Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Thomir]

I've always imagined that there is 1 First One for each cosmic force, totalling 6. And perhaps the First One of Order built the Zereths or most of the First One machinery.

[Joshuaj]

I've always imagined that there is 1 First One for each cosmic force, totalling 6. So perhaps the First One of Order built the Zereths or most of the First One machinery and that's why Zereth Mortis is titan-coded.

You're close. Based off Firim's notes + what Chronicle 4 states regarding the Shadowlands "mythos", the 6 Cosmic Influences in the chart are portions of 6 Progenitors. These 6 Progenitors are named Light, Shadow, Order, Disorder, Life, and Death based off Chronicle. If we take this at face value, this also means the forces in the Cosmic Chart are named after the Progenitors.

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So, it's less that there is a "First One of Order", and more like "The Influence of Order is a portion of a being literally known as Order".

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Nobody's pretending that the First Ones was concieved before the Titans IRL. But also it wouldn't make sense for the First Ones to be Titan-Coded. The Titans are just one-sixth of the universe's theme party & the first ones are the hosts.

My argument was about the latter ordeal. Ofc nobody believes the First Ones came before the Titans IRL. What, you think I'm dumb enough to argue that?

[Nightshade711]

Nobody's pretending that the First Ones was concieved before the Titans IRL. But also it wouldn't make sense for the First Ones to be Titan-Coded. The Titans are just one-sixth of the universe's theme party & the first ones are the hosts.

Nobody's pretending that the First Ones was concieved before the Titans IRL. But also it wouldn't make sense for the First Ones to be Titan-Coded. The Titans are just one-sixth of the universe's theme party & the first ones are the hosts.

I personally don't think the Titans themselves are the First Ones.
I just don't think the First Ones exist at all. They're just a myth made by the Titans after they ordered the Shadowlands.

I think it's better than the terrible writing & retcons that came with the introduction of the First Ones in the first place.

[Joshuaj]

I personally don't think the Titans themselves are the First Ones.
I just don't think the First Ones exist at all. They're just a myth made by the Titans after they ordered the Shadowlands.

I think it's better than the terrible writing & retcons that came with the introduction of the First Ones in the first place.

Why would they be a myth made by the Titans? Why would the Titans do such a thing when it's been more than confirmed that the Titans like to take credit for the creation of things?

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Idk, sounds like a contradiction.

[Khaza-R]

The myth (or rather lie) of the First Ones is that they are the progenitors of the cosmic forces. They're probably actually the 7th force. After the saga our goal will probably be to kill all the First Ones and free the universe from their influence. Allowing it to exist in its unfettered, natural state.

[Ersula]

The myth (or rather lie) of the First Ones is that they are the progenitors of the cosmic forces. They're probably actually the 7th force. After the saga our goal will probably be to kill all the First Ones and free the universe from their influence. Allowing it to exist in its unfettered, natural state.

That's literally what the Jailer wanted.... That's also exactly the plot of Shadowlands, just...again.

[Joshuaj]

The myth (or rather lie) of the First Ones is that they are the progenitors of the cosmic forces. They're probably actually the 7th force. After the saga our goal will probably be to kill all the First Ones and free the universe from their influence. Allowing it to exist in its unfettered, natural state.

They are not the 7th. The 7th might be one of the First Ones, but that's it.

[Ersula]

They are not the 7th. The 7th might be one of the First Ones, but that's it.

Considering its already established they don't plan this far ahead, they were definitely talking about Renilash & one of the existing cosmic forces taking over the universe. "What is to come" is not an entirely new cosmic force we've never heard of, its one of the forces taking over the others instead of existing in balance with the other 5.

Prediction; We "banish the shadow forever" and the Light decides to take over the universe, completely destroying the First One's design.

[Joshuaj]

Considering its already established they don't plan this far ahead, they were definitely talking about Renilash & one of the existing cosmic forces taking over the universe. "What is to come" is not an entirely new cosmic force we've never heard of, its one of the forces taking over the others instead of existing in balance with the other 5.

Prediction; We "banish the shadow forever" and the Light decides to take over the universe, completely destroying the First One's design.

Then what was Firim talking about regarding the 6 being 1 song ans the 7th being another? Or how the 7th covets what the 6 hold fast?

