Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Nibelheimy]

Would the Demon stuff be a bit of a jump? Maybe. But it would also be a good send off for the Demons and Fel plot imo. Also, I would LOVE it if Blizzard made new players explore Outland in a more current manner. Would provide perfect TBC vibes.

I suppose my point was I was hoping they'd start off the next 2 decades on something more than just vibes. I never stated that Sargeras was returning to only pull out the sword. Brewing is correct, but brewing takes time. Legion coming out 10 years ago means nothing if all we can say about demons right now is that they are up to something. Everybody is up to something. Let them hint at what the something actually is, let it become a credible threat.

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We have TBC and Legion. Those would be the build up expansions lol. TBC introduced the Demons as a major threat to players, Legion showcased the full force of the Burning Legion to players, and whatever could come next could showcase a full-on Demonic War to players. Would be cool.

My past three posts have been on suggesting proper build-up, a break from main story and a possible new start for the franchise to lure new players in by going to a completely unseen, locked away with no way to return to area of the world we've known before, to give the main characters room to breath, lands to change and a reason for intrigue in revamps. I appreciate you may be exited about demon lords that don't exist yet and diving into that. But if you don't want to discuss my suggestions and want to just bring the discussions back to your grand ideas of Demon lords warring and for some reason we're in outland to combat this and that's all the build up we need. I don't know what to say.

If I say why does new player who's never touched an mmo play in 2030 and supposed to care about Fel? You respond with lol BC and Legion are build up enough. It sort of misses the entire reason I made my original posts bringing that particular topic up.

[Joshuaj]

I suppose my point was I was hoping they'd start off the next 2 decades on something more than just vibes. I never stated that Sargeras was returning to only pull out the sword. Brewing is correct, but brewing takes time. Legion coming out 10 years ago means nothing if all we can say about demons right now is that they are up to something. Everybody is up to something. Let them hint at what the something actually is, let it become a credible threat.

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My past three posts have been on suggesting proper build-up, a break from main story and a possible new start for the franchise to lure new players in by going to a completely unseen, locked away with no way to return to area of the world, to give the main characters room to breath. I appreciate you may be exited about demon lords that don't exist yet and diving into that. But if you don't want to discuss my suggestions and want to just bring the discussions back to your grand ideas of Demon lords warring and for some reason we're in outland to combat this and that's all the build up we need. I don't know what to say.

I mean, sure, but it ain't like the Void Invasion in Midnight's had much build up outside of Xal'atath and the few mentions of Renilash lol.

Sure, a new start is fine, but my point on an Outland revamp and whatnot is primarily to deal with the Demons so we won't have to deal with them again for a good while. Also, would feel like a waste for us not see Denathrius again, or deal with the Demon stuff again in the coming years. Idk, I don't think it's worth waiting THAT long.

As for why I think Outland should be the battlefield? Simple. Whoever wins claims the Dark Portal, and whoever claims the Dark Portal claims access to Azeroth. Demonic Factions wage war on eachother to claim the Dark Portal and launch a massive attack on the world. Perfect excuse for an expansion setting imo. I get you don't want to discuss this further, but I wanted to clarify that rq lol.

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Regardless, I do agree in that Blizzard should do new stories for the next 20 years of WoW, primarily on Azeroth. I just want the Denathrius stuff, as well as much of the remaining Demon stuff out of the way, as it seems clear to me that Blizzard wants to at least continue this plotline. When and how is the big question tho.

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Besides, I'd be shocked if Xoroth, Nathreza, etc were built up this much, just for us to never explore them.

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Oh, and 1 last thing, I never said saga. Just 1 expac in a saga, with the main setting being a revamped Outland. The saga itself would be focused on setting up a new age for WoW, since I picture Blizzard making the next saga (or should I say the next couple of stories, since we don't know if the saga stuff is gonna continue post-Worldsoul Saga or not) about finishing off the revamps, finishing off stories built up in past expansions (Like the Arathi Empire, the Titanforged rebels, some cool new Dragon lore, Denathrius, the Demons, and the Auchenai with Outland), and setting up entirely new stories.

[Darkarath]

I would say that after TLT, unless we get a full Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms revamp, we are going somewhere else.

IMO it is practically imposible that Blizzard makes 3 expansions in a row of revamps. Players would complain for sure.

I very much agree that after the WSS we are shelving cosmic themes for a while and starting anew.

