Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Limayria]

To add onto this, we know the Eternal Ones are robots who look to be powered by magic that looks suspiciously like the Order magic we’ve seen in DF.
We know (via Argus) that not even the Titans were robots like how we’ve seen the Eternal Ones.

It is weird to me that the “infinite shadowlands” were ruled by 5 of those said robots who never really meddled in any of the other realms outside of the main 4. (5 if you count Oribos I guess)

also we were told in TLT we will be uncovering a vast titan conspiracy, theres no way thats the stuff about the titans trapping azeorth's soul as hints about that have been coming for years and years at this point and is Very heavily talked about in TWW, I think we're gonna learn that the titans are just as antagonistic as the burning crusade

even when we look at the idea of "the grand design" is literally an order aligned concept everything having it's place and role to fullfill in an outline

never mind the fact that Rygelon managed to just waltz into zereith mortis or that domination magic is basically "Death + order" in terms of its effects

we're also probably going to get the connection between life and void explored more fully or at least i hope, to help explain why sargey and the burning crusade needed to kill all life instead of just all the world souls

[Cheezits]

Yeah if the conspiracy is just "lol they trapped Azeroth and forcefed her titan magic" that will be a little disappointing, as it's obvious. Even the average player, I think.

Shadowlands and Dream being Titan meddling creations confirmation? That's juicy.

[Joshuaj]

Quite the reach for her to have created the Prime Naaru if she is a Life Goddess.


But if we use that logic then Elune would be an Eternal One and not a life goddess.
The Titans call each other Brother/Sister.

Outside of Khadgar's theory, nothing says she created the Prime Naaru. At best, she has an inherent link with Xe'ra, especially since the Tears of Elune activates Light's Heart.

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Yeah if the conspiracy is just "lol they trapped Azeroth and forcefed her titan magic" that will be a little disappointing, as it's obvious. Even the average player, I think.

It might be obvious to the players, but it's not obvious to the folks in the lore.

[Dvalin]

I've already made my point how recent lore supports 'the First Ones are different than Titans' bit and probably created the first few Titans (or at least Aman'thul), or that Elune is indeed from the Pantheon of Life. But let's just agree to disagree on all of this. I'm done discussing it, and it's leading us nowhere in this thread.

[Joshuaj]

Elune is more directly connected to light, void, and arcane than life lol

And the parts of the realms of life the winter queen is connected to is seemingly the emerald dream, maybe Elune has influence their because of her romance with Eonar?? Which btw the Dream isn't a real part of the realm of life it's a titan created facsimile

I wonder why the titan facsimile is connected to the part of the shadowlands we saw lolll specifically the part where we met characters talking about existing there before the "eternal ones" almost like the point of Marasmius is pointing out the eternal ones are a lie

You mistake the fact that the Dream was seemingly not actually created by the Titans, and that there's more to the Dream beyond the Titan affected stuff.

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It's entirely possible the Titans took part of the Dream and experimented with it.

[Nightshade711]

Sure... if it wasn't for the fact we got direct information about the nature of their respective roles from them there. Velen is still a third party guessing based on superficial similarities about a topic he's not exactly an expert on. So no, his statement is not in fact worth more. At best, it's slightly better than some random nobody.

I’d imagine one of the experts on the nature of the Light would know what he’s talking about when he says something is similar to what he’s experienced with the light.

[Joshuaj]

Also, what Titan Facsimile? Did you mean Titan Facility? Cause there is none in the Shadowlands...

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I’d imagine one of the experts on the nature of the Light would know what he’s talking about when he says something is similar to what he’s experienced with the light.

Acting like he knows more about Elune than Elune's Chosen Priestess is insane to me ngl...

[Nightshade711]

You mistake the fact that the Dream was seemingly not actually created by the Titans, and that there's more to the Dream beyond the Titan affected stuff.

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It's entirely possible the Titans took part of the Dream and experimented with it.

I mean if anything that helps draw a parallel.
There’s more to the Shadowlands beyond just what we’ve seen with the careful (ordered?) structure of the Shadowlands and the Eternal Ones.

