Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Mecheon]

Not an argument, she's clearly set up to be an important character going forward based on her appearance in cinematics, status and name alone.

You're whining about a secondary character

I said some of the worst. Just because there is stuff that is even worse than that, doesn't excuse the bad writing.

And yet you specifically brought Faerin out instead of any others. Little suspicious.

So your argument is that a young, inexperienced character is more qualified here than an old, experienced, veteran one, arguably the light guy himself, and someone that Anduin knows personally?

Someone in a similar life span to Anduin is more relevant to talk about his relationship to religion than a character so old he pre-dates Anduin's entire species, yes

Again, not an argument. Just like people, one doesn't make a 180 on their beliefs just because they aged from 60 to 80. Time changes certain things about people, but not everything.

He literately has a cutscene where he's shown to be old and jaded about everything, compared with the excited Faerin who's going off stories, only for her view of Arathi to be crushed as the quests progress. Its the one where they're at the wall.

Its a cutscene even so you can't act like a Limbus Company player and say you don't read.

Quests like those resonate with people because they're taken from real life events, so someone is bound to feel a certain way towards them. My main criticism is aimed at the main story of WoW and how it's written, not side quests.

Then why are you complaining about Faerin and a 11.1.7 side quest? That isn't part of the main story. You won't have to do it.

Well, there it is. Coveniently dismissing every point as shallow 'hate'. Not surprised to be honest.

You're the one that decided to sound like your average 4chan poster.

[huth]

So your argument is that a young, inexperienced character is more qualified here than an old, experienced, veteran one, arguably the light guy himself, and someone that Anduin knows personally? How does that make any sense?

In something like this? Very easily. You don't know anything about psychology, do you?

[Mecheon]

Crystal? What Crystal?

Its possible that beledar was never planned to be a central plot point in this expansion. Maybe it was always planned as a setup to be resolved in the last titan as part of the "titan conspiracy" or later in midnight or sometime else. I think we are a little too hung up on the idea that we have to know by the end of tww what it is and why it changes from light to void.

I've seen an early beta map image (from when they were designing the zone) that flat out called Beledar "naaru crystal", so that was at least the original plan for it

[Timester]

Guys, it's time to think like Metzen. The WorldSoul Saga is a Titan Saga that uses concepts that were there for the War Within and split for 3 xpacs. Metzen said it in his interview a year ago, now confirmed, he is much very a "I love what you guys are doing, but... let's do things this way."

Rootlands now could be a concept used in The Last Titan, much like the Worldcore. Metzen CLEARLY changed this xpac to be Xal's prologue of creating Midnight, right now we are just chasing her and cleaning up after her. Heck, they showing us the original Xal-N'zoth deal pretty tells us this is all about Xal.

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So your argument is that a young, inexperienced character is more qualified here than an old, experienced, veteran one, arguably the light guy himself, and someone that Anduin knows personally? How does that make any sense?

Maybe because the guy with more psychological trauma in WoW history perhaps reached to the point "yeah, guys, fuck it all, just leave me alone on my cave..."?

It's not Faerin that makes Anduin reconnecting to the Light, it's Anduin own travel and adventure. Faerin just happened to be part of it.

[shooketh]

You're whining about a secondary character


And yet you specifically brought Faerin out instead of any others. Little suspicious.

Who else is there, that's new and prominent? Nobody. Some of them are so irrelevant it hurts. What is Thrall even doing there? Or Turalyon?

Someone in a similar life span to Anduin is more relevant to talk about his relationship to religion than a character so old he pre-dates Anduin's entire species, yes

Wow, ok, you're actually doubling down on this. You know, if I were to have an issue, asking a person younger than me for advice would be the last thing on my mind, especially on topics like faith or religion. Didn't we all learn as kids to listen to our elders?

He literately has a cutscene where he's shown to be old and jaded about everything, compared with the excited Faerin who's going off stories, only for her view of Arathi to be crushed as the quests progress. Its the one where they're at the wall.

Its a cutscene even so you can't act like a Limbus Company player and say you don't read.

The one where he's all apologetic and denounces everything he stands for because it might forment 'Stromic superiority'?

Then why are you complaining about Faerin and a 11.1.7 side quest? That isn't part of the main story. You won't have to do it.

