Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Makorus]

We know a strong Naaru can counter a Void Lord. So I don't know why Xal would want them around.

Because Dark Naaru transform into Void gods (which is still a really stupid name for something that's weaker than a Void Lord, but nevermind) which are strong enough entities for Locus Walker to tell Alleria to absorb.

I would be very, very surprised if Kiru (the Naaru on the Isle of Quel'danas) isn't gonna darken and be a boss in either a dungeon or a raid.

[Viridiel]

Found the book! It indeed has nothing to do with Murmur, at least on the surface. Mostly just a linear representation of the cosmic chart based on energy levels rather than the graph representation we're used it, but it does at least somewhat conflict with the Arathi book's description of "planes of existence", and I'm not sure what to do with the fact that it doesn't mention Life, Order, or Disorder, and it doesn't capitalise any of the "planes". Arguably the Twisting Nether represents Disorder, but maybe Order too and the Great Dark represents Life, or some other combination. It only become symmetrical if the Twisting Nether is Life and the Great Dark is Order and Disorder, but that would contradict basically everything we know about those planes. Maybe that was their original states as designed by the First Ones before the titans (or someone else) perverted things. The Rift of Aln does connect to the Twisting Nether for whatever reason.

It's pretty consistent with Chronicle, though, in depicting the Light and the Void as being particularly important, in this case as the beginning and the end of the natural transfer of energy respectively. It's also consistent with the idea that Void beings can't exist in the Great Dark (or, apparently, any realm other than the Void) without expending a large amount of energy to stop them from evaporating and slipping back down through the cracks.

[Hitei]

Found the book! It indeed has nothing to do with Murmur, at least on the surface. Mostly just a linear representation of the cosmic chart based on energy levels rather than the graph representation we're used it, but it does at least somewhat conflict with the Arathi book's description of "planes of existence", and I'm not sure what to do with the fact that it doesn't mention Life, Order, or Disorder, and it doesn't capitalise any of the "planes". Arguably the Twisting Nether represents Disorder, but maybe Order too and the Great Dark represents Life, or some other combination. It only become symmetrical if the Twisting Nether is Life and the Great Dark is Order and Disorder, but that would contradict basically everything we know about those planes. Maybe that was their original states as designed by the First Ones before the titans (or someone else) perverted things. The Rift of Aln does connect to the Twisting Nether for whatever reason.

It says right there that the Great Dark is a nexus of all the cosmic forces. We already pretty much know that. It's the normal 'physical' plane, where every other force is off in its own realm trying to fight for influence over it, with Azeroth at its metaphorical center. Life and Death are mentioned implicitly because spirit and decay are their adjacent forces in the elemental gamut.

But this isn't really supposed to be a translation of the "six cosmic forces" or the cosmology chart. It's about the stratification of various planes as locations one can exist in and travel between/continued existence in them.

[Enrif]

Found the book! It indeed has nothing to do with Murmur, at least on the surface. Mostly just a linear representation of the cosmic chart based on energy levels rather than the graph representation we're used it, but it does at least somewhat conflict with the Arathi book's description of "planes of existence", and I'm not sure what to do with the fact that it doesn't mention Life, Order, or Disorder, and it doesn't capitalise any of the "planes". Arguably the Twisting Nether represents Disorder, but maybe Order too and the Great Dark represents Life, or some other combination. It only become symmetrical if the Twisting Nether is Life and the Great Dark is Order and Disorder, but that would contradict basically everything we know about those planes. Maybe that was their original states as designed by the First Ones before the titans (or someone else) perverted things. The Rift of Aln does connect to the Twisting Nether for whatever reason.

It's pretty consistent with Chronicle, though, in depicting the Light and the Void as being particularly important, in this case as the beginning and the end of the natural transfer of energy respectively. It's also consistent with the idea that Void beings can't exist in the Great Dark (or, apparently, any realm other than the Void) without expending a large amount of energy to stop them from evaporating and slipping back down through the cracks.

It is an interesting way to look at the cosmic forces. I think order and chaos are the great dark and twisting nether respectively, while life is just reality.

and our excursion to the shadowlands does somewhat support that thesis. The shadowlands require energy from outer sources (Anima) to keep working or else they disintegrate, likely falling to entropy and thus void.

