Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Xilurm]

Meanwhile Khadgar opening portals from one timeline to another willy nilly in WoD.

[Hitei]

I mean, Dragonflight absolutely had a world ending threat tied to it. Massive elemental storms taking over areas and the Aspects themselves in peril. Sure the intro is about a scientific expedition but the story is never about that expedition. We went there because Wrathion/Ebyssian and Khadgar told us to go there to help the dragons fight the Incarnates.

Eh. Wrathion is largely concerned with the expedition part, Khadgar is the one who shows up (when everything is already prepared to leave) and is worried more specifically about the Incarnates because Kalec is. You'll note that Wrathion isn't even particularly concerned about them after you get there, he, and Alex's forces, are preocupied with the Djaradin and securing their old places until Razageth and the Primalists show up and take the offensive.

But my point wasn't "there's no large threat at all" it was that going to K'aresh doesn't need to be "the void is invading Azeroth we have to go attack them at their stronghold" it can just simply be that we go to the remnants of the planet as part of a much smaller stakes operation. There doesn't need to be some grand motivating factor that threatens all of existence, we can just be hired to go by Ethereals, or asked to go by a faction trying to research the Void, or tricked into going by Xal'atath.

Azeroth was specifically distant, not specially protected. Dimensional Portals are repeatedly said in the lore to take massive amount of power to create and to be extremely dangerous (crafting the Scepter of Sargeras and using it threatens the fabric of reality). We don't actually see the Legion invading by portal; we see them having portals in places they invaded (which could have been powered by Soul Engines). On Azeroth their entire invasion hinged on the Felstorm; we have no idea how the Felstorm got to be except for it being ancient and having been sealed off in the past.

Look, Blizzard can ofc change the lore and open portals to K'aresh. But that again is not a reason for Azeroth's greatest heroes to leave and go to the other end of the multiverse.

K'aresh isn't in a different plane. It's in the Great Dark, not the Twisting Nether. A regular long distance portal would work fine, like the portals maintained between Azeroth and Outland.

[huth]

Azeroth was specifically distant, not specially protected.

No, it was protected, not distant. Sargeras had no clue where it actually was, despite having been there before. They needed the Guardian not because of the power required, but as a beacon to connect to.

And there's a short story explaining what a normal Legion invasion looks like: They simply open portals, overrun everything and leave in a matter of minutes.

[Nymrohd]

Meanwhile Khadgar opening portals from one timeline to another willy nilly in WoD.

He did? A bronze dragon did using the existing dimensional rift between Draenor and Azeroth plus time magic powered by all that adventurers gathered in the Timeless Isle. I think the devs even said, a very specific connection was formed. Khadgar was just tapping into that.
Again, the devs can do whatever they want. But portal magic that cross the universe is supposed to be very special.

[Well Done Steak]

You realise how entirely random this plot is? If we are going to do a cosmic void expansion, why not just go straight to the Void and instead do a pit stop in K'aresh?
And open a portal to a planet elsewhere in the universe like it's nothing? It took Sargeras possessing a Guardian to open the Dark Portal, it took the Felstorm which is apparently an ancient portal that took the Pillars of Creation to contain plus the Sargerite Keystone in order to open a portal to Argus. And somehow Ethereals can open a portal to K'aresh like that?
Also how is that portal linked to the Ethereals and K'aresh? If it is going to be the expansion's area, then it should be the focus, not just a backdrop. Also why is K'aresh the strongest foothold of the Void in the universe? From what we know Dimensius left after destroying the planet (indeed by the lore, he couldn't stay there; once he is out of something to consume, he'd fade back into the void). We know there are void planets out there that are fully consumed by Old Gods, K'aresh is likely something like Outland only with far greater and more elaborate Ecodomes.

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I mean, Dragonflight absolutely had a world ending threat tied to it. Massive elemental storms taking over areas and the Aspects themselves in peril. Sure the intro is about a scientific expedition but the story is never about that expedition. We went there because Wrathion/Ebyssian and Khadgar told us to go there to help the dragons fight the Incarnates.

Okay maybe not strongest foothold.

Since dimensions manifested there, it left a rift open to their realm that's being guarded by void beings. So how about it's their most VULNERABLE position in the universe? Or one of many, but the only one known to us due to our relationship with the Ethereals.

Yrel finds out about this through locus walker interrogations and launches her crusade.

