Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[milkmustache]

There's enough in SL itself to imply the whole concept is "Fake Afterlife fucked with by Titans", but they didn't confirm it for whatever reason. I still think it's because they were scared of upsetting fans. It's immediately followed up by DF where launch has "Dragons were fucked with by Titans" and then they delayed "Titans are bad dudes" until TLT. Even though it's obvious to anyone who has read a book that they are enslaving Azeroth in their big stasis ball.

They, for whatever reason, want to drag this reveal out forever. Don't ask me why.

I think it was probably a mixture of new OC desires by former writing staffs and the fact that it would've been just another weird layer of the onion they keep peeling back and never getting to the point with. I think you're right, they're gonna go full in on it with TLT and hopefully deliver it well.

[Limayria]

The Aman'thul thing is a very secret hint that is easily missed. However, even if the memories are canon things, then it does point to it being suspicious that ONLY The Primus knows of the Titans.

...and he's the PRIME(us) just like Odyn is the Prime Designate. Holy shit how did it take me that long to realize? I think someone just mentioned it last page too LOL.

It's all a big Titan scam. Hell, Nymue may as well have been a Prime something too, just assigned to Life.

That was meee haha

But yeah the titans creating eternal ones with fake memories would be very interesting and could be a part of the "titan conspiracy" were learning about

We also see the jailor use the (presumably) titan made soul engines in northrend in the 9.2 raid cutscenes don't we? Why would zereth mortis be connected to titan tech on azeroth if it was made by someone other than titans

[Cheezits]

You know, if they reveal that Primus is a scab/liar/Titan agent, that would explain why the Lich Margrave was the one who helped the Forsaken and not him. Maybe she'll take over if he goes rogue?

Does anyone else in the pantheon even talk about the First Ones or was it just him?

[hattahat]

As I’ve said before, I think it’s fair to say that Elune is a goddess of Life—one of the Pantheon of Life. The reason she’s involved with other cosmic forces isn’t because she was born from them or bound to them, but simply because she actively reached out to them. She approached the Winter Queen as a sister, Eonar as a close friend, and it's only reasonable to believe that she tried to build similar relationships with both the Light and the Void as well.

[Dvalin]

The design of the First Ones makes it to where the cosmic influences and the primal influences can interact with eachother and work off of one another, whether it be from the cosmic embodiments which lord over the powers, or from the nature of the influences themselves. That's why the intersections of the pattern exist, that's why reality is the way it is. That's why the Shadowlands has a form of structure in it, that's why Elune and Xe'ra have connections, that's why the Dreadlords can infiltrate the other forces, that's why the Titans can be allowed to affect the Dream or wield lots of other magics, that's why light crystals in the Beyond can become sources for life, etc.

Shall I bring up more examples? Or is this enough? Kinda wanna end this argument to discuss potential 11.2 and Midnight stuff.

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The Tears of Elune, her link to the Druids, and the fucking World Seed are clear examples of Elune utilizing Life magics. She can use other magics, and that still wouldn't negate her true nature.

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Wouldn't this go against the Titans wanting to he credited for everything tho?

100% agreed. I think there's too much wishfulthinking going on now in this thread. The new cosmological conflict with the Worldsoul at centrestage has been clear since around Shadowlands, nothing in recent expansions has retconned this. The new lore in Hallowfall has even strengthened this connection, as did the Margrave's talk with Calia in Shadowlands, for example, clarifying how the forces of the universe can be mixed and matched.

[Joshuaj]

You know, if they reveal that Primus is a scab/liar/Titan agent, that would explain why the Lich Margrave was the one who helped the Forsaken and not him. Maybe she'll take over if he goes rogue?

Does anyone else in the pantheon even talk about the First Ones or was it just him?

...The Jailer.

[Cheezits]

...The Jailer.

Yeah, that's harder to reconcile with this theory. Still could just be he doesn't know what their true forms are- just that they are his enemies.

[Dvalin]

Retconning Shadowlands would create far too many problems, as both Dragonflight and the War Within work with - and elaborate upon - concepts introduced in Shadowlands. This discussion is nonsensical.

