isn't into pseudo-intellectual bullshit? The guy who, presiding as company head of story development, oversaw "actually, Illidan was the good guy the whole time, and really you were the bad guy for being so quick to judge and not considering other perspectives" and who re-wrote the entire lore every game instance between WC1 and Wrath draws the line at... the dreadlords with infamously questionable loyalty serving a second master this whole time?

The burden of proof isn't on me. The burden of proof is on Kotick, who is the one who made the contentious claim with no evidence beyond "trust me, I'm Bobby Kotick."

If Metzen hated SL, why was he actively involved in it as Thrall? It was not a major story-crucial role. If he hadn't been interested in doing it, he could have simply said so and they would have had Thrall be one of the leaders who fought off the mawsworn and stayed on Azeroth. If he hated SL's storylines why has he, as currently active lead of the storyline, been happily giving time in the spotlight to things like Anduin's continuing storyline from it. Who do you think decided to forgo a flashy battle trailer and instead focus a trailer on Anduin's introspection?


People have such a weird parasocial relationship with Metzen. They are convinced that he must be "their guy" and agree with all their takes on the game.

Yeah, if SL was a thing under Metzen we would see a lot of fan service and Arthas would definitely show up as true character.

I don't know why you'd assume that when he completely threw Illidan, Kael and Vashj under the bus in BC and Arthas and Deathwing were both reduced to showing up to go "muahaha, I'm evil!" in their expansions, sans literally 20 seconds in the final cutscene of ICC.

[Dracullus]

For a moment when the SL reveal was happening and they talked about soulbinds, I immediately assumed this would be fanservice central and we would get famous heroes from Lore to soulbind to. Then the reveal kept on and we saw the actual soulbinds and it just felt like a wasted opportunity. Why not make e.g. Mograine & Draka the Necrolord Soulbinds? In a story all about Sylvanas, why not use Lirath? They brought Baine with us, why not show Cairne? Legion was the fan service expansion and that was a huge part of its appeal; even if a lot of the writing was mediocre the fan service element kind of saved it.

Yeah, basically everyone could feel what Warriors felt in Legion - while everyone had iconic class characters, Warriors got Vrykuls.

[Alanar]

Yeah, basically everyone could feel what Warriors felt in Legion - while everyone had iconic class characters, Warriors got Vrykuls.

I though the valarjar and Odyn were pretty iconic, but some cared more for that lame cenarius axe for for example and wanted that.

[Dracullus]

I though the valarjar and Odyn were pretty iconic, but some cared more for that lame cenarius axe for for example and wanted that.

Iconic? Odyn was literally introduced in Legion. And my post wasn't about weapons, but about characters in Order Hall.

[Nymrohd]

Yeah, basically everyone could feel what Warriors felt in Legion - while everyone had iconic class characters, Warriors got Vrykuls.

I still think the Warrior Order Hall campaign should have been a max level campaign shared by everyone (since everyone interacted with Odyn and it would have naturally led to the Helya raid) and the Warriors should have gotten an Army of Legionfall Order instead where they are building something similar to Kalimdor's might, led by Danath, Saurfang and the Battlelord.

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What part of the universe up until BC's launch involved Star Trek style warp core powered spaceships? Spaceships with literal cryostasis sleep pods and parts leaking radiation? What exactly in SL are you claiming is somehow not playing in the warcraft universe while you are happily excuse the bullshit of BC?

Thrall literally starts going by goel and you're gonna argue Metzen isn't into pseudo-intellectual bullshit? The guy who, presiding as company head of story development, oversaw "actually, Illidan was the good guy the whole time, and really you were the bad guy for being so quick to judge and not considering other perspectives" and who re-wrote the entire lore every game instance between WC1 and Wrath draws the line at... the dreadlords with infamously questionable loyalty serving a second master this whole time?

The burden of proof isn't on me. The burden of proof is on Kotick, who is the one who made the contentious claim with no evidence beyond "trust me, I'm Bobby Kotick."

If Metzen hated SL, why was he actively involved in it as Thrall? It was not a major story-crucial role. If he hadn't been interested in doing it, he could have simply said so and they would have had Thrall be one of the leaders who fought off the mawsworn and stayed on Azeroth. If he hated SL's storylines why has he, as currently active lead of the storyline, been happily giving time in the spotlight to things like Anduin's continuing storyline from it. Who do you think decided to forgo a flashy battle trailer and instead focus a trailer on Anduin's introspection?


People have such a weird parasocial relationship with Metzen. They are convinced that he must be "their guy" and agree with all their takes on the game.


