Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[milkmustache]

Honestly I think it may be as simple as "they don't think this theme can sustain a full expansion", as not even Undermine is really part of Khaz Algar and its story (though it is tied in fairly well). I can see them giving up on the initial concept where all three patches were underground.

Xal seems to be the thread between the patches, no more no less.

Sure, I agree there, but if we look at 8.3 as the example we're not really cutting it. Especially if 8.3 was a relatively meh patch, to blatantly repeat it? Old World zone, nonrevamped, and assumingly a black blood plot? That's Visions of N'Zoth all over again. It'd be a massive fall flat on their face. I think there needs to be a huge hook to the patch. Sorry if you're not implying the 8.3 similarities and I read into it wrong.

My heart still wants K'aresh as a cautionary tale of demise from the Void with a raid jumping between infighting Ethereals and Xal'atath through a floating ruins of Dalaran raid alongside the remaining Sons of Lothar. Atiesh legendary as well.

[Cheezits]

Sure, I agree there, but if we look at 8.3 as the example we're not really cutting it. Especially if 8.3 was a relatively meh patch, to blatantly repeat it? Old World zone, nonrevamped, and assumingly a black blood plot? That's Visions of N'Zoth all over again. It'd be a massive fall flat on their face. I think there needs to be a huge hook to the patch. Sorry if you're not implying the 8.3 similarities and I read into it wrong.

Oh yeah no I think 11.2 will feature a new area even if it's a revamped old world portion. The only connection to 8.3 is that it shows Blizz -will- pause a plot thread if they think it's beneficial to the game. This being the black blood.

I think this is much different than Sylvanas ditching as Sylvanas was the big focus of BFA compared to N'zoth- whereas I don't think there's as much of a connection with fans to the black blood.

- - - Updated - - -

It would be fun and wild if 11.2 is an invaded Silvermoon City that we clear out in time for 12.0.

[Limayria]

Why was the Elun'ahir book seemingly introduced after Metzen's return in Dragonflight. Wouldn't they at that point have known that they were changing TWW into the Worldsoul Saga? Does this suggest Elun'ahir is still in the plans sometime soon, or does it mean that Khaz Algar was initially just going to involve random tree roots before they decided to change it to being an actual world tree, to increase tensions for TLT's Titan showdown? So in essence, "Rootlands" got scrapped so they could instead expand that concept heading into TLT?

Probably just wanted to start seeding things more than one or two patches in advance so that it feels more organically part of the world

[Cheezits]

Why was the Elun'ahir book seemingly introduced after Metzen's return in Dragonflight. Wouldn't they at that point have known that they were changing TWW into the Worldsoul Saga? Does this suggest Elun'ahir is still in the plans sometime soon, or does it mean that Khaz Algar was initially just going to involve random tree roots before they decided to change it to being an actual world tree, to increase tensions for TLT's Titan showdown? So in essence, "Rootlands" got scrapped so they could instead expand that concept heading into TLT?

It was probably going to be visited in TWW (see: Orweyna in the intro) and we went to the worldcore early, but that idea got pushed back versus being fully scrapped.

[milkmustache]

Why was the Elun'ahir book seemingly introduced after Metzen's return in Dragonflight. Wouldn't they at that point have known that they were changing TWW into the Worldsoul Saga? Does this suggest Elun'ahir is still in the plans sometime soon, or does it mean that Khaz Algar was initially just going to involve random tree roots before they decided to change it to being an actual world tree, to increase tensions for TLT's Titan showdown? So in essence, "Rootlands" got scrapped so they could instead expand that concept heading into TLT?

I don't think it's completely scrapped, nor do I think Metzen's return would have had a say on it or not. I think he would've looked at it as good breadcrumbing and decided to leave it. The whole story of Elun'ahir is still great and could be used later down the line, the question that Metzen brought up with his return was "Can we do all this in a single expansion?". He likely saw Elun'ahir as something better to address down the line when we are possibly at odds with the Titans.

It's been suggested it could return in TLT, and I think that's pretty likely. It could even be connected to Harrowsdeep, Iridikron's lair. We really don't know, but the inclusion of the Haranir in TWW paints some importance, I think it's just a matter of finding out whether or not their story had time to be told right now.

[Cheezits]

It's been suggested it could return in TLT, and I think that's pretty likely. It could even be connected to Harrowsdeep, Iridikron's lair. We really don't know, but the inclusion of the Haranir in TWW paints some importance, I think it's just a matter of finding out whether or not their story had time to be told right now.

Oh, wow, seeing them next to each other like this makes me wonder if that's intentional prefixing by Blizz.

Iridikron being close to the Worldcore and perhaps Rootlands would explain why he knows what the Titans are up to.

[Houle]

Agreed here. Kel'thuzad's inclusion was an extremely deliberate choice. He'll be involved in the Scourge storylines in Midnight and TLT for sure.

Ya know, even tho reusing characters like this is usually terrible storytelling, i wouldnt be against bringing Kel'thuzad and Ner'zhul back.
SL shat so badly all over both of them, any excuse to bring them back would be better than what they got there. These 2 character deserved better, given their legacy and impact on the franchise. And it wouldnt even take much for them to make a comeback, given that they didnt even bother explaining at all how either of them got there in SL the first place.