That Light is at the top of that is also something interesting, backing up the shards of light origin story in a way. If Light is of the highest energy, and breaking down into lower energy states creates what would become Naaru, Elementals and world souls. Though, World Souls could be even above Light in that energy hierarchy.

It is certainly an interesting idea brought forward by the ethereals.

[Viridiel]

That Light is at the top of that is also something interesting, backing up the shards of light origin story in a way. If Light is of the highest energy, and breaking down into lower energy states creates what would become Naaru, Elementals and world souls. Though, World Souls could be even above Light in that energy hierarchy.

I wouldn't be surprised if worldsouls are the "murmuration paradox". Palawltar's Codex implies that cosmic forces only combine up to a maximum of three, so if worldsouls really are a combination of all of the forces then they aren't supposed to exist. Murmuration is a real word that refers to order emerging from a chaotic social system, so it could be appropriate.

[Hitei]

I wouldn't be surprised if worldsouls are the "murmuration paradox". Palawltar's Codex implies that cosmic forces only combine up to a maximum of three, so if worldsouls really are a combination of all of the forces then they aren't supposed to exist. Murmuration is a real word that refers to order emerging from a chaotic social system, so it could be appropriate.

The murmuration paradox is, as stated there, a breakdown of the otherwise accurate mathematical predictions that happens completely at random and is impossible to predict. It's not worldsouls which are static things and as far as we know, the entire point of the cosmos' structure (i.e. as in-line with the math of the universe as you can possibly get).

If we're going to try and force a fringe, tinfoil cosmology speculation onto it, it would obviously either be the so-called "7th" that is supposed to be at odds with the universe's pattern (i.e. a mathematical model based on the regular cosmos and its forces would be unable to account for its interference) or the devourers, which likewise operate outside of the intended pattern and cause its breakdown.

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Also as a side note, not sure where you got a limitation of three combined forces from Palawltar's Codex?

[Joshuaj]

I can complain plenty about how Salhadaar's boss room is just another platform (and I think he got shafted in general considering the potential he had for lore, character, etc.—maybe he'll get something out of being Xal'atath's servant) and how the demon hunter bosses are fought in an area that looks like a place where you'd have done a world quest back on Argus. But I've got to say the walkway leading to Dimensius is actually grandiose and memorable. I really like how you can see this big set of TBC mana tubes in the background, it genuinely gives you the sense that you're in a huge sci-fantasy factory and nexus of a cosmic operation.

Wish the place looked gnarlier and more angular, and wish they dropped the generic nightborne runes at the base of the platform for something that looks more sci-fi like the runes ethereal areas had in TBC, but it overall looks cool. It actually brings back happy memories of Half-Life's Citadel.

I don't think Blizzard's missed once in terms of setting the stage visually for the cosmic boss fights (Sargeras, Zovaal, and Dimensius have all had great lead-ins to their confrontations, albeit we didn't confront Sargeras directly, but still).

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I wouldn't be surprised if worldsouls are the "murmuration paradox". Palawltar's Codex implies that cosmic forces only combine up to a maximum of three, so if worldsouls really are a combination of all of the forces then they aren't supposed to exist. Murmuration is a real word that refers to order emerging from a chaotic social system, so it could be appropriate.

They probably only aren't supposed to exist in their eyes because they kinda work against the natural functions of the cosmos. However, the First Ones probably did this intentionally or summ, based off what's implied so far.

That is, assuming the Worldsouls are the things being talked about ofc.

[Enrif]

I wouldn't be surprised if worldsouls are the "murmuration paradox". Palawltar's Codex implies that cosmic forces only combine up to a maximum of three, so if worldsouls really are a combination of all of the forces then they aren't supposed to exist. Murmuration is a real word that refers to order emerging from a chaotic social system, so it could be appropriate.

from what i quickly read up about murmuration, i don't think world souls are meant with it directly. As murmuration refers to the strange orderly yet chaotic structure that happens in bird swarms. So the paradox is: something is chaotic but yet orderly. I think for WoW this would be, why the shadowlands seem so ordered, but apparently wasn't ordered. Or why different worlds (K'aresh, Argus, Azeroth) all gave rise to powerful arcane (ordered) societies (K'areshi, Eredar, Elves), but all fall down to something chaotic (Dimensius, the Legion).

Which interestingly brings us back to some old fundamental assumption of the WoW universe. The connection of Arcane spellcasteres and the allure of Fel magic for them.

