Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Dvalin]

It would certainly be better. But it's also a massive reach to assume we will get all the old iconic zones revisited within our lifetimes. Even more so if we assume each zone is scaled up to a similar size required to make Quel'thalas work as a single expansion.

I would love nothing more than a Lordaeron focused expansion. I am just not sure I am willing to wait until 2040 to get it. Even more so when the Arathi will be long past by then.
Right now is the best time to have a Northern EK expansion.

But that isn't coming; They haven't announced such a thing. Nothing has been said about some kind of multi-expansion rework of the old world. Just that we return to two specific places, updated and all that, namely Quel'thalas and Northrend.

[Sondrelk]

But that isn't coming; They haven't announced such a thing. Nothing has been said about some kind of multi-expansion rework of the old world. Just that we return to two specific places, updated and all that, namely Quel'thalas and Northrend.

They said we are returning to Quel'thalas and Ulduar. For some reason assuming Ulduar actually means Northrend is all good. But assuming Quel'thalas means the surrounding zones as well is a complete reach. Never got that...

Regardless. It's more about Quel'thalas itself not having enough content at the moment to warrant a full expansion. And if you want to expand, then you have the Amani, Scourge, and Arathi as the obvious candidates. All of whom have perfect zones just outside Quel'thalas.

Also, expanding Quel'thalas means it almost certainly won't be seamless with the rest of EK. Which nullifies one of the big draws with remaking it at all. One of the big ones that players have wanted since TBC.
Maybe it's a small niggle for some, but it is valid to point out that it will make Quel'thalas completely incongruous with the surrounding zones.

[Dracullus]

It would certainly be better. But it's also a massive reach to assume we will get all the old iconic zones revisited within our lifetimes. Even more so if we assume each zone is scaled up to a similar size required to make Quel'thalas work as a single expansion.

I would love nothing more than a Lordaeron focused expansion. I am just not sure I am willing to wait until 2040 to get it. Even more so when the Arathi will be long past by then.
Right now is the best time to have a Northern EK expansion.

You made many assumptions to convince yourself Northern EK expansion is only good choice for 12.0.

No, if 'classic' EK revamp will be separate route, they don't have to split it into 10 expansion, 2 would be fine (imo split on Thandol Span would be perfect), 3 would be plenty. Now add (pretty optimistic, I know) that expansion length is 19 months (no 2.6 in roadmap suggest this as goal for TWW). This way 3rd 'classic' expac would come in 2032. Of course it's made up scenario, just like yours "I won't see end of this in my lifetime", but at least I base it on something.

I won't stop you from dreaming that Midnight will be something more they announced on Blizzcon, we are speculating so anything is possible. I have just one request - please don't spam this thread how dissapointing it is that Midnight is exactly same thing they already announced.

By the way, outside main zones, I think there is big chance that Orgrimmar and Stormwind will be revamped along with neighbourhoods.

They said we are returning to Quel'thalas and Ulduar. For some reason assuming Ulduar actually means Northrend is all good. But assuming Quel'thalas means the surrounding zones as well is a complete reach. Never got that...

"In this chapter, you will again be returning to the Old World, but this time to the wintry lands of Northrend" - actual quote from Metzen.

[Dvalin]

They said we are returning to Quel'thalas and Ulduar. For some reason assuming Ulduar actually means Northrend is all good. But assuming Quel'thalas means the surrounding zones as well is a complete reach. Never got that...

Regardless. It's more about Quel'thalas itself not having enough content at the moment to warrant a full expansion. And if you want to expand, then you have the Amani, Scourge, and Arathi as the obvious candidates. All of whom have perfect zones just outside Quel'thalas.

Also, expanding Quel'thalas means it almost certainly won't be seamless with the rest of EK. Which nullifies one of the big draws with remaking it at all. One of the big ones that players have wanted since TBC.
Maybe it's a small niggle for some, but it is valid to point out that it will make Quel'thalas completely incongruous with the surrounding zones.

Metzen on Midnight: 'In this expansion you'll be returning to the old world, to the fabled lands of Quel'thalas...'
Doesn't sound like Lordaeron to me.

Metzen on the Last Titan: 'In this chapter you'll again be returning to the old world. This time, to the wintery lands of Northrend. And there, at Ulduar, you'll bear witness to the return of the Titans.'