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Also, what Titan Facsimile? Did you mean Titan Facility? Cause there is none in the Shadowlands...

If the theory that the Titans ordered the Shadowlands and made the myth of the First Ones that would make Zereth Mortis a Titan installation.

Would make sense, why else would a Constellar so easily be able to go into Zereth Mortis to “observe”?
I wonder where else we’ve seen other Constellars being sent to Observe something…

Acting like he knows more about Elune than Elune's Chosen Priestess is insane to me ngl...

I don’t recall a point where Tyrande ever said “Hey guys Elune is a life goddess!!”

[Limayria]

I mean if anything that helps draw a parallel.
There’s more to the Shadowlands beyond just what we’ve seen with the careful (ordered?) structure of the Shadowlands and the Eternal Ones.

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If the theory that the Titans ordered the Shadowlands and made the myth of the First Ones that would make Zereth Mortis a Titan installation.

Would make sense, why else would a Constellar so easily be able to go into Zereth Mortis to “observe”?
I wonder where else we’ve seen other Constellars being sent to Observe something…





I don’t recall a point where Tyrande ever said “Hey guys Elune is a life goddess!!”

never mind the fact the machines the jailer was tapping into that were connected to azeorth were titan machines build by titans when they ordered azeorth

[Thomir]

Could be that Elune is a Light and Life goddess. And An'she could be a Fire and Light aka Sacred Flame god. Refer to the Arathi cosmology chart, which establishes areas of overlap between the cosmological forces. Beings like Elune could inhabit these areas.

[Joshuaj]

I mean if anything that helps draw a parallel.
There’s more to the Shadowlands beyond just what we’ve seen with the careful (ordered?) structure of the Shadowlands and the Eternal Ones.

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If the theory that the Titans ordered the Shadowlands and made the myth of the First Ones that would make Zereth Mortis a Titan installation.

Would make sense, why else would a Constellar so easily be able to go into Zereth Mortis to “observe”?
I wonder where else we’ve seen other Constellars being sent to Observe something…





I don’t recall a point where Tyrande ever said “Hey guys Elune is a life goddess!!”

1. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Death, Light, and Order are powers of Rhythm and Structure. That's literally how it is. Also, Order affects the cosmos in a ton of ways, even with forces that aren't inherently structured. Look at the Black Empire, or the fact there is a cycle of Life and Death, etc. Order's influence on the cosmos spans a lot of areas.

2. Maybe not all constellar's are bound to the Titans? Maybe one of the First Ones appointed Rygelon to observe the Zereths when needed?

3. Why would the Titans have to make up the First Ones when, once again, their entire motto is that they take credit for things upfront, especially creation?

And 4. Doesn't Khadgar say the Night Elves praise Elune as a Life goddess? Also, Tyrande does call her the Moon Goddess and everything, but she also saw the powers at play within Ardenweald, and she knows about Elune's power upfront VIA being the Night Warrior and serving as Elune's Avatar in the creation of the Amirdrassil Worldseed. So...yeah.

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Could be that Elune is a Light and Life goddess. And An'she could be a Fire and Light aka Sacred Flame god. Refer to the Arathi cosmology chart, which establishes areas of overlap between the cosmological forces. Beings like Elune could inhabit these areas.

You can be a god or goddess of a specific force and still have the abilities of other powers. You literally have a Titan PFP, you should know this...

[Nightshade711]

1. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Death, Light, and Order are powers of Rhythm and Structure. That's literally how it is. Also, Order affects the cosmos in a ton of ways, even with forces that aren't inherently structured. Look at the Black Empire, or the fact there is a cycle of Life and Death, etc. Order's influence on the cosmos spans a lot of areas.

That is cool and all, but there was a distinct time in the Shadowlands BEFORE the Eternal Ones & the structure.
Almost as if somebody came in and ordered it.

Wonder who has shown a history of going into other realms to bring order to it. I wonder if that realm is also connected to the now structured realm of death.

Maybe not all constellar's are bound to the Titans? Maybe one of the First Ones appointed Rygelon to observe the Zereths when needed?