[Joshuaj]

Yeah, that's harder to reconcile with this theory. Still could just be he doesn't know what their true forms are- just that they are his enemies.

Why wouldn't he know about the Titans? Ain't it made VERY clear in the lore that the forces are pretty darn aware of eachother?

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Retconning Shadowlands would create far too many problems, as both Dragonflight and the War Within work with - and elaborate upon - concepts introduced in Shadowlands. This discussion is nonsensical.

I do think them kinda warping some of the Shadowlands lore makes sense, so long as it doesn't negate what's established. The Brokers originally being from K'aresh is one of those acceptable changes, as the story kinda hinted at them being native to the Shadowlands originally (idk if it was confirmed that they were native to the Realm or not, but if so, then it's whatever).

[Cheezits]

Actually this is reminding me that I had similar questions about why Blizz was hiding that the Primalists had legitimate beefs and what the Titans did and are doing to the Dragons is fucked up. And I think I know why:

If they reveal Zovaal and Old!Sylvanas were justified? The player character was in the wrong and helped perpetuate slavery, basically. They had no idea but... who WANTS to find that out? In this culture? As we saw with BFA people take the events of this game very very personally.

Maybe they are just trying to craft the "Titans played you all for chumps" reveal in a way that is as palatable as possible for the oversensitive modern gamer.

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Retconning Shadowlands would create far too many problems, as both Dragonflight and the War Within work with - and elaborate upon - concepts introduced in Shadowlands. This discussion is nonsensical.

The First Ones being Titans would not be a retcon. It would be a twist, but nothing makes it impossible to happen.

[Limayria]

Retconning Shadowlands would create far too many problems, as both Dragonflight and the War Within work with - and elaborate upon - concepts introduced in Shadowlands. This discussion is nonsensical.

Establishing the first ones = titans isn't a retcon, it's never been said they were different things and the elaboration on shadowlands lore in DF builds a stronger case for the titans having appropriated parts of the realm of death as they did with the realm of life

And the TWW titan lore is about the titans lying to and manipulating the titan forged

Actually this is reminding me that I had similar questions about why Blizz was hiding that the Primalists had legitimate beefs and what the Titans did and are doing to the Dragons is fucked up. And I think I know why:

If they reveal Zovaal and Old!Sylvanas were justified? The player character was in the wrong and helped perpetuate slavery, basically. They had no idea but... who WANTS to find that out? In this culture? As we saw with BFA people take the events of this game very very personally.

Maybe they are just trying to craft the "Titans played you all for chumps" reveal in a way that is as palatable as possible for the oversensitive modern gamer.

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The First Ones being Titans would not be a retcon. It would be a twist, but nothing makes it impossible to happen.

People took BFA badly because BFA forced you to actively and "willingly" commit war crimes if you wanted to play a horde race at all there was no manipulation involved, the expac opened on "go burn these civilians to death" and basically just kept sending you to murder civilians

It was especially nonsensical as a DH player considering how demon hunters had no connection to the horde and the illidari was composed of blood elves and night elves, why would my character suddenly go burn down the homes and families of her allies??

[Dvalin]

Actually this is reminding me that I had similar questions about why Blizz was hiding that the Primalists had legitimate beefs and what the Titans did and are doing to the Dragons is fucked up. And I think I know why:

If they reveal Zovaal and Old!Sylvanas were justified? The player character was in the wrong and helped perpetuate slavery, basically. They had no idea but... who WANTS to find that out? In this culture? As we saw with BFA people take the events of this game very very personally.

Maybe they are just trying to craft the "Titans played you all for chumps" reveal in a way that is as palatable as possible for the oversensitive modern gamer.

The cosmic forces are generally amoral (not immoral), and the way they work is quite binary. Especially those of the Pantheon of Order. So, in our eyes when the goals align, they're considered good (Titans until recently, Light most of the times) or evil (Void and Disorder). Even though they work as intended.