As has been told in interviews, they're upscaling the zones. They'll be more detailled and larger than their 2005 versions. For obvious reasons. So, encountering the Amani and the Scourge as secondary antagonists (after the Void and its minions) is indeed reasonable. But probably within the confines of a Quel'thalas sub-continent. And, yeah, it will probably stay incongruous with the older zones to its south.

[Ersula]

Metzen on Midnight: 'In this expansion you'll be returning to the old world, to the fabled lands of Quel'thalas...'
Doesn't sound like Lordaeron to me.

Yes, but in promoting TWW they didn't say we'd be visiting Undermine either, even though that's the first thing people jumped to when proposing an underground expansion. Same with Legion & Argus. The issue here being if you were to re-attach Silvermoon to the rest of the world map some of Lordaeron would also have to be altered. If that's not a pretense to update lordaeron I don't know what is.

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As has been told in interviews, they're upscaling the zones. They'll be more detailled and larger than their 2005 versions.

They said they'd be "expanding" on Quelthalas. That doesn't necessarily mean making the existing lands bigger. (Again, how the hell do you make the Eversong region physically bigger while also attaching it to the existing Lordaeron?) It's more likely they mean adding new (Island) zones to the west, north and east of Silvermoon.

[Dvalin]

Yes, but in promoting TWW they didn't say we'd be visiting Undermine either, even though that's the first thing people jumped to when proposing an underground expansion. Same with Legion & Argus. The issue here being if you were to re-attach Silvermoon to the rest of the world map some of Lordaeron would also have to be altered. If that's not a pretense to update lordaeron I don't know what is.

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They said they'd be "expanding" on Quelthalas. That doesn't necessarily mean making the existing lands bigger. (Again, how the hell do you make the Eversong region physically bigger while also attaching it to the existing Lordaeron?) It's more likely they mean adding new (Island) zones to the west, north and east of Silvermoon.

I'll be reposting the quote from the interview again:
"We’re giving our world builders some free rein to expand. Those areas may be geographically larger than they were. That’ll give them more opportunities to introduce some of the smaller points of interest where you’ll have a culture or a local tribe and give them the ability to have storylines that center on that. We don’t want people to feel like, oh, wait a minute, it’s that same place I know. It’s gonna feel like the same place; it’s just that it is literally going to be a little bit larger than what you’ve experienced. Flight being much more accessible, we need to have a larger landmass for people to be able to explore.”


Anyway, I'm talking content at launch. Not patch-content. Undermine fits the War Within theme, and a Light/Void 'zone' could be the one for Midnight (maybe even Ka'resh, if we don't visit it in 11.2). Also, the border between a hypothetical (new) Quel'thalas and (old) Lordaeron is not an issue invisible walls/mountains can't fix. Such a version of Quel'thalas would function the same as the myriad of island-continents we've been given over the years.

[Ersula]

I'll be reposting the quote from the interview again:
"We’re giving our world builders some free rein to expand. Those areas may be geographically larger than they were. That’ll give them more opportunities to introduce some of the smaller points of interest where you’ll have a culture or a local tribe and give them the ability to have storylines that center on that. We don’t want people to feel like, oh, wait a minute, it’s that same place I know. It’s gonna feel like the same place; it’s just that it is literally going to be a little bit larger than what you’ve experienced. Flight being much more accessible, we need to have a larger landmass for people to be able to explore.”.

You just said they'd be upscaling the entire zone, which is stupid and not what the above quote describes. Moving a few coastlines & adding islands is still more likely based on what they said.

And nobody was saying a Lordaeron revamp would be coming at launch. Everyone's been proposing it as patch zone content, because they love patch zones for some insufferable reason.

[Dvalin]

You just said they'd be upscaling the entire zone, which is stupid and not what the above quote describes. Moving a few coastlines & adding islands is still more likely based on what they said.

And nobody was saying a Lordaeron revamp would be coming at launch. Everyone's been proposing it as patch zone content, because they love patch zones for some insufferable reason.

What the devs in the interview mention is actual upscaling/the enlarging of zones. I mean, we read the same bit of text, didn't we? Saw the same interviews with the devs, and the same announcements?

Not sure about your second point, too. Plenty of people are (falsely) expecting a Northern EK revamp. That's not patch-content.

[Joshuaj]

I don't think it's entirely unfair to assume people want at least the Plaguelands updated, especially since the expansion itself is about the Void's invasion on Azeroth + the Light's battle with the Void.