Maybe, but we’ve got nothing to suggest that.

3. Why would the Titans have to make up the First Ones when, once again, their entire motto is that they take credit for things upfront, especially creation?

I mean, that’s not always the case.
The Orcs didn’t know they descended from Titan creations. I don’t think there are even any Titan facilities or anything close to it on Draenor of the Titans “taking credit.”

Doesn't Khadgar say the Night Elves praise Elune as a Life goddess? Also, Tyrande does call her the Moon Goddess and everything, but she also saw the powers at play within Ardenweald, and she knows about Elune's power upfront VIA being the Night Warrior and serving as Elune's Avatar in the creation of the Amirdrassil Worldseed. So...yeahs

I don’t recall Khadgar saying that.
“Moon Goddess” ≠ Life Goddess.

Also weird how they talk about the “LIGHT” of Elune a lot.

You can be a god or goddess of a specific force and still have the abilities of other powers. You literally have a Titan PFP, you should know this...

So she could be a Light Goddess who also has the powers of life.
Would make sense, why would a Life Goddess create the Prime Naaru who was one of the first Naaru created?

[Cheezits]

As much as I like the idea of N'zoth/OG Sylvanas/Zovaal being secretly justified, I do wonder how the fanbase will take it.

I guess their minions killed enough innocent people to justify killing them?

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The Titans being behind the Emerald Dream and the Shadowlands would be such a juicy TLT reveal, I agree.

Aman'thul:

1. Sees the future, realises everything is doomed and/or bound for chaos unless he goes to extreme lengths to protect his vision for the cosmos.
2. Works tirelessly to find the ideal timeline.
3. Literally goes back to the dawn of history to make sure the Emerald Dream and Shadowlands work the way they do.
4. Install Titan puppets like the Winter Queen and feed everybody false narrativs about the origins of the universe, to give them a sense of purpose. Like they gave Archaedas fake information about tbe Beledar being Azerite goo.

Meanwhile, characters like N'Zoth, Sylvanas, the Jailer, Elune and perhaps An'she have all sought to find another way forward (for better or worse; to escape the inevitable fate of all).

Since Shadowlands I have teased the idea that them being the FIRST Ones would end up being a nod to them being related to time travel. An Aman'thul timeloop would make a lot of sense, and would require the level of secrecy that was hinted at by Odyn ordering everyone not to talk about them/hide them. Also considering the Primus likely knows and/or is perpetuating the lie, it would explain why he

A)Knows so much about the First Ones
B)Has "memories" (the gameplay items) of the Titans

Also, the sheer realization of the Titan's extent of universe fuckery may have been what drove Murozond to insanity.

[Nightshade711]

Since Shadowlands I have teased the idea that them being the FIRST Ones would end up being a nod to them being related to time travel. An Aman'thul timeloop would make a lot of sense.

Also, the sheer realization of the Titan's extent of universe fuckery may have been what drove Murozond to insanity.

I’d love if they brought back the proper Murozond storyline.
The one in DF was a travesty & basically went against everything that was previously set up for him.

But the real Murozond going crazy due to what he’s seen the Titans do makes perfect sense… given what he says when we kill him

You know not what you have done. Aman'Thul... What I... have... seen...

[Dvalin]

I’d imagine one of the experts on the nature of the Light would know what he’s talking about when he says something is similar to what he’s experienced with the light.

This statement/quote has been slightly altered in the fourth issue of Chronicles.

[Wyrt]

Elune's magic being arcane damage was always the dumbest thing. I know they originally did it just for spell resist/lockout reasons, but they went and made it lore for some reason.

It completely undermines the whole night elves banning arcane magic thing. They wouldn't ban the magic of their goddess, it makes no sense.

[Dvalin]

By the way, regarding the connection between X'era and Elune:
According to Chronicles 4: The 'Elune created the Naaru' mention by Khadgar in the Light's Heart questline has been altered to 'X'era and Elune may have shared a celestial connection'. Which could very well mean both have sprung from (in)direct creation by the First Ones.