[Makorus]

I don't think Blizzard's missed once in terms of setting the stage visually for the cosmic boss fights (Sargeras, Zovaal, and Dimensius have all had great lead-ins to their confrontations, albeit we didn't confront Sargeras directly, but still).

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They probably only aren't supposed to exist in their eyes because they kinda work against the natural functions of the cosmos. However, the First Ones probably did this intentionally or summ, based off what's implied so far.

That is, assuming the Worldsouls are the things being talked about ofc.

Blizzard has never really missed any leadup or final boss room, really.

Boss rooms themselves have been getting dramatically worse from WoD onwards, but final boss rooms have been phenomenal (except maybe Gallywix, but then Gallagio is the definition of wasted potential). Like, really, looking back the only duds are Gallywix and arguably Fyrakk.

[Hitei]

from what i quickly read up about murmuration, i don't think world souls are meant with it directly. As murmuration refers to the strange orderly yet chaotic structure that happens in bird swarms. So the paradox is: something is chaotic but yet orderly. I think for WoW this would be, why the shadowlands seem so ordered, but apparently wasn't ordered. Or why different worlds (K'aresh, Argus, Azeroth) all gave rise to powerful arcane (ordered) societies (K'areshi, Eredar, Elves), but all fall down to something chaotic (Dimensius, the Legion).

Which interestingly brings us back to some old fundamental assumption of the WoW universe. The connection of Arcane spellcasteres and the allure of Fel magic for them.

Again, it's not just some regular object or some specific plane, place, or general paradoxical idea.

They have a mathematical framework for understanding moving between planes, e.g. "If you blast an Ethereal with a laser of <some energy> at just the right frequency and energy level, that Ethereal will phase shift from the Great Dark into the Twisting Nether." They have figured out planar travel not by just "do magic and open portal" but on a mathematical level. They have formulae originally adapted from economic prediction models that allow them to very accurately understand exactly how the planes work and how to move between them or stay on planes that are normally difficult to stay on.

e.g.
x=1
x+2= Phase into the Twisting Nether

The paradox is that despite being an extremely accurate mathematical framework, sometimes, at completely unpredictable points, for no known reason and without warning, suddenly:

x=1
x+2= (Phase into the Light)/0

Their normally accurate math, even using the exact same constants plugged in and done like all the other times, just suddenly stops working and breaks down. That is the paradox. Like a mage casting "Teleport: Dornogal" and then appearing in Westfall. Or like casting a portal spell and it consumes the caster's entire mana and also their whole body and all the anima of every living thing in a 1 mile radius and instead of making a portal, it opens a tear in reality and devourers start pouring out. Things like that. It's not something like "The shadowlands isn't Order but it's orderly" or "worldsouls exist and are weird". Those are both predictable. They'd know that teleporting to a worldsoul does weird things, or that the Shadowlands is orderly because the First Ones made it fairly regimented.

The paradox is something that randomly out of nowhere has their normally accurate planar math stuff just not work, and they don't know why it happens or where it's going to happen (because it happens even if they do exactly what worked last time) and have no way to predict when it's going to happen.

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If it is some specific singular sort of occurrence (for example, "the 'murmuration' paradox is when Ethereals or Brokers go to phase shift between planes and when they come out the other side of the teleport they look like themselves but are instead some weird replacement look alike hivemind thing that is hostile") it is an occurrence that is not tied to any specific location or method of travel or any other factor that they can explain, because they are unable to predict it or explain it, or figure out why it happens. Nothing in their math says it should be happening and the phase shift was done exactly like all the other times down to the decimal point but something strange at odds with their math happened anyway.

[Joshuaj]

Again, it's not just some regular object or some specific plane, place, or general paradoxical idea.

They have a mathematical framework for understanding moving between planes, e.g. "If you blast an Ethereal with a laser of <some energy> at just the right frequency and energy level, that Ethereal will phase shift from the Great Dark into the Twisting Nether." They have figured out planar travel not by just "do magic and open portal" but on a mathematical level. They have formulae originally adapted from economic prediction models that allow them to very accurately understand exactly how the planes work and how to move between them or stay on planes that are normally difficult to stay on.

e.g.
x=1
x+2= Phase into the Twisting Nether

The paradox is that despite being an extremely accurate mathematical framework, sometimes, at completely unpredictable points, for no known reason and without warning, suddenly:

x=1
x+2= (Phase into the Light)/0

Their normally accurate math, even using the exact same constants plugged in and done like all the other times, just suddenly stops working and breaks down. That is the paradox. Like a mage casting "Teleport: Dornogal" and then appearing in Westfall. Or like casting a portal spell and it consumes the caster's entire mana and also their whole body and all the anima of every living thing in a 1 mile radius and instead of making a portal, it opens a tear in reality and devourers start pouring out. Things like that. It's not something like "The shadowlands isn't Order but it's orderly" or "worldsouls exist and are weird". Those are both predictable. They'd know that teleporting to a worldsoul does weird things, or that the Shadowlands is orderly because the First Ones made it fairly regimented.