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I'll be reposting the quote from the interview again:
"We’re giving our world builders some free rein to expand. Those areas may be geographically larger than they were. That’ll give them more opportunities to introduce some of the smaller points of interest where you’ll have a culture or a local tribe and give them the ability to have storylines that center on that. We don’t want people to feel like, oh, wait a minute, it’s that same place I know. It’s gonna feel like the same place; it’s just that it is literally going to be a little bit larger than what you’ve experienced. Flight being much more accessible, we need to have a larger landmass for people to be able to explore.”


Anyway, I'm talking content at launch. Not patch-content. Undermine fits the War Within theme, and a Light/Void 'zone' could be the one for Midnight (maybe even Ka'resh, if we don't visit it in 11.2). Also, the border between a hypothetical (new) Quel'thalas and (old) Lordaeron is not an issue invisible walls/mountains can't fix. Such a version of Quel'thalas would function the same as the myriad of island-continents we've been given over the years.

I'm gonna keep it 100 with y'all: Please maybe expect a Naga based zone off the coasts of Quel'thalas for 12.1 lol, cause y'all know damn well that might happen.

[Melorandor]

It would certainly be better. But it's also a massive reach to assume we will get all the old iconic zones revisited within our lifetimes. Even more so if we assume each zone is scaled up to a similar size required to make Quel'thalas work as a single expansion.

I would love nothing more than a Lordaeron focused expansion. I am just not sure I am willing to wait until 2040 to get it. Even more so when the Arathi will be long past by then.
Right now is the best time to have a Northern EK expansion.

I think it might be sooner than realized. I think there will be some not so major but not really minor re visitation to Lordaeron during The Last Titan, and maybe Midnight.

I think in Midnight we will probably some stuff happen to the EPL.

[Dvalin]

I don't think it's entirely unfair to assume people want at least the Plaguelands updated, especially since the expansion itself is about the Void's invasion on Azeroth + the Light's battle with the Void.

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I'm gonna keep it 100 with y'all: Please maybe expect a Naga based zone off the coasts of Quel'thalas for 12.1 lol, cause y'all know damn well that might happen.

With Azshara aligning herself with the Void, we might indeed see her during Midnight. Though I don't think the Naga are one of the 'Elven clans' mentioned by Metzen. I think the more 'traditional' elves were meant (Quel'dorei, Sin'dorei, Kal'dorei, Ren'dorei and Shal'dorei).

[Joshuaj]

With Azshara aligning herself with the Void, we might indeed see her during Midnight. Though I don't think the Naga are one of the 'Elven clans' mentioned by Metzen. I think the more 'traditional' elves were meant (Quel'dorei, Sin'dorei, Kal'dorei, Ren'dorei and Shal'dorei).

I think 12.0 will primarily focus on uniting the Elves once more, with 12.1 being focused on the Naga, and 12.2 being focused on the final battle of Renilash.

[Dracullus]

With Azshara aligning herself with the Void, we might indeed see her during Midnight. Though I don't think the Naga are one of the 'Elven clans' mentioned by Metzen. I think the more 'traditional' elves were meant (Quel'dorei, Sin'dorei, Kal'dorei, Ren'dorei and Shal'dorei).

I think 'scattered elven clans' mentioned by Metzen are just Blood/High/Void Elves (+ maybe some Dark Rangers if Sylvanas will be back) and whole plot will be simply their return to Silvermoon. Night Elves and Nightborne already have their homes.

By the way, where you expect next neighborhoods? If my theory that it will come with Orgrimmar/Stormwind revamp is correct, imo we should first look at places with modern capitals. Obviously neutral Silvermoon (both for High and Blood Elves) is certain in Midnight, imo next could be Goblins (Undermine central station has even unused metro line for that) and Night Elves (Amirdrassil).

Undead/Worgen/Tauren/Draenei definitely needs city revamp, Wandering Isle for Pandaren is little bit better, not sure if Dwarves/Gnomes will be covered by Stormwind or separate thing. And before them we probably see at least 1 neutral in Northrend.

[Thomir]

They used the thin human model in the WoW weekly and it almost got me excited. We'll never get to be an old lanky wizard.
https://worldofwarcraft.blizzard.com...-1115-and-more

[Alanar]

They used the thin human model in the WoW weekly and it almost got me excited. We'll never get to be an old lanky wizard.
https://worldofwarcraft.blizzard.com...-1115-and-more

Or actual flowing wizard beards or stuff like that.