[Ersula]

Then what was Firim talking about regarding the 6 being 1 song ans the 7th being another? Or how the 7th covets what the 6 hold fast?

There's a very high chance he was talking about the Jailer & the Mawsworn themselves. They were off death but also enemies of death, and wanted to destroy the entire cosmic order.

[Khaza-R]

They are not the 7th. The 7th might be one of the First Ones, but that's it.

I got strong vibes from SL that the 7th force is actually Fate itself. Which makes sense as an external power which forces pre-destination on others.

So yeah, its entirely possible that the First Ones just lied about being the origins of the cosmic forces. They are entirely artificial and they are just servants of Fate who seeks to dominate the six. Bonus points thats Aman'Thul is secretly aligned with the 7th force and why he is obsessed with the "true timeline"

[Joshuaj]

There's a very high chance he was talking about the Jailer & the Mawsworn themselves. They were off death but also enemies of death, and wanted to destroy the entire cosmic order.

Why would it talk about the Jailer when the Jailer is a force of Death?

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I got strong vibes from SL that the 7th force is actually Fate itself. Which makes sense as an external power which forces pre-destination on others.

So yeah, its entirely possible that the First Ones just lied about being the origins of the cosmic forces. They are entirely artificial and they are just servants of Fate who seeks to dominate the six. Bonus points thats Aman'Thul is secretly aligned with the 7th force and why he is obsessed with the "true timeline"

Considering SL was all about fate, I'm fairly certain fate is a construct of Death. Ik fate exists outside of the Shadowlands, but my point is more-so that it's a construct of Death, and said construct has effect over the entire cosmos.

[Khaza-R]

Considering SL was all about fate, I'm fairly certain fate is a construct of Death

Well SL was an artifical constuct itself, so yes of course.

[Ersula]

I got strong vibes from SL that the 7th force is actually Fate itself. Which makes sense as an external power which forces pre-destination on others.

So yeah, its entirely possible that the First Ones just lied about being the origins of the cosmic forces. They are entirely artificial and they are just servants of Fate who seeks to dominate the six. Bonus points thats Aman'Thul is secretly aligned with the 7th force and why he is obsessed with the "true timeline"

So, the First Ones aren't actually anything & there is a secret First First ones above them? That's the most tedious mythology I've could ever imagine. Just delete the entire franchise at that point.

Why would it talk about the Jailer when the Jailer is a force of Death?

Why would it consider the Jailer a force of Death if it declared war on Death, first. The Maw was never part of the First One's design so obviously, they would consider it & its people a completely separate thing; It doesn't matter if he originated in that sphere, just like Sargeras belongs to the Disorder sphere even though he originated in the Order sphere.

[Joshuaj]

So, the First Ones aren't actually anything & there is a secret First First ones above them? That's the most tedious mythology I've could ever imagine. Just delete the entire franchise at that point.
Why would it consider the Jailer a force of Death if it declared war on Death, first. The Maw was never part of the First One's design so obviously, they would consider it & its people a completely separate thing; It doesn't matter if he originated in that sphere, just like Sargeras belongs to the Disorder sphere even though he originated in the Order sphere.

That...just means Zovaal, a power of Death, was going against the Eternal Ones, who are the main powers of Death.

Zovaal might've gone against the natural way of things, but he was still trying to do things in Death's image. Heck, when he starts to siphon Azeroth's worldsoul, the Jailer says "Death claims the soul of your world".

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Well SL was an artifical constuct itself, so yes of course.

It's about as artificial as the rest of the cosmos, using that logic.

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The Shadowlands isn't like the Dream. It's more like the Death equivalent of the Nether, or the Death equivalent of the Life Realm.

[Limayria]

Notice how y'all are talking about the Titans many mythological inspirations...

And notice how none of those inspirations look akin to the Progenitors magics and their Sacred Geometry inspiration.

It's almost like they're completely different things

yeah sacred geomtry has nothing to do with greek mythos Lol never mind the fact that three of the five afterlives we saw have heavy greek theming, from the stayrs in ardenwld to the everything in bastion to the maws use of terms like stygia if anything sacred geomtry would make a lot of sense for a more "pure order" style of magic and aesthtic

[Hitei]

Why would it consider the Jailer a force of Death if it declared war on Death, first. The Maw was never part of the First One's design so obviously, they would consider it & its people a completely separate thing; It doesn't matter if he originated in that sphere, just like Sargeras belongs to the Disorder sphere even though he originated in the Order sphere.

