Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Cheezits]

Goblins should be neutral now tbh. Doesn’t make sense anymore to keep them restricted to the horde given the story in Undermined

I do agree, now that we have a plethora of neutral goblins that owe it to the factions. In canon it was only the Bilgewater who were faction-exclusive and only after Cata, otherwise they are neutral because that's good business.

Interesting that this is happening shortly before neutral SMC too.

[Enrif]

A lot of the playable races should be neutral.

• Blood Elves - had a longer alliance with humans and were once besieged by orcs aiding the forest trolls. By now they can be easily be an intermediary between the factions
• Goblins - they should have been neutral from the start, and undermine is the perfect place to ractife that
• Human - yeah, there are enough humans not aligned with the kingdoms or just outlaws
• Tauren - there was never really any reason for them to be hostile to the alliance, given their long history with night elves
• Dark Iron Dwarves - yeah, they have no beef with the horde, at most with the dark horde, but they got kicked out by the horde
• Highmountain Tauren - yeah, everybody helped them
• Lightforged Draenei - again, everybody helped them and they have no history with the horde
• Mag'har orc - they never interacted with the alliance in a negative way, at most with Yrel, which is more a light thing than anything about the alliance
• Mechagnome - again, helped by everyone
• Nightborne - again, helped by everyone
• Void elf - there is no reason for former blood elves to be not welcome in the horde
• Vulpera - no reason they have any real beef with the alliace.

that would leave the horde with

• Orcs
• Trolls
• Undead
• Zandalari Troll

and the alliance with

• Draenie
• Dwarves
• Gnomes
• Night Elves
• Worgen
• Kul Tiran

and even among those left with the factions, there is enough reason to get most of them into a neutral status.
Gnomes and Dwarves were ropped into the faciton war, but have no real beef with the horde from the start. Draenei lived long alongside the orcs and the reformed honorable orcs can be worked with. Worgen had only real beef with Sylvans and that chapter is closed. Kul Tirans could move into a peace direction with Jainas leadership. Night Elves might be the only ones that have some real grudges from recent events (invasion of kalimdor, killing of cenarius, teldrassil)
The horde races need some work, as the remaining ones were the bad guys for big parts of the recent story. Orcs, Trolls and Undead. Orcs under Thrall and Undead without Sylvanas could perhaps mend ties.

The realy stiuck in the mud are the trolls. Zandalari especially with their recent death of Rastakhan at the hand of the alliance.

[Ersula]

A lot of the playable races should be neutral.

I feel like most people just don't understand how alliances work. Blood elves strongest alliance was with Lordaeron....who are the forsaken now. Stormwind & Kul Tiras are basically strangers to Silvermoon. Goblins are neutral, only one very specific faction joined the horde. And that's how most races work. It's entirely based on where you live & you're effectively creating a character who is already ride or die to their faction.

[Thomir]

The Harbinger might’ve just burned Ka'resh's world soul as fuel to summon a significant portion of Dimensius into reality.

[Joshuaj]

Gonna be honest here, what if Dimensius absorbed K'aresh's Worldsoul, and is projecting it's influence across the Beyond slowly but surely? What if it's been completely ready to claim Azeroth, and all it really needed was a stable foothold to create a portal or so there?

[Tiradon]

Should we get news about the next version PTR soon? Looks like the next patch will live in end of April at least

[Nymrohd]

Should we get news about the next version PTR soon? Looks like the next patch will live in end of April at least

And we still know nothing about Dinars.

[Hitei]

I feel like most people just don't understand how alliances work. Blood elves strongest alliance was with Lordaeron....who are the forsaken now.

It was really more with Dalaran, by all accounts. Their third war experience with Lordaeron was them being treated like shit (see: Garrithos), and the Forsaken were very much not "totally still Lordaeron" in early wow. They were going around actively, unilaterally attacking Lordaeron's old allies (Dalaran, Stromgarde, Thalassian ranger lodges). Dalaran was always friendly with Quel'thalas, and also housed a bunch of their Elves, the new Alliance was friendly with their ranger lodges.