WoW is too big, and very unwelcoming to new players. Unless Blizzard finds a way to get new blood, eventually it would start to lose players rapidly. That is why I'm so curious about what they have in mind for Midnight and beyond for new players. It is literally the most important feature for the game in the long run.

Also, come on, there is no way in which we are getting an expansion or saga hopping around between different Demons planets, and revamping Outland again after Draenor is incredibly unlikely.

When the Demons come again, they would do so in a very different way, in the same way that SL brought the Undead threat in a new version, not as The Plague 2.0.

[Pheraz]

I would say that after TLT, unless we get a full Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms revamp, we are going somewhere else.

IMO it is practically imposible that Blizzard makes 3 expansions in a row of revamps. Players would complain for sure.

I very much agree that after the WSS we are shelving cosmic themes for a while and starting anew.

WoW is too big, and very unwelcoming to new players. Unless Blizzard finds a way to get new blood, eventually it would start to lose players rapidly. That is why I'm so curious about what they have in mind for Midnight and beyond for new players. It is literally the most important feature for the game in the long run.

Also, come on, there is no way in which we are getting an expansion or saga hopping around between different Demons planets, and revamping Outland again after Draenor is incredibly unlikely.

When the Demons come again, they would do so in a very different way, in the same way that SL brought the Undead threat in a new version, not as The Plague 2.0.

I agree that is too big.
Chromie was a good step in the right direction.

One of my children plays wow too ("12") and she got used to swap around the expansions with chromie.
What's really interesting is that she always returns back to bfa zones.. I don't know if it's just a personal preference but after she tries other zones to level in she always comes back to those. Maybe they really hit the spot there (alliance). SL is similarly guided but I guess the vibe is not her thing. And DF is really not so good in terms of getting into the wow vibe. You re just thrown in to the dragon isles and it's too much at once imo
They really shouldn't make it the default zone for new players and stick to bfa until they hopefully finally revamped the old world

[Joshuaj]

I would say that after TLT, unless we get a full Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms revamp, we are going somewhere else.

IMO it is practically imposible that Blizzard makes 3 expansions in a row of revamps. Players would complain for sure.

I very much agree that after the WSS we are shelving cosmic themes for a while and starting anew.

WoW is too big, and very unwelcoming to new players. Unless Blizzard finds a way to get new blood, eventually it would start to lose players rapidly. That is why I'm so curious about what they have in mind for Midnight and beyond for new players. It is literally the most important feature for the game in the long run.

Also, come on, there is no way in which we are getting an expansion or saga hopping around between different Demons planets, and revamping Outland again after Draenor is incredibly unlikely.

When the Demons come again, they would do so in a very different way, in the same way that SL brought the Undead threat in a new version, not as The Plague 2.0.

I mean, the Undead were always more than just the Plague, but I think it's a bit unfair to compare the Demons to the Scourge threat-level wise. One was a terrestrial level threat that recently got linked to an actual cosmic threat, while the other was a cosmic threat from the very beginning (The Legion was quite literally the greatest power in the Nether, mind you).

Also, I'm kinda tired of people assuming we won't get an Outland update cause of Draenor. They're essentially different things, and even if you want to count it, WoD is almost 12 years old currently, so wtf yeah? And while my concept does involve planet hopping, there would only really be 2 new zones on unknown worlds, with the rest taking place as raids.

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Idk, I feel like that would be the only way to properly go about it. How else would you do it? Cause the Demons are seemingly the primary power of Disorder (makes sense, the powers of anarchy create entities of anarchy through different means). You can't pull a Shadowlands on it, unless Blizzard BS's a "pantheon" for Disorder, which imma assume is very unlikely tbh.

[Khaza-R]

I would say that after TLT, unless we get a full Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms revamp, we are going somewhere else.

IMO it is practically imposible that Blizzard makes 3 expansions in a row of revamps. Players would complain for sure.

I very much agree that after the WSS we are shelving cosmic themes for a while and starting anew.

WoW is too big, and very unwelcoming to new players. Unless Blizzard finds a way to get new blood, eventually it would start to lose players rapidly. That is why I'm so curious about what they have in mind for Midnight and beyond for new players. It is literally the most important feature for the game in the long run.

Also, come on, there is no way in which we are getting an expansion or saga hopping around between different Demons planets, and revamping Outland again after Draenor is incredibly unlikely.

