Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Sondrelk]

The MoP remix class sets were datamined a long time before Remix happened.

The MoP Remix Class sets were also available long before MoP Remix. So it's not exactly a fair comparison. (Recolour, but still)

[Viridiel]

What do people think the titan conspiracy will actually be? I feel like at this point the idea that Azeroth is in stasis is so obvious that it can't be the full extent of the conspiracy. I think at the very least the reason the Old Gods were imprisoned wasn't actually because destroying them would hurt the planet, as evidenced by the fact that we've systematically killed all of them with no ill effects (including once using titan technology), but because the Manifold is powered by the Black Blood. I think there also has to be something involving the titans, the Void, and Disorder based on the box at the end of the secret event, probably directly related to the nathrezim, but I don't really have any ideas for what it could be.

[Hitei]

What do people think the titan conspiracy will actually be? I feel like at this point the idea that Azeroth is in stasis is so obvious that it can't be the full extent of the conspiracy. I think at the very least the reason the Old Gods were imprisoned wasn't actually because destroying them would hurt the planet, as evidenced by the fact that we've systematically killed all of them with no ill effects (including once using titan technology), but because the Manifold is powered by the Black Blood. I think there also has to be something involving the titans, the Void, and Disorder based on the box at the end of the secret event, probably directly related to the nathrezim, but I don't really have any ideas for what it could be.

That Worldsouls are fundamentally not Titans, or that Titans aren't even "Titans"*, and the Pantheon has just been going around basically order-corrupting Worldsouls into Titans (the same way the Void wants to make them Void-creatures), whereas without the manifold they'd turn into whatever the First Ones actually intended them to be, or even just permanently stay Worldsouls intended to be the living heart of a vibrant and life-filled planet.

*Significantly more tinfoil, but based on Aman'thul being very conveniently "the first Titan who woke up", and that he unlike say Eonar, is so stringently ONLY ORDER!, and that he has some weird pull with (and looks a lot like) the Constellar--I think it's not totally impossible that Aman'thul is actually some sort of innate order being (like maybe the constellars are) rather than a Titan, and the conspiracy here is that he basically started going around Order-corrupting Worldsouls, and telling these newly born beings "hey we're totally the same and siblings, I woke up just before you, we should go help other Titans wake up by Ordering them :^)))".

[Wyrt]

What do people think the titan conspiracy will actually be? I feel like at this point the idea that Azeroth is in stasis is so obvious that it can't be the full extent of the conspiracy. I think at the very least the reason the Old Gods were imprisoned wasn't actually because destroying them would hurt the planet, as evidenced by the fact that we've systematically killed all of them with no ill effects (including once using titan technology), but because the Manifold is powered by the Black Blood. I think there also has to be something involving the titans, the Void, and Disorder based on the box at the end of the secret event, probably directly related to the nathrezim, but I don't really have any ideas for what it could be.

I think it's going to be that World Souls aren't necessarily Order aligned and that Azeroth is likely Light aligned and the Titans were trying to convert her to Order.

[Timester]

Guys, we are entering pure Metzen's phase. Arathi Highlands questline is the continuation of Metzen's shortstory.

So, expect for now on Metzen Rule of Cool PoV on all lore. If he sees Titans as "evil", we WILL get Titans as "evil" (something that he planned since day one of World of Warcraft, so nothing new).

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I don't think Metzen would want the Titans to be outright evil. As far as we're know, they are his "Gods" in the Warcraft mythos.

It's also based on Greek Pantheon, where all are absolute pieces of shit. There is no question that Metzen wrote the Titans as slavers of Azeroth and we are just little ant byproducts.

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I think it's interesting that they showed Xal being imprisoned but not WHY she was imprisoned.

How are we going to see that? A cinematic? Book?

Most likely sounds that she was an outsider, not part of the the cool "Old Gods" bros. If anything, seems that the Old Gods are something resulting of Azeroth's own influence and Xal, an outworlder, came and told them that directly.

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I think it's interesting that they showed Xal being imprisoned but not WHY she was imprisoned.

How are we going to see that? A cinematic? Book?

Most likely sounds that she was an outsider, not part of the the cool "Old Gods" bros. If anything, seems that the Old Gods are something resulting of Azeroth's own influence and Xal, an outworlder, came and told them that directly.

[Eldryth]

I think it's going to be that World Souls aren't necessarily Order aligned and that Azeroth is likely Light aligned and the Titans were trying to convert her to Order.

That's very likely to be part of it (though maybe not the Light part, I suspect she's a balanced mix of all kinds of magic), but it'll be really disappointing if it's just that. If you tease a big secret for years, it'd be very disappointing for the entire answer to be something most people guessed long before the buildup even started.