None of it really made any sense. Don't even get me started on the Night Elves suddenly deciding after 10,000 fucking years of Quel'thalas doing magic that they had to do something about it--after they had just (in WC3) fought alongside human and high elf mages, and while they were totally fine with Dalaran and Stormwind and Gnomeregan's mages.

Only slightly more egregious than the Nightborne situation. I do hope that if they make Thalassians neutral in Midnight, they then reconsider making some of the other sort of nonsense cases neutral.

[Ersula]

It was really more with Dalaran, by all accounts. Their third war experience with Lordaeron was them being treated like shit (see: Garrithos), and the Forsaken were very much not "totally still Lordaeron" in early wow. They were going around actively, unilaterally attacking Lordaeron's old allies (Dalaran, Stromgarde, Thalassian ranger lodges). Dalaran was always friendly with Quel'thalas, and also housed a bunch of their Elves, the new Alliance was friendly with their ranger lodges.

None of it really made any sense. Don't even get me started on the Night Elves suddenly deciding after 10,000 fucking years of Quel'thalas doing magic that they had to do something about it--after they had just (in WC3) fought alongside human and high elf mages, and while they were totally fine with Dalaran and Stormwind and Gnomeregan's mages.

Only slightly more egregious than the Nightborne situation. I do hope that if they make Thalassians neutral in Midnight, they then reconsider making some of the other sort of nonsense cases neutral.

You're just moving the goalpost to show off your lore knowledge. The topic was about Silvermoon's "Historical" relationship with the Alliance, which was mostly with Lordaeron. High Elves hate Garithos.... Garithos was from Lordaeron, but he was killed by the Forsaken....Forsaken are the plagued citizens of Lordaeron, so either way that's a moot point. Why you would bring up disliking Garithos when it comes to Silvermoon not liking the forsaken makes no sense.

As for Dalaran's relationship with Silvermoon pre-third-war, I can't find anything substantive besides them both liking magic.

The thing that doesn't make sense is the Silver Covenant constantly evoking loyalty to the Alliance when the Historical Alliance that Silvermoon belonged to has no connection with the modern Alliance. Outside of their name, they're two completely disconnected groups. Stormwind & Silvermoon never interacted. It's basically like namedroping historical knowledge of the Arathi. It makes as much sense as the idea of Troll unification because that's what they all evolved from.

Oh look we're talking about High Elves again because theres a highly anticipated expansion that allegedly revolves around the brain-dead idea of elven unification.

[Hitei]

You're just moving the goalpost to show off your lore knowledge. The topic was about Silvermoon's "Historical" relationship with the Alliance, which was mostly with Lordaeron. High Elves hate Garithos.... Garithos was from Lordaeron, but he was killed by the Forsaken....Forsaken are the plagued citizens of Lordaeron, so either way that's a moot point. Why you would bring up disliking Garithos when it comes to Silvermoon not liking the forsaken makes no sense.

As for Dalaran's relationship with Silvermoon pre-third-war, I can't find anything substantive besides them both liking magic.

I mean... No? Silvermoon's historical relationship with the Alliance was with the Alliance of Lordaeron. It was a military alliance where they got along. Even during that time period, Lordaeron wasn't the city where Silvermoon Elves were living in large numbers and had a close relationship to; Dalaran was. The Blood Elves, more than anyone else would hate Garithos because BC Blood Elves were, until the end of the expansion, ostensibly operating under Kael'thas, who was the one who was personally affronted by Garithos.

Before the fall of Silvermoon, Dalaran was the city they were closest to, not Lordaeron. Dalaran was where they had a bunch of elves living. Dalaran was the place where they were actively part of the leadership--Kael was literally on the Council of Six, the order of Tirisfal to make the Guardian was created by the High Elves of Silvermoon and worked closely with the early leadership of Dalaran, Dalaran was closer to Silvermoon than any other city because the other human kingdoms were scared of magic, they have two thousand years of history before the Alliance of Lordaeron formed. Then Silvermoon fell and the Elves stopped contact (with everyone). Then they re-emerged and their next (and only) experience with Lordaeron was Lordaeron's remnant military trying to murder Kael and his elves.