When the Demons come again, they would do so in a very different way, in the same way that SL brought the Undead threat in a new version, not as The Plague 2.0.

From what I gather on this forum at least, a lot of veteran players seem to want a sort of restart to WoW without losing all their cosmetics and achievements.

So maybe that is best for the game in the long-run. New and old players starting fresh. I am not sure how feasible that would be from a gameplay and character progression perspective. But seeing as they are capable of making seperate game modes like Remix and Plunderstorm, I could see them making a seperate new era mode for 14.0.

I agree that is too big.
Chromie was a good step in the right direction.

One of my children plays wow too ("12") and she got used to swap around the expansions with chromie.
What's really interesting is that she always returns back to bfa zones.. I don't know if it's just a personal preference but after she tries other zones to level in she always comes back to those. Maybe they really hit the spot there (alliance). SL is similarly guided but I guess the vibe is not her thing. And DF is really not so good in terms of getting into the wow vibe. You re just thrown in to the dragon isles and it's too much at once imo
They really shouldn't make it the default zone for new players and stick to bfa until they hopefully finally revamped the old world

That's interesting. But I can understand. Boralus and Kul Tiras were pretty unique in feeling immersive and "lived in". So I wonder if that's why they are drawn to it over more recent expansions

[Darkarath]

I mean, the Undead were always more than just the Plague, but I think it's a bit unfair to compare the Demons to the Scourge threat-level wise. One was a terrestrial level threat that recently got linked to an actual cosmic threat, while the other was a cosmic threat from the very beginning (The Legion was quite literally the greatest power in the Nether, mind you).

Wrong.

The Plague was a Cosmic threat from the beginning. It was always a part of the Jailer's plan, hence, a Cosmic threat. Just to be clear, I hate this part of the lore, but that does not change that SL showed us that the Jailer was behind everything and that even the Demons were just a part of his plan. It is very lame but it is what it is.

Also, I'm kinda tired of people assuming we won't get an Outland update cause of Draenor. They're essentially different things, and even if you want to count it, WoD is almost 12 years old currently, so wtf yeah? And while my concept does involve planet hopping, there would only really be 2 new zones on unknown worlds, with the rest taking place as raids.

At this point you should know better. It would not matter if we were visiting Demon's planets as zones or raids. Blizzard would just not focus so much on Demons or in any other threat for so long, no matter how different you make the planets or demons.

Regarding Outland, I think that at this point it is more likely that they destroy it completely and bring their denizens to Azeroth in a future revamp than making yet another version of Outland / Draenor. As I said, very unlikely to happen. Nothing that we have seen in years points to us returning to Outland or even Draenor.

Idk, I feel like that would be the only way to properly go about it. How else would you do it? Cause the Demons are seemingly the primary power of Disorder (makes sense, the powers of anarchy create entities of anarchy through different means). You can't pull a Shadowlands on it, unless Blizzard BS's a "pantheon" for Disorder, which imma assume is very unlikely tbh.

I have no idea. I think that the Demons being relevant again is so far away that even Blizzard probably don't know how to bring them back.

Probably they would make them appear from time to time in a very minor and abstract way (like the Pit Lord in a version of one of the new delves). Also Denathrius seems like a natural leader for a new Legion but who knows at this point? We will have to wait to see what they do with Sargeras first. My bet is that he won't survive TLT but if he does it would certainly have an impact on the Demon's future.

From what I gather on this forum at least, a lot of veteran players seem to want a sort of restart to WoW without losing all their cosmetics and achievements.

So maybe that is best for the game in the long-run. New and old players starting fresh. I am not sure how feasible that would be from a gameplay and character progression perspective. But seeing as they are capable of making seperate game modes like Remix and Plunderstorm, I could see them making a seperate new era mode for 14.0.

I would support a restart. In fact I think that it is necessary. I just don't think that Blizzard has the balls to do it.

I agree that collections and achievements cannot be restarted, that would kill a good part of the playerbase, but at the same time if they are still there, they would be a barrier for new players, even if we start anew in every other regard.

We also have to bear in mind that Blizzard is changing the new player experience in Midnight and beyond, and it seems to be a big project. So if they are doing that, it would not make much sense that after TLT they restart everything again.

[Al Gorefiend]

What do you guys genuinly think will happen after The Last Titan is over?