@ Alex Wolf I recommend you play around Zereth Mortis a bit more. The First Ones are not at all like the Titans. It's not reconciable. DF states propaganda about how everything that's created should be credited to the Titans. It wouldn't make sense if Zereth Mortis is part of this propaganda, as it's explicitly stated to NOT be of Titanic origin.

[Cheezits]

The cosmic forces are generally amoral (not immoral), and the way they work is quite binary. Especially those of the Pantheon of Order. So, in our eyes when the goals align, they're considered good (Titans until recently, Light most of the times) or evil (Void and Disorder). Even though they work as intended.

People already have complained about the Titans being "villain batted" in DF. What you said is true but how the average player handles it is another story.

I still think in the end, only a handful of them (watchers/Titans) will be actually cruel. Odyn for sure. Even if Amanthul is the final boss I don't expect him to be an outright villain.

[Dvalin]

People already have complained about the Titans being "villain batted" in DF. What you said is true but how the average player handles it is another story.

I still think in the end, only a handful of them (watchers/Titans) will be actually cruel. Odyn for sure. Even if Amanthul is the final boss I don't expect him to be an outright villain.

I think the plot of TWW does their other side more justice than that one bit of lore back in DF. The execution is much better now.

But, yeah, literacy is bad sometimes.

[Joshuaj]

Establishing the first ones = titans isn't a retcon, it's never been said they were different things and the elaboration on shadowlands lore in DF builds a stronger case for the titans having appropriated parts of the realm of death as they did with the realm of life

And the TWW titan lore is about the titans lying to and manipulating the titan forged

What do you mean it's not been established that they were different? What? Does someone legit need to spell it out for you or summ???

From the differences in their relics, to the differences in their magics, to the differences in their architecture, to the differences of their workshops and naming conventions, etc. They are very much different, unless I am to believe the Titans are THAT good at lying about a point they themselves are trying to hide from mortals for some reason...

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People already have complained about the Titans being "villain batted" in DF. What you said is true but how the average player handles it is another story.

I still think in the end, only a handful of them (watchers/Titans) will be actually cruel. Odyn for sure. Even if Amanthul is the final boss I don't expect him to be an outright villain.

Not to be that guy, but the fans think a lot of things...

The fans are also wrong a lot.

[milkmustache]

What do you mean it's not been established that they were different? What? Does someone legit need to spell it out for you or summ???

From the differences in their relics, to the differences in their magics, to the differences in their architecture, to the differences of their workshops and naming conventions, etc. They are very much different, unless I am to believe the Titans are THAT good at lying about a point they themselves are trying to hide from mortals for some reason...

I think you're misunderstanding. Their point isn't that the First Ones are presented differently than the Titans, but that our indrect knowledge of the First Ones would allow for a reveal that they are the Titans without it being a retcon.

[Limayria]

What do you mean it's not been established that they were different? What? Does someone legit need to spell it out for you or summ???

From the differences in their relics, to the differences in their magics, to the differences in their architecture, to the differences of their workshops and naming conventions, etc. They are very much different, unless I am to believe the Titans are THAT good at lying about a point they themselves are trying to hide from mortals for some reason...

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Not to be that guy, but the fans think a lot of things...

The fans are also wrong a lot.

I mean you seem to be incapable of understanding that characters can be wrong in a story

And we haven't seen titan stuff yet, we've seen titan forged stuff on Azeroth made and maintained by keepers, which could also be built a certain way to influence the way the titan forged view and interact with the world much like places like oribos in shadowlands or bastion

And titan tech shows up as the end goal of zovals plan, using the manifold to try and reset creation or whatever

Zereth mortis and it's aesthetic and magics could easily be connected to actual order stuff in the realm of order as it was meant as a space nothing else in the shadowlands would see so they wouldn't need to be hiding it


And most importantly from a meta narrative PoV the first ones are the titans from classic wow the titans were shown as distant, dispassionate creator gods who we only knew through relics they left behind in their work shops and legends of their acts, they fulfill the exact same role in the narrative even if not in the universe, it's not even like an interesting case of "it's like poetry it rhymes" it's literally just copy pasting an old thing with out an actual understanding of what made it compelling, like how Elune provided a contrast to the titan mythos we were exposed to and the other myriad creation stories in the setting

Only problem is, her own powers always seem Light/Shadow/Arcane-based. Not Life.