The paradox is something that randomly out of nowhere has their normally accurate planar math stuff just not work, and they don't know why it happens or where it's going to happen (because it happens even if they do exactly what worked last time) and have no way to predict when it's going to happen.

-

If it is some specific singular sort of occurrence (for example, "the 'murmuration' paradox is when Ethereals or Brokers go to phase shift between planes and when they come out the other side of the teleport they look like themselves but are instead some weird replacement look alike hivemind thing that is hostile") it is an occurrence that is not tied to any specific location or method of travel or any other factor that they can explain, because they are unable to predict it or explain it, or figure out why it happens. Nothing in their math says it should be happening and the phase shift was done exactly like all the other times down to the decimal point but something strange at odds with their math happened anyway.

That's a lot of math n shit just to basically say "oh yeah, we have a chart that's somewhat similar to the Chronicle belief of the cosmology, but with some unique viewpoints"

[huth]

The murmuration paradox is, as stated there, a breakdown of the otherwise accurate mathematical predictions that happens completely at random and is impossible to predict. It's not worldsouls which are static things and as far as we know, the entire point of the cosmos' structure (i.e. as in-line with the math of the universe as you can possibly get).

If we're going to try and force a fringe, tinfoil cosmology speculation onto it, it would obviously either be the so-called "7th" that is supposed to be at odds with the universe's pattern (i.e. a mathematical model based on the regular cosmos and its forces would be unable to account for its interference) or the devourers, which likewise operate outside of the intended pattern and cause its breakdown.

-

Also as a side note, not sure where you got a limitation of three combined forces from Palawltar's Codex?

Unless i'm misremembering, the Devourers are an intentional part of the Shadowlands, essentially a garbage collection mechanism. What wasn't supposed to happen is them getting into Zereth Mortis.

[Joshuaj]

Unless i'm misremembering, the Devourers are an intentional part of the Shadowlands, essentially a garbage collection mechanism. What wasn't supposed to happen is them getting into Zereth Mortis.

That's quite literally their original purpose, yes.

[Makorus]

Unless i'm misremembering, the Devourers are an intentional part of the Shadowlands, essentially a garbage collection mechanism. What wasn't supposed to happen is them getting into Zereth Mortis.

I don't think that was ever explicitly stated. I think the only thing that is said is that they used to have a purpose, for balance, but then again, it's hard to tell if the "used to" is referring to the mutation they suffer from in Zereth Mortis, or the whole species.

They just seem to like anima.

I do hope that one day we return to the Shadowlands and the In-Between specifically because Devourers are probably one of the coolest concepts in recent WoW, and there is A LOT of potential with them.

[Enrif]

Again, it's not just some regular object or some specific plane, place, or general paradoxical idea.

They have a mathematical framework for understanding moving between planes, e.g. "If you blast an Ethereal with a laser of <some energy> at just the right frequency and energy level, that Ethereal will phase shift from the Great Dark into the Twisting Nether." They have figured out planar travel not by just "do magic and open portal" but on a mathematical level. They have formulae originally adapted from economic prediction models that allow them to very accurately understand exactly how the planes work and how to move between them or stay on planes that are normally difficult to stay on.

e.g.
x=1
x+2= Phase into the Twisting Nether

The paradox is that despite being an extremely accurate mathematical framework, sometimes, at completely unpredictable points, for no known reason and without warning, suddenly:

x=1
x+2= (Phase into the Light)/0

Their normally accurate math, even using the exact same constants plugged in and done like all the other times, just suddenly stops working and breaks down. That is the paradox. Like a mage casting "Teleport: Dornogal" and then appearing in Westfall. Or like casting a portal spell and it consumes the caster's entire mana and also their whole body and all the anima of every living thing in a 1 mile radius and instead of making a portal, it opens a tear in reality and devourers start pouring out. Things like that. It's not something like "The shadowlands isn't Order but it's orderly" or "worldsouls exist and are weird". Those are both predictable. They'd know that teleporting to a worldsoul does weird things, or that the Shadowlands is orderly because the First Ones made it fairly regimented.