World revamp of EK and Kalimdor at the minimum.

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I would support a restart. In fact I think that it is necessary. I just don't think that Blizzard has the balls to do it.

I agree that collections and achievements cannot be restarted, that would kill a good part of the playerbase, but at the same time if they are still there, they would be a barrier for new players, even if we start anew in every other regard.

We also have to bear in mind that Blizzard is changing the new player experience in Midnight and beyond, and it seems to be a big project. So if they are doing that, it would not make much sense that after TLT they restart everything again.

Telling people every achievement/mount/collectable etc currently in the game will be removed but you'll get to keep and carry over the ones you earned will create suicidal levels of FOMO

[Hitei]

Wrong.

The Plague was a Cosmic threat from the beginning. It was always a part of the Jailer's plan, hence, a Cosmic threat. Just to be clear, I hate this part of the lore, but that does not change that SL showed us that the Jailer was behind everything and that even the Demons were just a part of his plan. It is very lame but it is what it is.

MU Gul'dan was "a part of Sargeras plan" and Sargeras is a cosmic threat. That doesn't make WC Gul'dan a cosmic threat. The undead plague wasn't even a world-scale threat. Putricide had to craft an entirely new strain to make it virulent enough to actually threaten the entire planet.

SL did not show us that "the Jailer was behind everything" and I wish you guys would stop endlessly parroting this complete bullshit. All it does is make it obvious you didn't actually pay any attention to anything happening in SL and formed your entire idea of the subject matter secondhand from other people who also did not pay any attention to anything happening.

[Joshuaj]

Wrong.

The Plague was a Cosmic threat from the beginning. It was always a part of the Jailer's plan, hence, a Cosmic threat. Just to be clear, I hate this part of the lore, but that does not change that SL showed us that the Jailer was behind everything and that even the Demons were just a part of his plan. It is very lame but it is what it is.



At this point you should know better. It would not matter if we were visiting Demon's planets as zones or raids. Blizzard would just not focus so much on Demons or in any other threat for so long, no matter how different you make the planets or demons.

Regarding Outland, I think that at this point it is more likely that they destroy it completely and bring their denizens to Azeroth in a future revamp than making yet another version of Outland / Draenor. As I said, very unlikely to happen. Nothing that we have seen in years points to us returning to Outland or even Draenor.



I have no idea. I think that the Demons being relevant again is so far away that even Blizzard probably don't know how to bring them back.

Probably they would make them appear from time to time in a very minor and abstract way (like the Pit Lord in a version of one of the new delves). Also Denathrius seems like a natural leader for a new Legion but who knows at this point? We will have to wait to see what they do with Sargeras first. My bet is that he won't survive TLT but if he does it would certainly have an impact on the Demon's future.



I would support a restart. In fact I think that it is necessary. I just don't think that Blizzard has the balls to do it.

I agree that collections and achievements cannot be restarted, that would kill a good part of the playerbase, but at the same time if they are still there, they would be a barrier for new players, even if we start anew in every other regard.

We also have to bear in mind that Blizzard is changing the new player experience in Midnight and beyond, and it seems to be a big project. So if they are doing that, it would not make much sense that after TLT they restart everything again.

The Scourge is a PARTIAL product of Jailer's plans in the lore, yes. However, the Scourge itself is a terrestrial threat. It having cosmic origins is not the same as it being a cosmic threat. Heck, it was used by both the Legion and the Mawsworn as a bad omen for Azeroth.

And my expansion concept doesn't even have Sargeras in it tbf (As I believe TLT will end in either him leaving with the Titans, him going into self exile, or him dying). Also, I don't think Blizzard will or should do another big Legion threat regarding the Demons. I think Denathrius making his own Legion would make for a killer Demonic faction, sure, but a new Demonic threat entire? Idk. Denathrius is also not nearly as imposing as Sargeras, so I doubt many Demons would bend the knee regardless.

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MU Gul'dan was "a part of Sargeras plan" and Sargeras is a cosmic threat. That doesn't make WC Gul'dan a cosmic threat. The undead plague wasn't even a world-scale threat. Putricide had to craft an entirely new strain to make it virulent enough to actually threaten the entire planet.

SL did not show us that "the Jailer was behind everything" and I wish you guys would stop endlessly parroting this complete bullshit. All it does is make it obvious you didn't actually pay any attention to anything happening in SL and formed your entire idea of the subject matter secondhand from other people who also did not pay any attention to anything happening.