[Cheezits]

By the way, regarding the connection between X'era and Elune:
According to Chronicles 4: The 'Elune created the Naaru' mention by Khadgar in the Light's Heart questline has been altered to 'X'era and Elune may have shared a celestial connection'. Which could very well mean both have sprung from (in)direct creation by the First Ones.

Or, Elune got her solar powers by working with Xe'ra and/or Xe'ras boss (because I really doubt that windchime that got oneshot is the strongest god of light).

Elune works with Eonar in Order, Winter Queen in Death, and Xe'ra/others in Light. I wonder if Xal is connected to her someone for Void/Darkness powers?

I doubt she works with Fel at all... but the Grell DO exist...

I wouldn't be too surprised if her true form has many arms to point at how extended she is actors the universe. Maybe she's a spider? That would explain the ghost spider from Zereth Mortis at least.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider_Grandmother

This is the mythology I was thinking about. Wizard101 also did a riff on it.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Shade_of_Irik-tu

Firim also asked about the origin of the mortal realm, to which Irik-tu explained that their people believed in a thousand-legged god whose eggs had brought forth all of existence. Firim privately dismissed this as nothing more than a superstitious fable and bid Irik-tu good journeys.[1]

[Joshuaj]

That is cool and all, but there was a distinct time in the Shadowlands BEFORE the Eternal Ones & the structure.
Almost as if somebody came in and ordered it.

Wonder who has shown a history of going into other realms to bring order to it. I wonder if that realm is also connected to the now structured realm of death.


Maybe, but we’ve got nothing to suggest that.


I mean, that’s not always the case.
The Orcs didn’t know they descended from Titan creations. I don’t think there are even any Titan facilities or anything close to it on Draenor of the Titans “taking credit.”


I don’t recall Khadgar saying that.
“Moon Goddess” ≠ Life Goddess.

Also weird how they talk about the “LIGHT” of Elune a lot.


So she could be a Light Goddess who also has the powers of life.
Would make sense, why would a Life Goddess create the Prime Naaru who was one of the first Naaru created?

We know Marasmus was there before the Winter Queen appeared. This implies Ardenweald existed before her. Wanna know what that means? Nothing Titan related. That just means the First Ones made the realms first, then placed the pantheon members there.

"The Orcs didn’t know they descended from Titan creations. I don’t think there are even any Titan facilities or anything close to it on Draenor of the Titans “taking credit.”"

Aggramar didn't need to add any facilities tbf. He used his own power to make the Grond and whatnot.

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Also, the fact Chronicle talks about that means the mortals know Aggramar influenced Draenor.

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Or, Elune got her solar powers by working with Xe'ra and/or Xe'ras boss (because I really doubt that windchime that got oneshot is the strongest god of light).

Elune works with Eonar in Order, Winter Queen in Death, and Xe'ra/others in Light. I wonder if Xal is connected to her someone for Void/Darkness powers?

I doubt she works with Fel at all... but the Grell DO exist...

I wouldn't be too surprised if her true form has many arms to point at how extended she is actors the universe. Maybe she's a spider? That would explain the ghost spider from Zereth Mortis at least.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider_Grandmother

This is the mythology I was thinking about. Wizard101 also did a riff on it.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Shade_of_Irik-tu

Firim also asked about the origin of the mortal realm, to which Irik-tu explained that their people believed in a thousand-legged god whose eggs had brought forth all of existence. Firim privately dismissed this as nothing more than a superstitious fable and bid Irik-tu good journeys.[1]

Been saying this for the longest time, but it is possible the Naaru serve as host bodies for the Lords of Light.

[Nightshade711]

We know Marasmus was there before the Winter Queen appeared. This implies Ardenweald existed before her. Wanna know what that means? Nothing Titan related. That just means the First Ones made the realms first, then placed the pantheon members there.

If that were the case they probably woulda just made the Winter Queen first so she could get to work day 1.

Makes more sense that she was created and sent in to order Ardenweald/bring it into the titans vision/system of Ardenweald -> Emerald Dream.