The paradox is something that randomly out of nowhere has their normally accurate planar math stuff just not work, and they don't know why it happens or where it's going to happen (because it happens even if they do exactly what worked last time) and have no way to predict when it's going to happen.

-

If it is some specific singular sort of occurrence (for example, "the 'murmuration' paradox is when Ethereals or Brokers go to phase shift between planes and when they come out the other side of the teleport they look like themselves but are instead some weird replacement look alike hivemind thing that is hostile") it is an occurrence that is not tied to any specific location or method of travel or any other factor that they can explain, because they are unable to predict it or explain it, or figure out why it happens. Nothing in their math says it should be happening and the phase shift was done exactly like all the other times down to the decimal point but something strange at odds with their math happened anyway.

mathematical prediction is nothing different to prophezising the outcome. Like, predicitng that the nightelves become a arcane empire. The paradox would be that, it predictied it would last for hundreds of millenia, but instead they tempered with the legion and the empire fell. So, my earlier statement is still applicable.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

That's a lot of math n shit just to basically say "oh yeah, we have a chart that's somewhat similar to the Chronicle belief of the cosmology, but with some unique viewpoints"

I think you're misunderstanding. This isn't supposed to be about conceptual modeling at all, but as @Hitei outlined just a description of an interesting deviation from a consistently effectual mathematical model. They're describing an in-universe scientific problem, which I have to say I genuinely really like as a nice way to add some genuine depth to how to these races interact with and model cosmology. One of the relatively few things I like about how the cosmic chart has been handled is that both the Arathi and K'areshi are using actual scientific instruments to investigate their cosmology instead of just bluntly dredging up ideological qualitative information, and the fact that these instruments are imperfect either because they're instrumentalist heuristics or because they're missing some quanta.

If this is supposed to reveal or suggest anything about the cosmic forces beyond that, I'd say it's probably alluding to the Seventh Force—if factored in, the Seventh Force might be what makes murmuration predictable, but the absence of the Seventh Force from K'areshi models leaves murmuration and other theoretical results of its existence apparently random and unexplainable within those models.

The difference between the Arathi and K'areshi models in itself is interesting, since it seems like the Arathi are using a more qualitative, scholastic way of exploring things going off their use of logical proofs, while the K'areshi are using a more quantitative, modern scientific way of exploring things with mathematical models.

I think this is a surprisingly good turn for how the cosmology has been portrayed, and an extreme version of this kind of problem could be used to explore a favorite topic of mine, which is the Instrumentalism/Realism dichotomy—if you're not familiar, scientific realism teaches that science in some way reveals objective "truths" within the universe, while scientific instrumentalism teaches that science only really needs to create models sufficient to explain and adequately predict phenomena without necessarily being essentially "true" (basically, realists think we discover math, instrumentalists think we invent it).

[Joshuaj]

I think you're misunderstanding. This isn't supposed to be about conceptual modeling at all, but as @Hitei outlined just a description of an interesting deviation from a consistently effectual mathematical model. They're describing an in-universe scientific problem, which I have to say I genuinely really like as a nice way to add some genuine depth to how to these races interact with and model cosmology. One of the relatively few things I like about how the cosmic chart has been handled is that both the Arathi and K'areshi are using actual scientific instruments to investigate their cosmology instead of just bluntly dredging up ideological qualitative information, and the fact that these instruments are imperfect either because they're instrumentalist heuristics or because they're missing some quanta.

If this is supposed to reveal or suggest anything about the cosmic forces beyond that, I'd say it's probably alluding to the Seventh Force—if factored in, the Seventh Force might be what makes murmuration predictable, but the absence of the Seventh Force from K'areshi models leaves murmuration and other theoretical results of its existence apparently random and unexplainable within those models.

The difference between the Arathi and K'areshi models in itself is interesting, since it seems like the Arathi are using a more qualitative, scholastic way of exploring things going off their use of logical proofs, while the K'areshi are using a more quantitative, modern scientific way of exploring things with mathematical models.