Also Ethereals travel to and from Kar sh very easily. Look at the world event in blades egde. The boss Ethereal there came straight from karesh to confront the player

[Nymrohd]

Okay maybe not strongest foothold.

Since dimensions manifested there, it left a rift open to their realm that's being guarded by void beings. So how about it's their most VULNERABLE position in the universe?

Yrel finds out about this through locus walker interrogations and launches her crusade.

I think there are just much bigger stakes if Yrel invades Azeroth. I'd rather have stories that focus on Azeroth and maybe dip elsewhere. I could see K'aresh as a final patch similar to Argus if there is good reasoning for it. I did have an expansion concept that used K'aresh myself but that was space exploration focused.

[Well Done Steak]

I think there are just much bigger stakes if Yrel invades Azeroth. I'd rather have stories that focus on Azeroth and maybe dip elsewhere. I could see K'aresh as a final patch similar to Argus if there is good reasoning for it. I did have an expansion concept that used K'aresh myself but that was space exploration focused.

See, what falls apart for me is what new land mass in azeroth is Yrel going to be interested in?

There's not gonna be a world revamp...

It already happened with cata and players quickly to bored of the updated EK and Kal. Only the new cata zones really mattered for endgame. Everything else was just to spruce up leveling at the time.

If I was Yrel, I'd rather take my zealot army and light God to the place where I can strike at the void to irradicate them from the cosmos.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

He did? A bronze dragon did using the existing dimensional rift between Draenor and Azeroth plus time magic powered by all that adventurers gathered in the Timeless Isle. I think the devs even said, a very specific connection was formed. Khadgar was just tapping into that.
Again, the devs can do whatever they want. But portal magic that cross the universe is supposed to be very special.

At the very least, we already know that one (seemingly-minor) faction of ethereals maintains a stable connection to K'aresh from Outland. I figure that this suggests the ethereals possess a greater capacity for translocation than we're assuming.

I think there are just much bigger stakes if Yrel invades Azeroth. I'd rather have stories that focus on Azeroth and maybe dip elsewhere. I could see K'aresh as a final patch similar to Argus if there is good reasoning for it. I did have an expansion concept that used K'aresh myself but that was space exploration focused.

Honestly, I'm hoping that Yrel isn't reduced to an expansion villain. I'd much prefer the Lightbound join the Alliance. It's a faction in desperate need of an edge, so giving it a more bellicose subfaction could be nice.

[Nymrohd]

No, it was protected, not distant. Sargeras had no clue where it actually was, despite having been there before. They needed the Guardian not because of the power required, but as a beacon to connect to.

That makes no sense. The Legion spend a long time creating a portal using the Well during the War of the Ancients yet no one documented the planar coordinates? Sargeras used the Scepter to later send an Azeroth to Northrend just so he could possess Aegwynn and he was observing the planet since he chose Aegwynn for her power and pride so he very obviously knew were it was and had means to scry on the planet. Demons have also landed on the planet at other times; Kathra'natir got to Dalaran several millenia ago somehow.
The Legion absolutely can reach Azeroth and knows how to; they simply cannot open portals that last long or that are powerful enough for their strongest members to pass through unless there are extraordinary circumstances like the Well of Eternity, the Dark Portal, the Sunwell, the Felstorm.

I could see the Ethereals opening small portals for a few of us to pass through but not major enough for troops. Which would be interesting. Maybe even better, we could cross to K'aresh from portals established in Outland which presumably might be closer.

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See, what falls apart for me is what new land mass in azeroth is Yrel going to be interested in?

There's not gonna be a world revamp...

It already happened with cata and players quickly to bored of the updated EK and Kal. Only the new cata zones really mattered for endgame. Everything else was just to spruce up leveling at the time.

If I was Yrel, I'd rather take my zealot army and light God to the place where I can strike at the void to irradicate them from the cosmos.

if yrel is interested in Azeroth, she is interested for having the people who saved her join her in her righteous cause and maybe for the World Soul.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

K'aresh isn't in a different plane. It's in the Great Dark, not the Twisting Nether. A regular long distance portal would work fine, like the portals maintained between Azeroth and Outland.

I don't think we actually know whether it's in the Void, Great Dark, or Twisting Nether. It's never explicitly stated. But, as was earlier mentioned, the ethereals do maintain a connection to it and have outposts there.

[Well Done Steak]

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if yrel is interested in Azeroth, she is interested for having the people who saved her join her in her righteous cause and maybe for the World Soul.