->Yada yada, as an extra precaution, Kel'thuzad created that imprint of himself in the necklace so that he would swap places with it should his phylactery ever be destroyed.

->Yada yada, bc Ner'zhul was still bound to the pieces of the helmet (which wasnt fully destroyed) and the rest of the original LK armor, he wasnt really defeated for good when the players fought him, and then when the pieces of the helmet were fully reforged, he was sucked back to Azeroth into the rest of the original LK armor which Arthas had hidden away somewhere.

[milkmustache]

Oh, wow, seeing them next to each other like this makes me wonder if that's intentional prefixing by Blizz.

Iridikron being close to the Worldcore and perhaps Rootlands would explain why he knows what the Titans are up to.

I really, really think that Iridikron will get a partial Illidan treatment in TLT. He's perfectly set up for it. This idea could propel it even further, Harrowsdeep being a vast tunnel system, he would have the ability to interact with the Haranir at some point. I don't necessarily think Harrowsdeep and Haranir are tied together by name, but it's entirely possible.

I think if we were to see Iridikron explain how he was able to watch what the Titans were doing to the Worldcore from the tunnels of Harrowsdeep, not have the power to stop it, and in turn have to watch his kin be used for their experiments, we'd start to sympathize with him a bit more. He has all the makings for a great, great character. Set him up to kill a Titan the second the land on Azeroth, we fight him for the first raid tier until we realize he's right and the Titans may have misguided us.

Ya know, even tho reusing characters like this is usually terrible storytelling, i wouldnt be against bringing Kel'thuzad and Ner'zhul back.
SL shat so badly all over both of them, any excuse to bring them back would be better than what they got there. These 2 character deserved better, given their legacy and impact on the franchise. And it wouldnt even take much for them to make a comeback, given that they didnt even bother explaining at all how either of them got there in SL the first place.

->Yada yada, as an extra precaution, Kel'thuzad created that imprint of himself in the necklace so that he would swap places with it should his phylactery ever be destroyed.

->Yada yada, bc Ner'zhul was still bound to the pieces of the helmet (which wasnt fully destroyed) and the rest of the original LK armor, he wasnt really defeated for good when the players fought him, and then when the pieces of the helmet were fully reforged, he was sucked back to Azeroth into the rest of the original LK armor which Arthas had hidden away somewhere.

As resident half-of-Shadowlands hater, I'm all for bringing back any of the characters that had some unceremonious cameos. Both of your ideas are great.

There's also a nonzero chance we don't see some form of Arthas as well, I refuse to believe that they will stick with the Arthas soul fart ending from Shadowlands. Kael'thas is bound to be brought up in Midnight. Give me some form of Garrosh back.

But that being said, Kel'thuzad is most certainly going to be returning directly tied to the Scourge plots. I like this idea that he is this necromatic roach that cannot be killed, but keeps crawling his way back from various abysses to vye for power, constantly making routes to escape permanent death or a permanent form.

[Scipio1319]

No 11.2 news this week methinks. With the story post today it doesn't make sense. But maybe housing update? The cope is strong right now.

[Cheezits]

No 11.2 news this week methinks. With the story post today it doesn't make sense. But maybe housing update? The cope is strong right now.

Yep they are going to continue to market 11.1.7 this week so nothing until next week unless they tease a direct on Thursday.

[Scipio1319]

It does seem unlikely to reveal it the week before 11.1.7. Blizzard probably wants peoples' attention on that right now.

Agreed. It's such a small patch though. Unless the Arathi Story really has something that spoils 11.2. But based off PTR there isn't much.

[Cheezits]

Agreed. It's such a small patch though. Unless the Arathi Story really has something that spoils 11.2. But based off PTR there isn't much.

It's filler you can complete in a week, but they know most people have tapped out of a major patch by now. I think more people will be subbed for Gallagio 20.

[Hitei]

I would argue Worldcore/Rootlands is impossible to not be derivative of Dragonflight's Titan Ruins and Life aesthetics. I would much prefer it in a few years (TLT) than directly following Dragonflight.

Likelihood of either option completely put aside, this logic perplexes me.

Not singling you out, because I've seen it a bunch of times now from different people, but how are people worried about a hypothetical "Life themed" 11.2 being too much of a repeat too soon to 10.2... and then they turn around and nod along with the idea of 11.2 being probably 4-6 months of Void patch right before an entire expansion about fighting the Void. That was the exact misstep they did with WoD and Legion, that created the "fatigue" idea in the first place.

As resident half-of-Shadowlands hater, I'm all for bringing back any of the characters that had some unceremonious cameos. Both of your ideas are great.

There's also a nonzero chance we don't see some form of Arthas as well, I refuse to believe that they will stick with the Arthas soul fart ending from Shadowlands. Kael'thas is bound to be brought up in Midnight. Give me some form of Garrosh back.