How do you even know that it's a side quest? That's just baseless speculation, you have no idea where this will lead to.

You're the one that decided to sound like your average 4chan poster.

Oh, damn, I'm sorry that I don't dance around words and say what I mean.

[Ersula]

Crystal? What Crystal?

Its possible that beledar was never planned to be a central plot point in this expansion. Maybe it was always planned as a setup to be resolved in the last titan as part of the "titan conspiracy" or later in midnight or sometime else. I think we are a little too hung up on the idea that we have to know by the end of tww what it is and why it changes from light to void.

Or perhaps it was just a zone gimmick. They already explained what Beledar is; a crystal formation created by the worldsoul's defense mechanism. Anything else is just people reading into mundane details.

[Black Rider]

Long time lurker, first time poster - I do enjoy what some of you post on here, but I'll get straight to the point - wall of text incoming

TWW, story wise, is just as boring as Dragonflight. It follows the exact same sappy, cheesy, safe, bland, boring, sanitized formula as Dragonflight. Everything that made WoW characters or races unique is being sanded down to avoid any potential controversy coming from the overly sensitive modern audience, that doesn't really even exist, except on twitter and various other small corners of the internet.

Every character which is not a clear antagonist now falls into the same mold and ideological paradigm - morally righteous, apologetic, soft, sensitive, sentimental, tolerant, and they feel more like vessels for the writers to practice moral grandstanding on players rather than fleshed out characters with their own beliefs, traits, personalities, grievances, prejudices and part of a fictional world shaped by wars and conflict. Cheap virtue signaling at every step, gone is the era of strong, unique, resolute characters with unwavering conviction. Power of friendship, councils (even Undermine ends with a council), let's all forget the past and all the deep hatreds that run between these characters or races and everything that made them stand out (hello Forsaken!) and all their differences and just write everyone the same while holding hands around the giant bonfire as we all must 'do better'.

It's boring. It's played out. It's not Warcraft. Who finds this stuff appealing? Who are they even writing for at this point? Themselves and their orbiters on twitter? Fine, but if they continue, then they'll be only ones left interested in this giant, boring soap opera.

Also, does anyone here actually like Faerin? I'll be honest I didn't have any big issues with her until 11.1.7 was revealed (even though Anduin could've has asked, you know, Velen, his buddy, for help regarding his connection to the light, but for some reason only Faerin, this character that seemingly comes out of nowhere and which apparently has deep lore implications, could do it), when for some reason she shows up in Arathi Highlands just so Danath can bend a knee to her. Are you kidding me? Danath? Danath TROLLBANE? This grizzled out war veteran is suddenly doing a 180 on his character and many of the things he stands for because of a newly introduced, morally righteous Mary Sue who can do no wrong and is also missing one arm but also leads an army against the Nerubians but also has the time to run an orphanage and read children's stories and is also able to magically solve everyone's problems but is also able to get involved in issues that are out of her scope or topics she knows little or nothing about and make old, established characters do a 180 on their beliefs? Come on.

We need to stop dancing around these issues and put the blame where it lies, if we want things to get better.

Who writes this stuff? And for who? Players pointed out in advance how Faerin would be the driving force behind some of the worst writing to come and they were all dismissed as racists or sexists (unfortunately, some of them really were). Well, here we are now, close to 11.1.7, and the players were proven right, because from the moment she was revealed, most people knew what was coming. She will be the morally righteous character who can do no wrong and lecture the 'problematic' ones about how bad they or their actions/beliefs are and how she's just so good and perfect at everything. And let's not forget that this is Blizzard, by the way. This cheap corporate tactic of slapping as many criticism shields on a character is as old as time. Don't tell me for a second that the various aspects of her appeareance were not a deliberate choice by Blizzard so any criticism for the awful writing can be dismissed as cheap -isms. They don't really add anything otherwise. And they're all conveniently piled onto this one single character.

Rant over. So far I'm very disillusioned with this direction. We were promised by Metzen a return to what made Warcraft great, a return to the rule of cool, but so far it's still Dragonflight with another skin, equally boring and sappy. Also, what happened to the old concept of 'show, don't tell'?
This isn't Warcraft, and it's no wonder that each cinematic, each trailer, each storyline has less and less views and general interest than the previous one because they're writing for an audience that simply doesn't exist. This style of writing is clearly not for Warcraft fans. Everyone was using Danuser as the scapegoat for the terrible writing, but it seems that the issue runs much more deeper than that. The questions is - who is to blame? Who is writing this stuff and at whose direction, and is it even fixable at this point? Or is this what Warcraft will be going forward?