I think that it'd have to be one of many lies/omissions that they used as part of a bigger agenda. Tyr did tell us that they have an end goal that he doesn't know and couldn't fathom. But, ultimately, I think it'd come down to them wanting to control and order the entire cosmos. Lately we've seen more and more that they can't seem to stand anything not fitting into their order- their many failsafes to keep the Earthen from developing free will, infusing dragon eggs with Order magic against their will...

A bunch of the Uldaman lore books point to stuff like that too. Declaring that everything good should be credited to the Titans because nothing can truly exist without being ordered, replacing the true history of the Black Empire with nothing but chaos and misery to hide the fact that they had advancements without the Titans, Odyn's obsessive suicidal crusades against the "heretics" of Avaloren...


I suspect their endgame is a perfectly controlled and regulated universe with no free will. Beautiful, advanced, peaceful, and prosperous... but with no freedom, and without even the ability to think about anything the Titans don't approve of.

[Holdodlig]

I think it's going to be that World Souls aren't necessarily Order aligned and that Azeroth is likely Light aligned and the Titans were trying to convert her to Order.

Seeing how Azeroth actually is a "Prime" World Soul, I'd say that Azeroth actually would be the equivalent of a chromatic dragon, meaning she has hold into many powers.

This would explain why the people of Azeroth can easily switch between Light, Dark, Life, Death, Order or Chaos.

[Joshuaj]

I think it's going to be that World Souls aren't necessarily Order aligned and that Azeroth is likely Light aligned and the Titans were trying to convert her to Order.

I don't think Azeroth being innately Light-aligned is the answer either tbh.

[Limayria]

I think we're gonna learn the titans have kept azeorth in stasis to slowly order the entire cosmos to their liking, explain the emerald dream and (most likely) at least some parts of the shadowlands we saw

The titans have also gone around putting both demons and old gods (void) in prisons, I also think that we're gonna learn more about the sacred flames unique blend of light/order magic soon and hopefully have a set up for a mirror to it in the form of fel/void magic that leads to dh 3rd spec

[Lady Atia]

There’s also the Nozdormu scythe that I’ve been wanting since it was datamined.


But I’m willing to bet that it’ll be one of the Evoker artifacts for Legion Remix.

Yeah that's my bet too. Kaleg (sword) and Alextrasza (staff) also have weapons but they never really used them ingame from what I remember (and I also dont think Noz used his scythe for anything aswell to be fair).

Honestly, they could roll out all three for the three specs - Kalegs sword for Dev, Alex's staff for Pres and Noz' scythe for Aug. Just say all three are taken out of another timeline, make a little scenario of a what-if where the legion wins and the aspects die or something.

[Timester]

I became interested in digging a little deeper into this.

Basically, the Titans, Keepers and Watchers are inspired by all sorts of ancient history and myth. Norse, Egyptian, Greek, Hindu, etc. The strong Norse vibe with the Keepers around Ulduar is probably just due to the fact that it is located in Northrend and the heavy Egyptian tilt during Cataclysm is likely because it was all located around Uldum.

Yes, they are all based on our world pantheon mixed with Rule of Cool. After all, these were all starting ideas of two huge Thor Comics nerds, Metzen and Samwise. It's no big secret.

[Sondrelk]

Yeah that's my bet too. Kaleg (sword) and Alextrasza (staff) also have weapons but they never really used them ingame from what I remember (and I also dont think Noz used his scythe for anything aswell to be fair).

Honestly, they could roll out all three for the three specs - Kalegs sword for Dev, Alex's staff for Pres and Noz' scythe for Aug. Just say all three are taken out of another timeline, make a little scenario of a what-if where the legion wins and the aspects die or something.

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Completely forgot about the Kalecgos weapons, and didnt realize there was an Alexstrazsa staff.
Unlikely that they make the full suite of variants the old ones had. But those weapons with some basic recolours seems feasible. Don't even really need a proper aquisition questline. Could just add some random demon that you have to kill to recover it. Dawn of the Infinites as an Order Hall. Bronze Dragons tell you that there is a time displaced demon, and that you have to kill them to prevent timeline shenanigans, and also they have the weapons of the Aspects.

[Lady Atia]

Completely forgot about the Kalecgos weapons, and didnt realize there was an Alexstrazsa staff.
Unlikely that they make the full suite of variants the old ones had. But those weapons with some basic recolours seems feasible. Don't even really need a proper aquisition questline. Could just add some random demon that you have to kill to recover it. Dawn of the Infinites as an Order Hall. Bronze Dragons tell you that there is a time displaced demon, and that you have to kill them to prevent timeline shenanigans, and also they have the weapons of the Aspects.