ZzzzZZ

[Marlamin]

As such, we are faced with a choice.

Or, alternatively, we don't really know their process and all of it is just absolute guesswork and it's not worth 'making a choice' or even argue about (again). /shrug

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

Ultimately, we just need the Narrative Team and the Warcraft Team and its leadership allowing them to make better products.

[Marlamin]

It is at least on par with evidence such as "goblin raid" or "ethereal raid" icons.

Disagree on that, but again things like these are always going to be a matter of opinion and those always go in circles in this thread.

Your 'mapping' is largely interpretive based on your imagination and while I agree it is part of the creative process for sure, I definitely wouldn't put the art or what you've interpreted on the same level as actual files added to the game named by Blizzard themselves (the latter of which, names, are rare these days).

If it were a evidence ranking, I'd put it a few ranks below "in-house Blizzard concept art" (e.g. the visual zone development stuff here: #1 #2 #3), of which most of the concept art they make won't actually end up happening (nor even seeing a public release on ArtStation if it's extremely unused) either.

Then a few ranks above "in-house Blizzard concept art" is going to be assets (including icons) from the game, which aren't exactly a guarantee of something happening either (there's so much stuff in the files that never sees the light of day).

While I agree that it is awesome art that influences their general world building themes and early in-house zone concept art (like linked above), that's probably about it. I don't think it's worth going any deeper into it than that, definitely not to the level of trying to connect very specific things from the art to current/upcoming lore or future content. The release of these kind of image sets would have to go by the outsourcing people and they wouldn't okay anything that is specific enough to tie to upcoming content like that. And if it is used by future content in a direct enough manner, by us calling it out and focusing on it like this that is a great way for them to not work with said company again.

EDIT: Like Blizzard says on working with West Studio, it is just influencing, which is not as on-point/lore-specific as you're interpreting it to be.

Tyler has earned a reputation as one of the most talented concept artists in the business – I am consistently impressed by the work that he and his studio put out. His versatility, creative prowess, and raw ability are paired with strong communication, collaborative spirit, and flexibility. Each of the last three studios where I worked (EA Los Angeles, Sony Santa Monica, and Blizzard) commissioned pieces from Tyler that helped shape creative vision. I expect concepts from Tyler will continue to influence the development of many characters, objects, and worlds to come.

In one of the ArtStation posts by Jimmy Lo from the Visual Development team he specifically thanks West Studio for early ideas/designs that then go into his own concepts as well, so definitely below in-house art/assets in terms of relevance if you ask me.

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

I feel like "strings" attached to a live in-development product is a bit different than artwork for pre-production use cases to give a direction for production.

Ultimately, whether or not 11.2 is Underground or K'aresh it doesn't change the fact that the Live Service portion of the A Plot storytelling needs a level up whether through out of game elements or in-game elements that make it more cohesive and experiential.

I am just not really sure what this achieves beyond a "got'cha" moment and further erosion of understanding that maybe things aren't alright in this department rather than assumptive ingenuity when Blizzard has not had a failed conceptual standpoint for expansions its' just the execution that blows everything up, usually.

I feel like you can always headcanon these expansions into incredible products. Unfortunately we do not end up getting those products, no matter what. Mostly because they're out of scope of any development timeline possible within the framework of expansion time windows, product content lineups and cost with a staff that is unfortunately on a conveyor belt that moves at a pace to their superiors wishes which adds further complimentary issues.

I think it'd be amazing if we did have this type of product for the Underground expansion but as we saw they essentially used this expansion as a Warlords of Draenor -> Legion Escape hatch. At least they opted for fan service opportunities even if they remain excessively disconnected and artificial while the A Plot flaunders and looks comical.

I still appreciate the fantastical, conceptual and speculatory things that stem from this thread even if reality is unfortunately always disappointing these days.

[Scyth]

I think 'scattered elven clans' mentioned by Metzen are just Blood/High/Void Elves (+ maybe some Dark Rangers if Sylvanas will be back) and whole plot will be simply their return to Silvermoon. Night Elves and Nightborne already have their homes.

I think it means all the High Elves as well but I really hope the Nightborne get some attention and also play an important role as they have barely got anything since Legion.
Given the close relationship between Blood Elves and Nightborne though, it’s almost a given they would. Hopefully lol

Midnight will definitely end with all High Elves back on good terms and sharing Silvermoon though.