His conspiracy definitely played a hand in a lot of major events in WoW, but I'd argue that kinda works to serve a fanmade idea of mine regarding the first 30 years of Warcraft I.E Warcraft having a "Dark Trinity" of Big Bads!

Sargeras the Destroyer, Zovaal the Jailer, and Dimensius the All-Devouring: The three dark lords responsible for much of the damage caused in the Warcraft Universe!

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When I say "Dark Trinity" I don't mean "they are working together" or anything like that, cause they aren't. Heck, Sargeras and Dimensius would likely try to kill eachother the first chance they get, and both would despise Zovaal and his plan for existence. I say Dark Trinity more as a way of basically expressing that, "if you put these 3 in a specific category, this is what you'd get", ya know?

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

When should we expect the next patch reveal?

I'm sorry to say but its' going to be dry for a while. Best to find other things to occupy your mind. I'm going quite loopy over this period, usually I had something to theorize or think about in regards to the Main Story. But, this time around it really just felt like a off ramp expansion with the McGuffin being taken everywhere.

I do live for the concept of them showing K'aresh and doing a heel turn on the audience with Rootlands / Worldcore Raid, would be probably the funniest meltdown situation in the games' history.

I'd assume Late May at the earliest to Mid July at the latest.

[Joshuaj]

I'm sorry to say but its' going to be dry for a while. Best to find other things to occupy your mind. I'm going quite loopy over this period, usually I had something to theorize or think about in regards to the Main Story. But, this time around it really just felt like a off ramp expansion with the McGuffin being taken everywhere.

I do live for the concept of them showing K'aresh and doing a heel turn on the audience, would be probably the funniest meltdown situation in the games' history.

I'd assume Late May at the earliest to Mid July at the latest.

Why would they have to wait Mid July at the latest? Wouldn't the latest be very early July, assuming the patch releases mid/late June ofc?

[Darkarath]

MU Gul'dan was "a part of Sargeras plan" and Sargeras is a cosmic threat. That doesn't make WC Gul'dan a cosmic threat. The undead plague wasn't even a world-scale threat. Putricide had to craft an entirely new strain to make it virulent enough to actually threaten the entire planet.

Wrong.

In the moment that a cosmic power is behind something, is a cosmic threat by extension.

If the Plague had been successful, who would have ultimately benefited from that success? The Jailer.

SL did not show us that "the Jailer was behind everything" and I wish you guys would stop endlessly parroting this complete bullshit. All it does is make it obvious you didn't actually pay any attention to anything happening in SL and formed your entire idea of the subject matter secondhand from other people who also did not pay any attention to anything happening

I know that it is hard to accept, but that is how wild was Blizzard's mistake with the Jailer. In the moment that the Nathrezim were bound to him through Denathrius, practically everything that happened concerning Azeroth led to the Jailer.

[Joshuaj]

Wrong.

In the moment that a cosmic power is behind something, is a cosmic threat by extension.

If the Plague had been successful, who would have ultimately benefited from that success? The Jailer.



I know that it is hard to accept, but that is how wild was Blizzard's mistake with the Jailer. In the moment that the Nathrezim were bound to him through Denathrius, practically everything that happened concerning Azeroth led to the Jailer.

So is the original Horde a cosmic threat then?

[Darkarath]

So is the original Horde a cosmic threat then?

Obviously.

I mean, they came from another planet, that by itself makes it a cosmic invasion.

The same rule applies. If the initial Horde would have paved the way for the Legion, who would have benefited? Sargeras? Maybe, but since SL exists probably the Jailer

[Joshuaj]

Would the fucking Gnolls in the Azure Span be a cosmic threat cause they wielded Decay magics? Would Elisande be a cosmic threat cause she allied herself with the Legion? Would Fyrakk be a cosmic threat cause he assaulted the Emerald Dream?

I'd argue no for all of those. The Decay Gnolls seem to want to spread Decay across only Azeroth atm, Elisande just wanted what was best for her people (and she doesn't seem to desire conquering the cosmos entire), and Fyrakk's damage to the Dream was not only upon Azeroth's reflection alone, but was also done to ensure Amirdrassil was made aflame, so that when it entered the physical world, it would kick off a new age of fire upon Azeroth. Again, very terrestrial.