It's really sad that it's far more exciting to speculate, and I've read more cool ideas from everyday players, than to follow whatever Blizzard is currently writing.

Anyway, what are your thoughts?

You’re spot-on that TWW’s narrative feels like a continuation of Dragonflight’s safe, sappy tone. The “power of friendship” vibe, councils galore (Undermine’s council is a groaner), and morally righteous characters who all blend into the same mold tolerant, apologetic, conflict-averse don’t feel like the Warcraft we grew up with. The game’s roots were in a gritty, war-torn world where factions had deep-seated grudges, races had distinct identities, and characters were flawed, complex, and sometimes unapologetically brutal. Think of the Forsaken’s moral ambiguity under Sylvanas or the Horde’s internal struggles in Cataclysm. Those felt alive, grounded in a world shaped by conflict.
Now, it’s like Blizzard is sanding down anything that could be “problematic.” The Forsaken, once defined by their bitterness and defiance, are softened into generic redemption arcs. Racial tensions like the night elves’ hatred for the orcs post-Teldrassil are glossed over for kumbaya moments. This isn’t just a storytelling shift. it’s a betrayal of the lore’s depth. Warcraft thrived on morally gray characters with convictions, not cookie-cutter heroes preaching unity. You’re right: it’s boring, and it’s not Warcraft.

[Joshuaj]

Guys, it's time to think like Metzen. The WorldSoul Saga is a Titan Saga that uses concepts that were there for the War Within and split for 3 xpacs. Metzen said it in his interview a year ago, now confirmed, he is much very a "I love what you guys are doing, but... let's do things this way."

Rootlands now could be a concept used in The Last Titan, much like the Worldcore. Metzen CLEARLY changed this xpac to be Xal's prologue of creating Midnight, right now we are just chasing her and cleaning up after her. Heck, they showing us the original Xal-N'zoth deal pretty tells us this is all about Xal.

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Maybe because the guy with more psychological trauma in WoW history perhaps reached to the point "yeah, guys, fuck it all, just leave me alone on my cave..."?

It's not Faerin that makes Anduin reconnecting to the Light, it's Anduin own travel and adventure. Faerin just happened to be part of it.

Xal'atath sucks. Lemme fight Dimensius in Midnight.

[shooketh]

Metzen said it in his interview a year ago, now confirmed, he is much very a "I love what you guys are doing, but... let's do things this way."

I'm personally not seeing it. TWW is just more Dragonflight storytelling, a far cry from MoP-WoD-Legion days.

It's not Faerin that makes Anduin reconnecting to the Light

What? That's basically his entire arc in Hallowfall.

[Timester]

The one where he's all apologetic and denounces everything he stands for because it might forment 'Stromic superiority'?

Since when Danath Trollbane was a racist?

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Xal'atath sucks. Lemme fight Dimensius in Midnight.

Well, that's exactly the point, Xal isn't the Final Boss. She is the Harbinger, the field agent making coups and deals for her boss.

[shooketh]

Since when Danath Trollbane was a racist?

It's in his name. He spent his entire lifetime fighting orcs and ogres, and even went through the dark portal to do it. He was an overseer of orcish internment camps. You can't wash these things away in a single patch. It's simply bad writing.

[Mecheon]

Who else is there, that's new and prominent? Nobody. Some of them are so irrelevant it hurts. What is Thrall even doing there? Or Turalyon?

Thrall's off doing something else. Turalyon's off in Stormwind because this isn't a matter that concerns him and they can't just run over and handle every problem in the world. Because, y'know, running over and handling every problem is. oh wait that's a Mary Sue thing. Instead we got Faerin who hasn't done anything since Launch, wasn't involved with the Arathi's other big expedition on Siren Isle, and expressed interest in checking out the other human civilisations.

speaking of mary sues, let's not forget the whole Cata Thrall incident. Go'el was a meme for a reason and if you want a Mary Sue example Thrall was absolutely top of that pile

Wow, ok, you're actually doubling down on this. You know, if I were to have an issue, asking a person younger than me for advice would be the last thing on my mind. Didn't we all learn as kids to listen to our elders?