That is why I brought it up, because this idea is complete bullshit. Lordaeron was never their biggest ally, and they were treated like garbage the last time they interacted with Lordaeron prior to BC, Lordaeron was Garithos.

The Forsaken did not start this "we ARE Lordaeron!" shtick until Cata. So this idea of "oh yeah, those are the plagued people we're friends with we still have an alliance with them" is nonsense. As far as even the Forsaken themselves were concerned, they were a new vengeful group of Undead dissidents who had taken control of the fallen kingdom from the Scourge, not a continuation of the existing government beholden or even acknowledging their treaties.

The thing that doesn't make sense is the Silver Covenant constantly evoking loyalty to the Alliance when the Historical Alliance that Silvermoon belonged to has no connection with the modern Alliance. Outside of their name, they're two completely disconnected groups. Stormwind & Silvermoon never interacted. It's basically like namedroping historical knowledge of the Arathi. It makes as much sense as the idea of Troll unification because that's what they all evolved from.

You are preoccupied with Stormwind in specific, but the Alliance of Lordaeron also contained Dalaran, Stromgarde, Kul Tiras, Gnomeregan, Ironforge and the Wildhammer.

Do you know what every single one of those has in common? They are all part of that modern Alliance. Of course they would be loyal to it. Dalaran was their sister city and the humans they have the most contact with. The humans are the ones they fought alongside even back during the Troll Wars. They fought alongside Gnomeregan, Ironforge, and the Wildhammer just as much as Lordaeron, there's Jaina, pupil of Antonidas, leading Theramore's deployment of the Kul Tirans with the Alliance... so when Lordaeron (and the first Alliance) fell, who are they going to be loyal to? Their thousand year old friends Dalaran and Stromgarde, and newer dwarven/gnomish/human allies, who they've fought alongside? Or the faction that has Trolls (the race they've fought for a thousand years), Orcs (the race that tried to wipe everyone out), and a handful of undead survivors from Lordaeron? Even if the Forsaken had been waving Lordaeron's flag, it wouldn't make much sense.

[Limayria]

And we still know nothing about Dinars.

They're gonna make them the turbulent time ways quest reward lmao enjoy those dinars for the last 5 weeks of the season

[Aucald]

Beledar sounds like Belore, their word for the Sun.

"Beledar" is probably an elvish word, given that the Arathi appear to have included a lot of High Elves in their population and have likely integrated a good deal of Thalassian loanwords into their dialect. Not to mention that the Arathi also appear to venerate fire, flame, and similar motifs, so probably also place a good deal of importance on sun-themed imagery as well.

[Kiivar86]

The Void Lords want to claim worldsouls, yeah? And Dimensius attacked K'aresh, which seemingly had a worldsoul (since the ethereals also had something like the Radiant Song warning which Azeroth has been sending to the races on Azeroth).

So what if Xal'atath is what remains of K'aresh's worldsoul? Saw a crackpot theory along this line a few weeks back and it has stuck with me.

[Viridiel]

"Beledar" is probably an elvish word, given that the Arathi appear to have included a lot of High Elves in their population and have likely integrated a good deal of Thalassian loanwords into their dialect. Not to mention that the Arathi also appear to venerate fire, flame, and similar motifs, so probably also place a good deal of importance on sun-themed imagery as well.

It ostensibly means "Emperor's Vision" and is almost certainly Thalassian based on their other words. I wouldn't be surprised if the word for emperor is straight-up belore and is clipped in the compound, or was clipped to bel to begin with. I find it hard to believe that belore comes from the word for emperor instead, because I don't think high elves ever had emperors. Maybe they did in the distant past.