That could be the pre patch story line though.

[Nymrohd]

Honestly, I'm hoping that Yrel isn't reduced to an expansion villain. I'd much prefer the Lightbound join the Alliance. It's a faction in desperate need of an edge, so giving it a more bellicose subfaction could be nice.

I don't see why the Alliance needs an edge. People are happy to play the "bland" faction. So many people make that choice in every game I know, playing the obvious heroes, the paladins etc. You have an option for an edgier faction, go play that. People did not pick to play Horde because it is edgier (if they had, the faction would have been the more populous from the start and half the Horde players would not be elves). You do not need the Alliance to be edgy to produce a better narrative, you just need stakes (and you absolutely can have stakes vs a third party threat). Sorry but you are just projecting your own desires on the playerbase. There is no desperate need for anything like that. There is a need for more people to have a chance in the front than the Night Elves and the same five humans but that's it.

As for Yrel, I don't see her arc as something that should take multiple expansion to resolve. I also don't see her as a villain. I think that if she did come on Azeroth, she would personally come for the Alliance Hero and Khadgar, the people who saved her, saved her planet and propped her up. She would not come to invade, she would come to recruit and would be nonviolent at first. Imo the best way to have done this would be to have the Horde WIN BfA and then Yrel to show up in the next expansion to back the Alliance up.

[loras]

If he isn’t dealt with then the Titans aren’t showing up, a mortal “becoming his avatar” just isn’t a thing.

Illidan isn't mortal tho.
"The child of light and shadow", half-demon, power hungry... i could see him making a poorly thought put attempt to steal Sargeras' power.

[huth]

That makes no sense. The Legion spend a long time creating a portal using the Well during the War of the Ancients yet no one documented the planar coordinates?

Every time they came to Azeroth, they needed somebody on Azeroth to get them there. Summoning demons to Azeroth is no problem, but they can't create inbound portals from elsewhere. They need somebody/thing on Azeroth.

And no, they did not have the coordinates. That's kinda the point. They do for just about everywhere else, but they can't seem to figure out where Azeroth is. Azeroth, specificially, is protected.

[Hitei]

I don't think we actually know whether it's in the Void, Great Dark, or Twisting Nether. It's never explicitly stated. But, as was earlier mentioned, the ethereals do maintain a connection to it and have outposts there.

That's not entirely accurate:

K'aresh was an arid planet, home to a thriving ecosystem and several sentient species before the arrival of Dimensius the All-Devouring. How the void lord found K'aresh is still hotly debated among the surviving ethereals, but the effects of his coming were unmistakable: he opened countless gateways into the void and the Twisting Nether around the planet

Afaik there's nothing to suggest it was pulled into the Void (especially since the Ethereals are able to still easily access it) and the Legion wasn't involved so there's not much reason for it to have somehow been shifted into the Twisting Nether.

[Nymrohd]

Every time they came to Azeroth, they needed somebody on Azeroth to get them there. Summoning demons to Azeroth is no problem, but they can't create inbound portals from elsewhere. They need somebody/thing on Azeroth.

And no, they did not have the coordinates. That's kinda the point. They do for just about everywhere else, but they can't seem to figure out where Azeroth is. Azeroth, specificially, is protected.

I literally gave you examples that you decided to cut out of your quote though? Sargeras was scrying on Azeroth, knew of Aegwynn, used the Scepter and opened a portal to send an Avatar to Northrend (not to Aegwynn, to Northrend) with no one on the other side helping. Kathra'natir somehow got on Azeroth by himself.

[loras]

You could say the same about KT and Zandalar.

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In the interest of not having a world ending threat, it could be as simple as a group of Ethereals or Brokers (or both) putting together an expedition like the Dragonscale, but financially motivated instead of for research. A group of merchants and traders who decide the resources and riches potentially free for the taking justifies the risks and offers to hire Alliance and Horde players as escorts/bodyguards for their expedition. Actual mercenaries.

So you show up there just helping to set up a base camp, fighting off local wildlife and hostile forces, but end up involved in larger stuff, the Ethereals in a civil war, Light forces invading the shattered remnants of the world, etc.

You could even have the base camp build up with each patch until by X.2.5 or X.3 it's a fullscale city. Individual renown factions of different groups of merchants or traders, rival factions of competing cartels.

The ethereals aren't unified, "civil war" is their day to day state of interfactional politics.