There's 'elders' and then there's 'velen you are literately older than most civilisations on this planet, of similar lifespan to the dragons. In your life you have seen stars form and planets die, mountains rise and be ground to dust by erosion'

Velen is perhaps not the most appropriate person to speak to because someone 10,000 years old is going to not relate to the problems of a 30 year old. Velen is useless to this situation. Regardless though it was Anduin's quest that helped him recalim the light and the struggles he went through with support, not just talking to Velen. Talking to Velen would have done sweet F.A., because with Faerin, Anduin came to understand the Light again whereas with Velen all he'd understand is city planning while he works on New Draenei City

The one where he's all apologetic and denounces everything he stands for because it might forment 'Stromic superiority'?

You can go back to the Hallowfall questing experience and bring up the point where Anduin's talking about fallen human civilisations, its part of the expansion theme and setting us up to eventually visit the Arathi kingdom. Stormgarde has long since fallen and there was nothing Danath could have done about it, being on Outland as he was.

How do you even know that it's a side quest? That's just baseless speculation, you have no idea where this will lead to.

Because you can download the PTR and play it right now, showing that its a side quest. Just like the tauren quest in Dragonflight, or the Gilneas questline, or the blue dragonflight quest line.

You probably want to do it for the achievement but 11.2's storyline won't require it. Heck, 11.1 doesn't even need the Orweyna sidequest done despite that blatantly leading into 11.1

Oh, damn, I'm sorry that I don't dance around words and say what I mean.

That's nice, tourist. Go back and read the quests before complaining about things not feeling Warcraft-y.

[shooketh]

You’re spot-on that TWW’s narrative feels like a continuation of Dragonflight’s safe, sappy tone. The “power of friendship” vibe, councils galore (Undermine’s council is a groaner), and morally righteous characters who all blend into the same mold tolerant, apologetic, conflict-averse don’t feel like the Warcraft we grew up with. The game’s roots were in a gritty, war-torn world where factions had deep-seated grudges, races had distinct identities, and characters were flawed, complex, and sometimes unapologetically brutal. Think of the Forsaken’s moral ambiguity under Sylvanas or the Horde’s internal struggles in Cataclysm. Those felt alive, grounded in a world shaped by conflict.
Now, it’s like Blizzard is sanding down anything that could be “problematic.” The Forsaken, once defined by their bitterness and defiance, are softened into generic redemption arcs. Racial tensions like the night elves’ hatred for the orcs post-Teldrassil are glossed over for kumbaya moments. This isn’t just a storytelling shift. it’s a betrayal of the lore’s depth. Warcraft thrived on morally gray characters with convictions, not cookie-cutter heroes preaching unity. You’re right: it’s boring, and it’s not Warcraft.

Well, I'm glad I'm not the only one that sees these things. The forsaken used to be this crazy bunch that used to capture humans for their experiments and other nasty, creepy stuff so they could continue to live on and survive since they can't reproduce, and these things were so cool to me, and made them stand out on their own, and that's what made me roll a forsaken as my first character. A forsaken mage.

Now they're just another race like everyone else, and everything that is considered 'morally bad' by the writers is seen as something to be corrected, in a very heavy handed way. That's why they introduced Calia, and the writers now avoid writing anything about them that could be seen as 'problematic'.

[Timester]

I'm personally not seeing it. TWW is just more Dragonflight storytelling, a far cry from MoP-WoD-Legion days.

It was blantly told. Yes, TWW is just more Dragonfight storytelling because it's the same team writing it, we are just noticing now Metzen's changes. Undermine most likely was introduced because the course was changed. The Legacy of Arathor is a CONTINUATION OF METZEN'S short-story, just adding Faerin to the plot. We are seeing now it.

What? That's basically his entire arc in Hallowfall.

Of Anduin's own travel? Yes. He just happened to meet someone on his own personal travel that helped him reconnect to the Light. Faerin is a participant, not the cause.

It's in his name. He spent his entire lifetime fighting orcs and ogres, and even went through the dark portal to do it. He was an overseer of orcish internment camps. You can't wash these things away in a single patch. It's simply bad writing.