I think I'd like for a bit of more worldbuilding and breadcrumbing for the Arathi in Midnight, but I hope the bulk is saved for a later expansion. The Arathi are descendants of the One Hundred and the elves who trained them to kill the Amani, so it would be a huge missed opportunity to have no development there at all.

I really want some more development for the Sunwalkers and actually building the connection to the blood elves via the Sun that should be there, but I don't really see how tauren could fit into Midnight. I could see a future where the Sunwell is completely lost and the tauren teach the blood elves to channel the Light of Belore, but I think it's probably unlikely given the focus on "elven reunification". Maybe the Arathi can fit in there somehow.

[Pyrophax]

The Void Lords want to claim worldsouls, yeah? And Dimensius attacked K'aresh, which seemingly had a worldsoul (since the ethereals also had something like the Radiant Song warning which Azeroth has been sending to the races on Azeroth).

So what if Xal'atath is what remains of K'aresh's worldsoul? Saw a crackpot theory along this line a few weeks back and it has stuck with me.

And why she want to corrupt Azeroth, to be like her?
My bet - Xal is constellar-like creature, but not from Order domain like Algalon or Rygelon, but from Void domain.
Thats why she is below Dimensius, thats why she tries to bind Azeroth to the Void. And for power level she slight above Old Gods, who should be on par with Keepers.

[Aucald]

It ostensibly means "Emperor's Vision" and is almost certainly Thalassian based on their other words. I wouldn't be surprised if the word for emperor is straight-up belore and is clipped in the compound, or was clipped to bel to begin with. I find it hard to believe that belore comes from the word for emperor instead, because I don't think high elves ever had emperors. Maybe they did in the distant past.

It could be a kind of semantic drift with emperors often associated with sun themes: Lightbringer, Sun King, the Unconquered Sun, etc., etc. So "Beledar" might be more accurately translated into Thalassian as something like "Vision of the Sun King," which would explain its closeness to "Belore." Given the Arathi's preoccupation with flame and fire themes, it would make sense for their emperor to bear a flame or sun theme themselves.

[Joshuaj]

Reminder that Midnight will probably focus a lot on a Solar theme.

- Sunstrider dynasty.

- High Elves are focused on the Sun instead of the Moon like Night Elves.

- Sunwell.

- Beledar sounds like Belore, their word for the Sun.

- Lots of sun-inspired iconography around Hallowfall.

- The Light is increasingly synonymous with literal Light (which means sunlight) in the lore, for example with Sunwalkers.

- An'she has lots of potential for more lore, now that Elune has been shown some more over the last couple of years. Obviously tied to ancient history as well, like the Earth Mother, which connects to current lore via Elun'ahir, Titan conspiracies, and Old Gods.

- The name of the expansion is Midnight, which is obviously the opposite of Midday and absence of sunlight. So it makes sense that the answer to darkness is more light, thematically.

"The Light is synonymous with literal light"

Where do you think solar power and whatnot comes from?

- - - Updated - - -

There's a reason why they're called cosmic forces.

All forms of government you see come from Order
All forms of chaos and whatnot come from Disorder
All forms of darkness, nothingness, etc come from Shadow
All forms of dying, withering, etc come from Death
All flora and fauna, all celestial bodies that function for life to flourish, etc come from Life
All sources of energy and light (for things like life and whatnot to flourish) come from Light
All physical objects and things displayed in the Beyond come from the Elements

The architects who put all of this in place are the First Ones, who the forces within our cosmology are named after. As for Azeroth (and Worldsouls in general)? Idk. Azeroth could predate the First Ones, could not. I just know she is important.

Everything in the Dark Beyond comes from these forces.

[Ersula]

Yum yum, I can see it now...

Midnight Pre-order Bundle includes:

• Flaring Solarhawk mount
• Belore'dorei Vestments transmog set
• The Sunstone cosmetic hearthstone effect
• 7 Days early access to High Elf allied race

This.... Except Ethereals, not High Elves. Can you imagine a less appealing allied race than "vanilla elves"?