But none of this is true. The Jailer was explicitly attempting to make all of reality subservient to Death, no different from the shit the Void has always done, or Order is basically doing, or the Light and Fel ostensibly also attempt. He was acting exactly as he should within the larger cosmic balancing act of the Pattern.

The Maw was entirely part of the First One's design, what? They literally put a Waystone in the Maw because it was all part of the plan that Zovaal was going to be an issue and then a person was going to show up and need to freely move in and out of the Maw to maintain the Shadowlands.

[Khaza-R]

The Shadowlands isn't like the Dream. It's more like the Death equivalent of the Nether, or the Death equivalent of the Life Realm.

It isn't though? Its entire existence is a the will of the Arbiter. Nothing about the SL is organic. It was a series of afterlives created by articially printed Eternal Ones and their fake dimensions. Everything about the SL is fake and created by the First Ones who are also fakes.

[Ersula]

But none of this is true. The Jailer was explicitly attempting to make all of reality subservient to Death, no different from the shit the Void has always done, or Order is basically doing, or the Light and Fel ostensibly also attempt. He was acting exactly as he should within the larger cosmic balancing act of the Pattern.

His entire goal was to destroy the pattern & the cosmic order entirely. That's emphatically not part of the cosmic order. Yes, the void fights the light & order fights disorder, but death is only supposed to put an end to life, not steal the key to the Sepulcher & try to remake the universe.

The Maw was entirely part of the First One's design, what? They literally put a Waystone in the Maw because it was all part of the plan that Zovaal was going to be an issue and then a person was going to show up and need to freely move in and out of the Maw to maintain the Shadowlands.

No. Not only do the Automata have no idea what the maw was until they invaded the sepulcher, we see the Eternal Ones create the maw as a reaction to Zovaal abandoning the First One's directives. Korthia is there but the knowledge hidden within was stuff nobody was ever supposed to find, all things the characters explicitly tell the player. They ended up creating a situation that threated the destruction of the First Ones' design entirely. That's the entire premise of the story. We're never given a direct explanation to how a waystone ended up in the maw but it was implicitly the result of first one's ruins drifting near the maw or the Maw being created out of an out-of-bounds area to get rid of Zovaal. The creation of the maw is the equivalent of turning a derelict mall into a sweatshop.

[Joshuaj]

His entire goal was to destroy the pattern & the cosmic order entirely. That's emphatically not part of the cosmic order. Yes, the void fights the light & order fights disorder, but death is only supposed to put an end to life, not steal the key to the Sepulcher & try to remake the universe.No. Not only do the Automata have no idea what the maw was until they invaded the sepulcher, we see the Eternal Ones create the maw as a reaction to Zovaal abandoning the First One's directives. Korthia is there but the knowledge hidden within was stuff nobody was ever supposed to find, all things the characters explicitly tell the player. They ended up creating a situation that threated the destruction of the First Ones' design entirely. That's the entire premise of the story. We're never given a direct explanation to how a waystone ended up in the maw but it was implicitly the result of first one's ruins drifting near the maw or the Maw being created out of an out-of-bounds area to get rid of Zovaal. The creation of the maw is the equivalent of turning a derelict mall into a sweatshop.

He was gonna unmake the Cosmos and remake it with Death at the fore. It was less him destroying the pattern, and more-so him reworking it.

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It isn't though? Its entire existence is a the will of the Arbiter. Nothing about the SL is organic. It was a series of afterlives created by articially printed Eternal Ones and their fake dimensions. Everything about the SL is fake and created by the First Ones who are also fakes.

It's existence is ruled by the Pantheon of Death. Also, the Afterlives are "organic" in the sense they're fueled by the energies of Death. The Pantheon of Death ain't really made from vessels outside of the Arbiter, as Denathrius can lose his physical form, yet it doesn't become an automa, and his essence is still able to do shit, though it requires a vessel to thrive (hence why he went into his sword).

The Afterlives were not made by the Eternal Ones either, they were made by the Forge of Afterlives.