But that being said, Kel'thuzad is most certainly going to be returning directly tied to the Scourge plots. I like this idea that he is this necromatic roach that cannot be killed, but keeps crawling his way back from various abysses to vye for power, constantly making routes to escape permanent death or a permanent form.

God, I really hope that the Scourge isn't much more than a small side-questing part of like one Midnight leveling zone. It just hamstrings forward progress of the storyline and region so hard. This was the largest problem with 95% of Cata's revamp: almost every zone was just "actually literally nothing you did in Vanilla questing did anything at all, and these enemy groups you completely stomped out haven't lost any forces at all and no one bothered to stop them from casually reclaiming all the same holds and positions".

People keep talking about Deatholme in the context of raid or dungeon like it wasn't razed by a few Blood Elf adventurers, and all its notable Scourge commanders killed a decade and a half ago when the Scourge was near the height of its power and the Blood Elves were largely unsupported and struggling with Mana addiction, Kael's duplicity, and a renewed Amani threat.

Scourge presence in Quel'thalas should be on the level of "every now and then rangers on patrol spot a couple lost ghouls/skeletons and take the opportunity to have an archery competition."

[Cheezits]

Likelihood of either option completely put aside, this logic perplexes me.

Not singling you out, because I've seen it a bunch of times now from different people, but how are people worried about a hypothetical "Life themed" 11.2 being too much of a repeat too soon to 10.2... and then they turn around and nod along with the idea of 11.2 being probably 4-6 months of Void patch right before an entire expansion about fighting the Void.

I am personally guessing a chunk of a K'aresh patch would be not very Voidy as we have some sandy Ethereals, pointing towards a possible Biodome. That, and it is very unlikely we are going to get a Void Zone in launch 12.0 anyway (similar to Legion), so a Voidy area in 11.2 wouldn't be too redundant timewise.

Also, if we get K'aresh in 11.2 the Blizz team has to be more creative with their patches in Midnight.

[Hitei]

I am personally guessing a chunk of a K'aresh patch would be not very Voidy as we have some sandy Ethereals, pointing towards a possible Biodome. That, and it is very unlikely we are going to get a Void Zone in launch 12.0 anyway, so a Voidy area in 11.2 wouldn't be too redundant timewise.

Also, if we get K'aresh in 11.2 the Blizz team has to be more creative with their patches in Midnight.

We didn't get a Fel zone in launch Legion and Tanaan is mostly just lush jungle, not felfire, but that didn't stop it feeling like a painful stretch of felfire and demons to a lot of players.

[Cheezits]

We didn't get a Fel zone in launch Legion and Tanaan is mostly just lush jungle, not felfire, but that didn't stop it feeling like a painful stretch of felfire and demons to a lot of players.

I mean, it's possible that K'aresh isn't very Void-y save for potentially some new mobs foreshadowing Midnight (it has to happen, there are like 3 Void models currently). I would argue that the Black Blood/Old God stuff for three patches is more painful than Cosmic Void crossing over for a few patches. We haven't even technically had a Void raid yet.

If the icons from launch truly were from an etherealraid then it wouldn't even be classified as Void or Xal's raid, despite the tabard looking like her. I'm sure she would be the end boss regardless.

[Hitei]

I mean, it's possible that K'aresh isn't very Void-y save for potentially some new mobs foreshadowing Midnight (it has to happen, there are like 3 Void models currently). I would argue that the Black Blood/Old God stuff for three patches is more painful than Cosmic Void crossing over for a few patches. We haven't even technically had a Void raid yet.

I mean, like... It sort of isn't, right?



I agree that, prior to 11.1, K'aresh could have been anything. It could have been a fractured, vibrant, bright red desert planet under a huge yellow sun. But we know now it's a wholly Void thing. Anything else in K'aresh is going to be subbordinate, visually and thematically, to the entire planet being void-consumed and the skybox being a giant void-torn planet like Argus' was the fel-consumed planet.

[Cheezits]

I agree that, prior to 11.1, K'aresh could have been anything. It could have been a fractured, vibrant, bright red desert planet under a huge yellow sun. But we know now it's a wholly Void thing. Anything else in K'aresh is going to be subbordinate, visually and thematically, to the entire planet being void-consumed and the skybox being a giant void-torn planet like Argus' was the fel-consumed planet.

Fully expect the Biodome concept (confirmed to be an Ethereal thing) to be revisited in order to force zone diversity. Could even be a Macaree situation with one lush ruins zone and one goopy zone (cinematic being the skybox of an Antoran Wastes equivalent)

[Thomir]

Holy fuck Blizzard please drop the reveal now I can't handle another week of the same 3 arguments in this thread.

[Jerhomie]

And in the Eastern Kingdoms of all things. I have no idea where this would be besides mmmmmaybe Blackrock Mountain? Alterac? Something that extends both into the ground and up to the sky.

Just a thought that something that goes into the sky and ground would be a tree; branches up, roots down. Although I don’t think we have a world tree in the Eastern Kingdoms. I do remember seeing an old concept map pre-WoW that had one in Quel’thalas, but I don’t know where that could fit now.