If she were a Goddess of Life, of the Pantheon of Life, from the Realm of Life Zereth Vitae, you would expect her to throw out mostly Rejuvenations and Lifeblooms, not cosmic beams of arcane energy.

I get what you're saying though. And I find it interesting that her main collaborators from the different forces always seem to represent Life (Eonar, WQ, Malorne, etc.).

But her own properties always seem to paint her as somebody more affiliated with Light and Shadow.

The Moon.
The Stars.
Eclipses.
Balance between Night and Day.
The Night Warrior.
The White Lady.
Moonwells.

Here's an alternate hypothesis on her collaborations.

She is of the Light and Shadow. Like a Naaru, she is of the Light but the Shadow is also intrinsic to her very being.
She wants to spread, foster, and protect Life around the cosmos. Just like all higher beings of the Light wish to do.

So she...

1. Arrived on Azeroth seeking to protect and nurture its worldsoul, and all life dwelling on it.

2. First, she befriended the elementals (particularly the elements of water and air seemed to favour her).

3. Then, she perhaps even sought to work with one of the Old Gods? The 5th one is depicted with vines and skulls in Chronicles, so there might be a connection there.

4. Other primitive life forms may have sprung from these early efforts, such as the ancestors of the Tauren and Trolls. Legends about the Earth Mother started to appear.

5. Titans arrive and she forms some kind of bond with both Eonar and the Wild God Malorne. Dragons and various powerful beings like Dryads appear on Azeroth, all seeking to protect it. The Emerald Dream is ordered in a way that benefits her efforts on Azeroth, with powerful world trees having their Life magic seep through into the physical realm.

6. Elune forms some kind of sisterhood with the Winter Queen, or perhaps even installs the soul of a fellow Light-affiliated being into the "robot" we've met. They made arrangements so that the forms of life Elune needs in her efforts on Azeroth can be sent back again (Wild Gods), while later still some could even be kept on Azeroth indefinitely (Wisps).

7. The World Tree project begins in the physical realm in an attempt to spread Life more efficiently. It faces opposition and setbacks over and over again. But aided by the life-giving energies of the worldsoul, more advanced races begin to appear under the light of the moon. Haranir, Kaldorei, and others.

8. Enter the modern era, with all the history that we know of.

I think there's gonna be something between Elune and the curse of flesh and void and life all coming together in TLT to lead us towards some future post saga content in whatever shape that takes

[Nightshade711]

To be fair with the whole Titans/Shadowlands debate.
The Shadowlands are very ordered.

Even if the Titans themselves didn’t MAKE the Shadowlands it could make sense for them to have ordered it.

[Eldryth]

The Emerald Dream we know on Azeroth is not the same as the Shadowlands we went to. The Shadowlands and the Plane of Life itself are much better comparisons.

Of course the Emerald Dream isn't the same as the whole Shadowlands, that's why I didn't make anything like that comparison.


It is, explicitly, Ardenweald's counterpart in the Realm of Life, which makes a lot of the answers we got involving it in Shadowlands very suspect. Why would a supposedly natural part of the Shadowlands be intrinsically paired with an artificial construct within the Realm of Life? Why would a Life goddess be ruling over a foreign incursion into Life?

I hadn't really bought into the idea of the Titans being behind shaping the Shadowlands, but it'd actually be the simplest answer to this. Why would Ardenweald be paired with a Titan-distorted version of Life? Because it, too, was created or altered by the Titans. And Elune could have gotten there because of her link with Eonar.

[Cheezits]

To be fair with the whole Titans/Shadowlands debate.
The Shadowlands are very ordered.

Even if the Titans themselves didn’t MAKE the Shadowlands it could make sense for them to have ordered it.

Yeah, Marsaminus confirms that there was Shadowlands before the Pantheon. Winter Queen just popped up one day.

Just like how they made the Dream, the Titans probably wrangled an emptier, less sentient Shadowlands into the energy generator it is now.