The Forsaken did not start this "we ARE Lordaeron!" shtick until Cata. So this idea of "oh yeah, those are the plagued people we're friends with we still have an alliance with them" is nonsense. As far as even the Forsaken themselves were concerned, they were a new vengeful group of Undead dissidents who had taken control of the fallen kingdom from the Scourge, not a continuation of the existing government beholden or even acknowledging their treaties.

...Which mirrors the Silvermoon remnant once their king abandoned them for Outland.

You keep trying to use their relationship with Dalaran as a reason for Silvermoon to join Varian's hot new alliance that Dalaran didn't even want to join. Did you forget that Dalaran remained neutral rather than join the Alliance?

You are preoccupied with Stormwind in specific, but the Alliance of Lordaeron also contained Dalaran, Stromgarde, Kul Tiras, Gnomeregan, Ironforge and the Wildhammer.

Do you know what every single one of those has in common? They are all part of that modern Alliance.

BUT NOT WHEN THE BLOOD ELVES JOINED THE HORDE. Only Ironforge & Gnomer joined up with this "new" alliance at that point. So it gives the Blood elves that much lower incentive to join themselves.

[Nightshade711]

Yum yum, I can see it now...

Midnight Pre-order Bundle includes:

• Flaring Solarhawk mount
• Belore'dorei Vestments transmog set
• The Sunstone cosmetic hearthstone effect
• 7 Days early access to High Elf allied race

This kinda stuff is a guaranteed for sure.
Though I’d swap out High Elves for another race & also add in some housing-based bonuses. Probably some Quel’thalas and/or void themed decorations for the houses.

If we get a preorder allied race I think they’d come when preorder launches - like the Legion ARs. But we’ll see.

[Hitei]

You keep trying to use their relationship with Dalaran as a reason for Silvermoon to join Varian's hot new alliance that Dalaran didn't even want to join. Did you forget that Dalaran remained neutral rather than join the Alliance?

BUT NOT WHEN THE BLOOD ELVES JOINED THE HORDE. Only Ironforge & Gnomer joined up with this "new" alliance at that point. So it gives the Blood elves that much lower incentive to join themselves.

Please stop. You genuinely do not know what you are talking about.

Dalaran was not neutral coming out of the Third War. In Vanilla, y'know, that period that takes place right before BC (which is "when the Blood Elves joined the Horde"), Dalaran was being actively attacked by the Forsaken and was actively allied with and assisting Hillsbrad, Pyrewood and Ambermill, Alliance towns. Dalaran went neutral in Wrath, after the Blood Elves had joined the Horde, ostensibly because a bunch of its High Elf citizens were now Horde and vouching for the Horde, so Dalaran eventually decided to let the Horde in.

Stromgarde and the Wildhammer were not formal joinees, yes, but they were both actively working with and friendly towards the Alliance and both outright hostile to the Horde. Stromgarde was, like Dalaran, actively being attacked by the Horde. Aerie Peak and their formal High Elf allies, were both in active conflict with the Horde and Revantusk. Kul Tiras in BC was THERAMORE.

So yes. They had plenty of incentive to join their former allies who were all banding together with the Alliance and also allied with their own farstrider lodges outside of Quel'thalas, and very, very little incentive to join up with the """undead citizens of Lordaeron""" who were happily attacking their millennia old allies and also all their allies of the past few decades.

-

I don't know what your bizarre hang-up with the reunification plot is, but Horde Blood Elves was always a very questionable choice, and them remaining Horde instead of going neutral never made much sense. The division between the groups of High Elves only exists because they had to retroactively scramble to explain the multiple groups who never stopped being happy allies of the Alliance (old and new) and who were being attacked en masse by Horde forces. Because it made no fucking sense that Silvermoon was like "yeah bro, we're just gonna join up with these assholes who have been attacking all our farstrider lodges and not join up with the groups who have always been our friends and are helping to protect our rangers", so they tried to band-aid it with "these Thalassian rangers, including the group guarding the border of Quel'thalas are separate from Quel'thalas now and we don't care about them!"

Reunification is long overdue.