[Hitei]

I literally gave you examples that you decided to cut out of your quote though? Sargeras was scrying on Azeroth, knew of Aegwynn, used the Scepter and opened a portal to send an Avatar to Northrend (not to Aegwynn, to Northrend) with no one on the other side helping. Kathra'natir somehow got on Azeroth by himself.

I don't know that portals require specific locational understanding. Sargeras may simply have been attuning to Azeroth's magical signature, which he already would have understood from previous contact with the world during the war of the ancients. Documenting planar coordinates requires you to understand the location you're in. If the Legion showed up 10,000 years ago and above was a sky with zero recognizable stars, because who knows how the Great Dark even works, if Azeroth is a nearby constituent or the equivalent of in a different galaxy.

The legion doesn't traditionally operate by physically crossing the distance to a location, they magically connect to the region and invade. As above, that's probably based on some sort of magic-based recognition rather than the exact coordinates (this wouldn't even work because planets are orbiting around stars and stars themselves aren't stationary, so targeting the exact location of Northrend 10,000 years before would just put you in open space.

Kathra'natir, all dread lords, are a bit of a wild card. I don't know that you can attribute their capabilities to the Legion or any other force. They were specifically made to slip in and out of other planes for infiltration. God knows how they work, but the Legion as a whole (and any other magic users) probably aren't operating in a remotely similar fashion.

The ethereals aren't unified, "civil war" is their day to day state of interfactional politics.

In specific, I meant because the Ethereum is historically in control of the planet and were traditionally dedicated to hatred-fueled pursuit of destroying Dimensius and seeking vengeance, but the Shadowguard is potentially an off-shoot of the Ethereum and is actively siding with and attempting to spread the Void.

So it's possible that the most significant faction of the Ethereals has fractured into two forces at war with each other.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I don't know that portals require specific locational understanding. Sargeras may simply have been attuning to Azeroth's magical signature, which he already would have understood from previous contact with the world during the war of the ancients. Documenting planar coordinates requires you to understand the location you're in. If the Legion showed up 10,000 years ago and above was a sky with zero recognizable stars, because who knows how the Great Dark even works, if Azeroth is a nearby constituent or the equivalent of in a different galaxy.

The legion doesn't traditionally operate by physically crossing the distance to a location, they magically connect to the region and invade. As above, that's probably based on some sort of magic-based recognition rather than the exact coordinates (this wouldn't even work because planets are orbiting around stars and stars themselves aren't stationary, so targeting the exact location of Northrend 10,000 years before would just put you in open space.

Kathra'natir, all dread lords, are a bit of a wild card. I don't know that you can attribute their capabilities to the Legion or any other force. They were specifically made to slip in and out of other planes for infiltration. God knows how they work, but the Legion as a whole (and any other magic users) probably aren't operating in a remotely similar fashion.

Dread Lords can probably be get onto worlds easier then powerful demons and such just by their nature or the "Needs to be summoned on world" may not apply to them.

[loras]

I don't know that portals require specific locational understanding. Sargeras may simply have been attuning to Azeroth's magical signature, which he already would have understood from previous contact with the world during the war of the ancients. Documenting planar coordinates requires you to understand the location you're in. If the Legion showed up 10,000 years ago and above was a sky with zero recognizable stars, because who knows how the Great Dark even works, if Azeroth is a nearby constituent or the equivalent of in a different galaxy.

The legion doesn't traditionally operate by physically crossing the distance to a location, they magically connect to the region and invade. As above, that's probably based on some sort of magic-based recognition rather than the exact coordinates (this wouldn't even work because planets are orbiting around stars and stars themselves aren't stationary, so targeting the exact location of Northrend 10,000 years before would just put you in open space.

Kathra'natir, all dread lords, are a bit of a wild card. I don't know that you can attribute their capabilities to the Legion or any other force. They were specifically made to slip in and out of other planes for infiltration. God knows how they work, but the Legion as a whole (and any other magic users) probably aren't operating in a remotely similar fashion.


In specific, I meant because the Ethereum is historically in control of the planet and were traditionally dedicated to hatred-fueled pursuit of destroying Dimensius and seeking vengeance, but the Shadowguard is potentially an off-shoot of the Ethereum and is actively siding with and attempting to spread the Void.

So it's possible that the most significant faction of the Ethereals has fractured into two forces at war with each other.

Ah, like that.
Yeah fair enough, that could happen.