You know what a surname is, right? And that Danath's best friend is Alleria, a high elf, right?

[shooketh]

Thrall's off doing something else. Turalyon's off in Stormwind

Both of them are in Khaz Algar.

speaking of mary sues, let's not forget the whole Cata Thrall incident. Go'el was a meme for a reason and if you want a Mary Sue example Thrall was absolutely top of that pile

Again, just because there is worse writing, or other examples of bad writing, does not excuse the bad writing in this case. We were sold Worldsoul as a return to original Warcraft themes, and so far it's more of Dragonflight. Just boring, cliche, sappy, power of friendship and councils where everyone is nice and tolerant so nobody gets offended.

Velen is perhaps not the most appropriate person to speak to because someone 10,000 years old is going to not relate to the problems of a 30 year old.

The issue in question is Anduin's connection to the light. If your entire argument is that Velen, the light guy, a prophet, a priest, with deep and old ties to the light and the naaru is unfit here, then I genuinely do not know what to say.

Because you can download the PTR and play it right now, showing that its a side quest. Just like the tauren quest in Dragonflight, or the Gilneas questline, or the blue dragonflight quest line.

Where's the indication that it's a side quest? And not a tool to drive the plot further? Because from how the dialogue is ending, it clearly goes against what you're saying.

That's nice, tourist. Go back and read the quests before complaining about things not feeling Warcraft-y.

I probably played this game longer than you have. Clearly the current writing does not resonate with a large audience, and is seen in the views on trailers, cinematics, or discussions. If the main focus of this trilogy is storytelling, and nobody seems to care, then we have a problem.

[Timester]

Again, just because there is worse writing, or other examples of bad writing, does not excuse the bad writing in this case. We were sold Worldsoul as a return to original Warcraft themes, and so far it's more of Dragonflight. Just boring, cliche, sappy, power of friendship and councils where everyone is nice and tolerant so nobody gets offended.

What original Warcraft themes? The ones written by Metzen with Blood and Honor and Warcraft III? Remember how those ended?

Both of them are in Khaz Algar.

See, no, they weren't. Thrall was in Arathi, ambushed and wounded by a poison arrow, stopping a Mag'har/Stromgarde war plotted by Marrin Trollbane.

Turalyon was on route to Khaz Algar, leading the forces.

[shooketh]

It was blantly told. Yes, TWW is just more Dragonfight storytelling

Then we were tricked because that's not what Metzen promised at Blizzcon.

You know what a surname is, right? And that Danath's best friend is Alleria, a high elf, right?

Yes. Alleria is also a famous orc slayer, since Warcraft 2 days actually

I said this:

He spent his entire lifetime fighting orcs and ogres, and even went through the dark portal to do it. He was an overseer of orcish internment camps. You can't wash these things away in a single patch. It's simply bad writing.

So I don't see the point you're trying to make.

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What original Warcraft themes? The ones written by Metzen with Blood and Honor and Warcraft III? Remember how those ended?

Replay MoP, WoD or Legion storylines, watch the cinematics, then do Dragonflight or TWW, and you'll immediately see what I mean. There's a reason why 'Rejection of the Gift' has almos 6 million views, almost as much as a cinematic for a new expansion nowadays.

And please don't try to imply that Warcraft III is somehow a bad story. It's what got most of us into WoW, and gave us all these legendary characters that they keep milking 20 years later.

The only modern character that the new writers introduced and was liked, was Denathrius. That's 1 character in who knows how many years now.

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What original Warcraft themes? The ones written by Metzen with Blood and Honor and Warcraft III? Remember how those ended?



See, no, they weren't. Thrall was in Arathi, ambushed and wounded by a poison arrow, stopping a Mag'har/Stromgarde war plotted by Marrin Trollbane.

Turalyon was on route to Khaz Algar, leading the forces.

What's your point of reference? Because for a long time, Thrall was just chilling with Anduin on the hills of Khaz Algar. It kind of also became a meme how irrelevant Thrall was to the entire plot.

And Turalyon was right there in Dornogal next to Alleria. They even have a short dialogue. Equally irrelvant.

[Timester]

Then we were tricked because that's not what Metzen promised at Blizzcon.