I don't know why you'd assume that when he completely threw Illidan, Kael and Vashj under the bus in BC and Arthas and Deathwing were both reduced to showing up to go "muahaha, I'm evil!" in their expansions, sans literally 20 seconds in the final cutscene of ICC.

I am certain the "pseudo-intellectual" part is entirely pointed at Zereth Mortis and pages of writing that felt like a poor man's "Lessons of Vivec" from the Elder Scrolls universe. Nothing of what you describe sounds pseudo intellectual in any shape or form.

[Hitei]

I still think the Warrior Order Hall campaign should have been a max level campaign shared by everyone (since everyone interacted with Odyn and it would have naturally led to the Helya raid) and the Warriors should have gotten an Army of Legionfall Order instead where they are building something similar to Kalimdor's might, led by Danath, Saurfang and the Battlelord.

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I am certain the "pseudo-intellectual" part is entirely pointed at Zereth Mortis and pages of writing that felt like a poor man's "Lessons of Vivec" from the Elder Scrolls universe. Nothing of what you describe sounds pseudo intellectual in any shape or form.

I assumed it was more about the ongoing discussion of the nature of souls/existence and penitence. If we're just talking about ZM having wordy and intentionally vague in-game documents, that seems like a super arbitrary nitpick. The various void/old god riddles over the years are way more obnoxious than any of the ZM stuff.

[Alanar]

Iconic? Odyn was literally introduced in Legion. And my post wasn't about weapons, but about characters in Order Hall.

That is true, but it was cool to see him finally appear. He was very familar in lore. Vrykul being the prognitors and all that. Being a part of that wasnt bad imo.

I do share your take in general on newly introduced characters. Hit or miss there.

[sensei-]

Alpha needs to launch around September since the roadmap suggests an early 2026 release for Midnight (around January or February).

So we'll definitely get the details around Gamescom.

You can safely add +12 months from next week because there's still 2 full raid tiers to do in TWW. Expect Midnight in March or late February next year.

[Ersula]

You can safely add +12 months from next week because there's still 2 full raid tiers to do in TWW. Expect Midnight in March or late February next year.

stop telling people this. There's no reason to think the tww is just skipping season 4. A Feb or March release means tww's time between the x.2 patch & the next expansion is 50% shorter than dragonflight"s, and dragonflight was already a shorter expansion.

Midnight is probably coming early Sumner 2026.

[Scyth]

I'm guessing 11.2 will launch around the end of August and 11.3, or Season 4 in January or February. Midnight pre-patch in June and release in July.
I'd love it if we don't get a S4 tbh, awakened raids are not particularly interesting content to me, especially for 5-6 months.

Alternatively I would like it if they replaced awakened raids with some Remix tbh.

[Dracullus]

Arguments pro S4 probability:
+ it's always cheap thing to do
+ no raid portal reward for S1
+ achiev for doing 8xTWW dungeons in different roles isn't going away in 11.1 (although it could be retired with S2 if S3 will return 4 TWW S1 dungeons)

Arguments against:
- big one - no 11.2.6 patch, going straight to 11.2.7 suggest it's final tier and TWW will be ~2 months shorter than DF
- DF S4 was bland and forgotten after 3 weeks, most people just cleared it for achiev/mounts or ignored
- Remix turned out to be superior way of dealing with last months of expac
- no S4 sign on roadmap which goes beyond 2025 (showing stuff from next Winter)

So stronger arguments are against S4. But I wouldn't bet money it won't be a thing.

stop telling people this. There's no reason to think the tww is just skipping season 4. A Feb or March release means tww's time between the x.2 patch & the next expansion is 50% shorter than dragonflight"s, and dragonflight was already a shorter expansion.

Midnight is probably coming early Sumner 2026.

My personal prediction is late March release for 2 reasons:
- Blizzard has history of releasing patches in March to bump Q1 numbers, even in SL they made barebones 9.0.5 to at least try to bump it
- it makes TWW 2 months shorter, which - again - explain no 11.2.6

Summer is completely out of question (unless something fucks up and MD is delayed). Few months ago I showed all dates here and it's clear that 8 week patches are not "rough estimation", on average they last EXACTLY 8 weeks.

[Ersula]

- no S4 sign on roadmap which goes beyond 2025 (showing stuff from next Winter)

The roadmap does not go beyond 2025. I don't know if you know this but winter starts before the end of the year. Also x.2.9s exist.

[Cheezits]

S4 is going to happen because it is cheap and quite literally better than nothing. It's two new mounts (awakened, M+), a few titles and some coding. It also makes all TWW dungeons mythic at the same time which is good and opens up those mounts to everyone.

There isn't a significant amount of resources being dedicated here and they need all the time they can for the next expansion. But I can see it being half the time of a regular season in the saga.