I think this is a surprisingly good turn for how the cosmology has been portrayed, and an extreme version of this kind of problem could be used to explore a favorite topic of mine, which is the Instrumentalism/Realism dichotomy—if you're not familiar, scientific realism teaches that science in some way reveals objective "truths" within the universe, while scientific instrumentalism teaches that science only really needs to create models sufficient to explain and adequately predict phenomena without necessarily being essentially "true" (basically, realists think we discover math, instrumentalists think we invent it).

Well, it IS a model, but it's also discussing things regarding said model (such as the murmuration paradox). Regarding the murmuration thing tho? Could be 7th related, as it seemingly has touched the Progenitors design some way somehow, all while having its own design seemingly prepped.

[Hitei]

mathematical prediction is nothing different to prophezising the outcome. Like, predicitng that the nightelves become a arcane empire. The paradox would be that, it predictied it would last for hundreds of millenia, but instead they tempered with the legion and the empire fell. So, my earlier statement is still applicable.

It's not, because then they wouldn't have trouble predicting it. "ordered things eventually become chaotic" is a 100% predictable, straightforward law. They would have no trouble accounting for it because it's a basic and consistent idea.

The paradox is an occurrence related to planar structure and interplanar travel (because that is what the mathematics framework it that happens to is about) that happens at seemingly arbitrary, unpredictable times for no reason. You are reading too much into the term murmuration but sort of outright ignoring the text that actually explains what the paradox itself is, even if we don't get the exact actualization it manifests as:

"Mathematics accurately describes the spontaneous transfer of coherent energy forms between planes..."
We have math that explains people teleporting between planes

"...but breaks down into the unpredictable "murmuration" paradox"
But [something] makes that math stop working

"Despite the accuracy of the mathematical models, the "murmuration" paradox remains unresolved. This paradox appears unpredictably, even when using the same constant values. The exact point where this paradox occurs is impossible to predict, adding a layer of mystery to the multiverse."
Even though our math for teleporty-plane stuff is very good and works, sometimes [something] goes wrong, even when using the math that just worked last time, and we have no way to tell when that [something] is going to happen or where, or how to not have it happen.

It's not something like "worldsouls are strange" or "all arcane ordered stuff eventually goes wrong" it's some inexplicable, unpredictable occurrence which is causing problems in their otherwise very accurate teleportation math.

Unless i'm misremembering, the Devourers are an intentional part of the Shadowlands, essentially a garbage collection mechanism. What wasn't supposed to happen is them getting into Zereth Mortis.

Yes, but their origin isn't important. What's important is that at current (and in SL) they are a thing that is very specifically not acting according to the Pattern. So an otherwise clean mathematical explanation of planes may not be able to account for their existence and interference.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Well, it IS a model, but it's also discussing things regarding said model (such as the murmuration paradox). Regarding the murmuration thing tho? Could be 7th related, as it seemingly has touched the Progenitors design some way somehow, all while having its own design seemingly prepped.

I think you're still not grasping what's being communicated.

This has much less to do with the murmuration paradox or whatever it actually entails and much more to do with communicating the idea of "using our mathematical models (based in the six-force theory), [thing] doesn't make any sense".

My supposition is the problem is that their models are instrumentally sufficient to consistently predict and explain almost all the other teleportation phenomena, but their models being based on incomplete data leaves them unable to predict events that are caused solely by an extra force they aren't factoring in at all—as a result, murmuration looks random even though it's actually explainable.


To simplify further:

They're predicting and explaining things with a model that assumes six forces, I assume murmuration is caused entirely by a force not accounted for by that model so it looks random.

[COBRAstriker]

People really have rosetinted glasses on everything WoW between Classic and WotLK.

I dare say the plot has never been this important in the history of WoW. It was quite bad/bland back in the days.

Is it top quality? No. It still fluctuates a bit too much. But the bashing is a bit immature, too. Especially if you play and see all of it yourself.

By the way, Manaforge Omega looks fabulous from the inside. And BIG.

Go and compare the Wrathgate cinematic with the Marran/Faerin one. Both are in game. The tech was so bad in Wrath that the horde and alliance armies are actual players, sometimes emoting
And it still is 20x better in everything. Dialogue, presentation, characters, things are actually happening and there are consequences
And we're comparing an almost 20 years old cutscene with one that just came out
It's embarrassing. That's the word that perfectly describes current WoW storytelling and depiction. Embarrassing