You are skipping the part that they blantly said "Metzen came in and split our story".

Yes. Alleria is also a famous orc slayer, since Warcraft 2 days actually

You skipped any entire shortstory:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5C32Ygj3Vk

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What's your point of reference? Because for a long time, Thrall was just chilling with Anduin on the hills of Khaz Algar. It kind of also became a meme how irrelevant Thrall was to the entire plot.

And Turalyon was right there in Dornogal next to Alleria. They even have a short dialogue. Equally irrelvant.

Wrong, you skipped the entire Heartlands story.

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Replay MoP, WoD or Legion storylines, watch the cinematics, then do Dragonflight or TWW, and you'll immediately see what I mean. There's a reason why 'Rejection of the Gift' has almos 6 million views, almost as much as a cinematic for a new expansion nowadays.

And please don't try to imply that Warcraft III is somehow a bad story. It's what got most of us into WoW, and gave us all these legendary characters that they keep milking 20 years later.

The only modern character that the new writers introduced and was liked, was Denathrius. That's 1 character in who knows how many years now.

So you moved goalposts, because original didn't started with MoP. And funny that you mention MoP, the one that the most vocal were "lol Pandas" "friendship sucks, why are we are fighting OUR WARCHIEF?". It's fun to see how time dilutes the perception.

[Mecheon]

Both of them are in Khaz Algar.

Then why should they be going off to Arathi if they're in Khaz Algar?

Again, just because there is worse writing, or other examples of bad writing, does not excuse the bad writing in this case. We were sold Worldsoul as a return to original Warcraft themes, and so far it's more of Dragonflight. Just boring, cliche, sappy, power of friendship and councils where everyone is nice and tolerant so nobody gets offended.

Warcraft 3 is literately a story about how these, and the folks who are intolerant are shown as villains every single time. You didn't forget Garithos, right? Or Daelin?

A tense almost-war breaking out but heroes working together to stop it is literately the orc campaign from TFT. The only difference is this time Faerin convinces them to not kill the perpetrator so we don't get a repeat of "Kul Tiras goes to arrest us due to misunderstanding what we, as players, know from the WC3 campaign"

I'm sorry if you don't like Warcraft 3, the Frozen Throne, but uh, that's probably what they were looking at for classic Warcraft stuff

The issue in question is Anduin's connection to the light. If your entire argument is that Velen, the light guy, a prophet, a priest, with deep and old ties to the light and the naaru is unfit here, then I genuinely do not know what to say.

Anduin's entire thing is over his guilt over the whole Shadowlands incident and enjoying not being in control, just letting the Jailer pull the reigns. Its the exact same storyline beat as Silverbolt from Transformers Beast Machines. Anduin had a connection to the Light the whole time, he just couldn't call on it due to that. This is like, a longstanding thing in the Warcraft series ever since Of Blood and Honour that someone's mental state has a massive impact if they can call upon the Light. Tirion still had access to the Light despite the whole excommunication thing, it just took him time and realisation to come to that.

Velen's knowledge of the Light really isn't going to help with that particular thing because Velen isn't exactly known for having experience in psychological healing of people who've been mind controlled by undead people against their will.

Where's the indication that it's a side quest? And not a tool to drive the plot further? Because from how the dialogue is ending, it clearly goes against what you're saying.

I mean, the fact it isn't relevant to the entire expansion as we know it and doesn't deal with Xal'atath or the Black Blood? There's a reason we're debating "Rootlands or K'aresh" in this thread and not "The Red Dawn are going to come back in patch 11.2", and that's because this is just a side story.

Now, if the Red Dawn had some Black Blood weapons and Xal showed up to them saying "Hey " then it'd be relevant but. That's not what happens. So its clearly a side story because, side stories popular

I probably played this game longer than you have. Clearly the current writing does not resonate with a large audience, and is seen in the views on trailers, cinematics, or discussions. If the main focus of this trilogy is storytelling, and nobody seems to care, then we have a problem.

You don't like TFT and don't even know the workings of the Light per Of Blood and Honour. I'm going to settle with 'tourist'.

[Black Rider]

Blizzard needs to hire bold Writers: Get storytellers who aren’t afraid to take risks, like the Wrath team did with Arthas’s tragic arc.