Ooooor wait. Even better - what if ... they use Prince Malchezaar for that. I think he never re-appeared in Legion, and it would be a cute nod to him having a (seemingly) time-lost Gorehowl back in Karazhan.

[Sondrelk]

Ooooor wait. Even better - what if ... they use Prince Malchezaar for that. I think he never re-appeared in Legion, and it would be a cute nod to him having a (seemingly) time-lost Gorehowl back in Karazhan.

That would be pretty funny, yes. Three variants of the same questline to kill Malchezaar for the Artifact weapons. Just stick him in random caves around the Broken Isles, have him do a funny emote, and then we kill him and get the fancy Artifact weapon cutscene.

[Ersula]

I never said it was. It's just that Keepers were originally clearly inspired by Norse myth more or less exclusively, so it's interesting to see if there are other patterns to it.

Like you say, probably just rule of cool.

The Titans were based on Greek mythology, then when they started naming their minions the devs started going through other mythologies. Tyr was just named that way. They didn't actually base personality traits on Norse mythology until Wrath of the Lich King where they invented a bunch of other Keepers & based their personal backstory on Norse myth. For Example, then then in Cataclysm those Keepers were based on Egyptian mythology.

Not sure when they decided it, but this perfectly aligned to use Ra-den, which Ra both means king or god in norse, Ra, an Egyptian king god, and Ra-den, as in Raiden, a Japanese god, but also originates from Rei gong, a primordial chinese god of light & thunder.

Both in the story & development of the game, Keepers were invented after Watchers. Keepers are Watchers impowered by the Titans, per Archaedas is initially identified as a Keeper then established as a Keeper, but also deeply confusing because Tyr is apparently not elevated to be a Keeper, but stronger than all the Keepers. Archaedas literally got destroyed by low level players, etc.

[Joshuaj]

Notice how y'all are talking about the Titans many mythological inspirations...

And notice how none of those inspirations look akin to the Progenitors magics and their Sacred Geometry inspiration.

It's almost like they're completely different things

[Cheezits]

As much as I love the idea of Alex's staff for Preservation, it's definitely going to be Ysera themed.

[Nightshade711]

Yeah that's my bet too. Kaleg (sword) and Alextrasza (staff) also have weapons but they never really used them ingame from what I remember (and I also dont think Noz used his scythe for anything aswell to be fair).

Honestly, they could roll out all three for the three specs - Kalegs sword for Dev, Alex's staff for Pres and Noz' scythe for Aug. Just say all three are taken out of another timeline, make a little scenario of a what-if where the legion wins and the aspects die or something.

I completely forgot about those too.
I’d like Kaleb’s sword too for sure.

I’m willing to bet their order hall would just be the new Timeways area from the Dawn of the Infinite but with more assets placed around obviously.

But I wonder how they’ll handle the class campaign. I think it’d be too much work for them to make a whole new one just for Evoker.

[Sondrelk]

As much as I love the idea of Alex's staff for Preservation, it's definitely going to be Ysera themed.

If it was chosen based on what makes sense, absolutely. But we are going by the assumption that Evokers will get Artifact Weapons based on stuff that is unobtainable, but in the files.
The most likely option for Evokers was always a single weapon with a reused appearance just to have an Artifact Weapon in that slot for Legion Remix. These ones are just on the table because they are Dragon themed weapons.

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I completely forgot about those too.
I’d like Kaleb’s sword too for sure.

I’m willing to bet their order hall would just be the new Timeways area from the Dawn of the Infinite but with more assets placed around obviously.

But I wonder how they’ll handle the class campaign. I think it’d be too much work for them to make a whole new one just for Evoker.

There isnt that much work to make a new questline honestly. Given it could easily be Bronze Dragon themed given the obvious route with Remix as a whole being about timeline shenanigans, it could easily be reused quests from the other campaigns with actors swapped around. DK questline to assault Lights Hope Chapel, but all the Paladins are replaced with Murlocs as an example.

[Ersula]

Notice how y'all are talking about the Titans many mythological inspirations...

And notice how none of those inspirations look akin to the Progenitors magics and their Sacred Geometry inspiration.

It's almost like they're completely different things

Nobody's pretending that the First Ones was concieved before the Titans IRL. But also it wouldn't make sense for the First Ones to be Titan-Coded. The Titans are just one-sixth of the universe's theme party & the first ones are the hosts.