Sure, the Scourge kinda served as a herald for the Legion and the Mawsworn initially, but the Lich King abandoned those plans after a bit, and simply wanted to rule Azeroth as it's one true king. That's a very terrestrial threat, despite its cosmic background.

The Legion, the Mawsworn, Dimensius and his forces, and even the Old Gods are cosmic threats, as they seek to claim the cosmos entire. And yes, I would imagine the Old Gods wanted this as well, as despite not being as powerful as their parents, they're still monstrous entities of the Void and had big things planned.

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Obviously.

I mean, they came from another planet, that by itself makes it a cosmic invasion.

The same rule applies. If the initial Horde would have paved the way for the Legion, who would have benefited? Sargeras? Maybe, but since SL exists probably the Jailer

The original Horde primarily wanted to claim Azeroth so they could thrive in a new home. That is terrestrial by its very nature, not cosmic.

What Ner'Zhul planned in WC2 would be considered cosmic however.

[Darkarath]

Would the fucking Gnolls in the Azure Span be a cosmic threat cause they wielded Decay magics? Would Elisande be a cosmic threat cause she allied herself with the Legion? Would Fyrakk be a cosmic threat cause he assaulted the Emerald Dream?

I think that Gnolls are not driven by any ultimate purpose, so no.

Elisande? Obviously. She worked to support the Legion, whatever the circumstances for that support were.

Fyrakk was all by himself. He is a Primal power of Azeroth. One of the few WoW's villains that really wasn't manipulated by another force.

Sure, the Scourge kinda served as a herald for the Legion and the Mawsworn initially, but the Lich King abandoned those plans after a bit, and simply wanted to rule Azeroth as it's one true king. That's a very terrestrial threat, despite its cosmic background.

The Lich King and the Plague are different things. We know that the Plague still exists without the Lich King. I agree that Arthas resisted the Jailer, but that is irrelevant in this case, as if he would have won, it would still had been a victory for the Jailer, as Arthas or Bolvar could not resist him forever.

The original Horde primarily wanted to claim Azeroth so they could thrive in a new home. That is terrestrial by its very nature, not cosmic.

The original Horde came to Azeroth because they were corrupted by the Legion and they wanted to conquer Azeroth. Come on man, this is basic Warcraft stuff.

[Joshuaj]

I think that Gnolls are not driven by any ultimate purpose, so no.

Elisande? Obviously. She worked to support the Legion, whatever the circumstances for that support were.

Fyrakk was all by himself. He is a Primal power of Azeroth. One of the few WoW's villains that really wasn't manipulated by another force.



The Lich King and the Plague are different things. We know that the Plague still exists without the Lich King. I agree that Arthas resisted the Jailer, but that is irrelevant in this case, as if he would have won, it would still had been a victory for the Jailer, as Arthas or Bolvar could not resist him forever.



The original Horde came to Azeroth because they were corrupted by the Legion and they wanted to conquer Azeroth. Come on man, this is basic Warcraft stuff.

-The Gnolls still held the magics of Decay, and wish to spread rot across the world. Decay is an element that helped shape the physical universe's building blocks. By your logic, the Gnolls would be cosmic because of this.

-If she herself wanted to conquer the universe, she would be considered a cosmic threat. KJ is exactly that, funny enough. However, nothing implied she sought anything outside of boundaries of Azeroth. With the Legion or not, she herself was a terrestrial threat. AU Gul'dan in comparison would be considered a cosmic threat, as he sought power, and her very much wanted to conquer the universe alongside the Legion.

-The Jailer legit calls Arthas a failed herald, and Arthas was very much capable of resisting the Jailer's calls no matter what. Had the Lich King won, the Jailer's plans would be fucked. Also, the plague is still terrestrial, as it was aimed at the people of Azeroth alone. The Jailer needed to amass an army for the King of the Damned, so he had the Dreadlords manipulate the Legion to launch the plague across Azeroth, which would turn the living into undead monstrosities. Sure, the powers which kickstarted the Scourge were cosmic, but the Scourge itself was terrestrial, and the Lich King ended up being a terrestrial threat because of Arthas defying both the Legion, Zovaal, and Ner'Zhul.

-Yes, the Orcs were corrupted by the Legion, but that was legit not the only reason they invaded Azeroth. Funny enough, prior to the Dark Portal plan, the Legion kinda didn't give a shit about the Orcs. However, the Orcs were infighting, and wanted a new world to conquer and call home, as Draenor was dying out due to the Fel magics tainting it. That, along with Sargeras possessing Medivh, gave the Legion a new excuse to use the Orcs once more.

The Legion used the Orcs for cosmic purposes, but the Orcs themselves just wanted a new world to conquer and thrive in. This would change in WC2 tho, as Orcs such as Ner'Zhul wanted to conquer more than just Azeroth.

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Terrestrial threats are threats to just the planet. If the threat only seeks to claim, cause harm to, or destroy the planet and nothing else, that is inherently not cosmic, despite whatever cosmic connections it may have. Fyrakk would be a terrestrial threat. I imagine you can say Deathwing was a terrestrial threat, as I don't think he planned to do anything outside of Azeroth, could be wrong tho. The Scourge would be a terrestrial threat.

A cosmic threat is a threat to the entire cosmos. No matter how strong or weak it may be, if it seeks to conquer the cosmos in any way, it's a threat to that whole. Elisande wouldn't count here, as she just wants her people on Azeroth to endure. The Burning Legion and it's commanders would be a cosmic threat. The Drust would be a cosmic threat. The Old Gods would be a cosmic threat.

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Oh, and Fyrakk wasn't alone, he was working with the forces of the Firelands, which are a terrestrial threat.

[Khaza-R]

I know that it is hard to accept, but that is how wild was Blizzard's mistake with the Jailer. In the moment that the Nathrezim were bound to him through Denathrius, practically everything that happened concerning Azeroth led to the Jailer.

Also lets just be clear that the Jailer claims this himself in game

Zovaal says: Can your mortal minds fathom...
Zovaal says: how long I have waited?
Zovaal says: Every event set in motion.
Zovaal says: Every pawn put into play.

then you also have this

Mal'Ganis says : The Legion, the Scourge, Argus...all pawns in a game beyond your grasp. One that now nears its end.

and this

Kel'thuzard says : For too long I've had to disguise my true motives. Pretend to serve false masters. When all the while, it was I who helped architect Azeroth's end!

and

Mueh'zala yells: It be Mueh'zala who brought Helya to da Jailer's side... struck a deal for ol' Odyn's eye... and made da Banshee warchief with a whisper!

So yeah. That's naturally why people come to the conclusion he is behind everything. Because that's literally what the game tells you. You have to go and read things not in the game to believe he just got lucky and things just happened to fall in his favor

[Darkarath]

The Gnolls still held the magics of Decay, and wish to spread rot across the world. Decay is an element that helped shape the physical universe's building blocks. By your logic, the Gnolls would be cosmic because of this.

Not really. You are confused.

By your logic, any Warlock character would be an agent of the Legion because they use Fel Magic. The point is not that they use a given kind of cosmic force, but what or who is behind their actions.

Both The Plague and Elisande worked to fulfill the objective of others, even if Elisande had the survival of her race in mind when doing it. The Gnolls do not have someone behind them to reach an ultimate purpose that I'm aware of.

Sure, the powers which kickstarted the Scourge were cosmic, but the Scourge itself was terrestrial, and the Lich King ended up being a terrestrial threat because of Arthas defying both the Legion, Zovaal, and Ner'Zhul.

Again, Lich King and Scourge are different things. The evidence is that the Scourge of Arthas and Bolvar behave in a certain way, and the Scourge without control behaves in another. The Scourge purpose is what the Jailer intended, and both Lich Kings supported their aims, willingly or not, even if they not fulfilled those aims.

Yes, the Orcs were corrupted by the Legion, but that was legit not the only reason they invaded Azeroth. Funny enough, prior to the Dark Portal plan, the Legion kinda didn't give a shit about the Orcs. However, the Orcs were infighting, and wanted a new world to conquer and call home, as Draenor was dying out due to the Fel magics tainting it. That, along with Sargeras possessing Medivh, gave the Legion a new excuse to use the Orcs once more.

The Legion used the Orcs for cosmic purposes, but the Orcs themselves just wanted a new world to conquer and thrive in. This would change in WC2 tho, as Orcs such as Ner'Zhul wanted to conquer more than just Azeroth.

Revise your lore.

No Legion means no Gul'dan as we know it. No Gul'dan means no Fel Orcs and no Azeroth invasion. They were used by the Legion to further their aims.