Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Makorus]

This is awkward logic though. Yes, there is a thing that must be added to facilitate it. But that is no different than this:

Are we talking about just lore justifications, or are we talking about the technical requirements of implementation? Because if we are talking about lore justifications, then there is zero difference between these three classes. All of them are "there's no reason that X couldn't be trained to be a Y". If we are talking about the technical requirements of implementation i.e. the DH intro happens in the context of Legion, then I feel the need to point out that Pandaren and Goblin druids or paladins are ALSO "physically impossible" simply because right now the plethora of forms required for druid or mounts required for paladin are "not a thing".

We are talking about future implementation of race-class combinations so what is currently in the game is sort of irrelevant.

Adding a new 1-3 time-agnostic intro for DH similar to the DK 2.0 one would be a very minimal addition compared to even one additional druid race's implementation requirements.

We are obviously talking about a lore justification.

As of right now, there could be Goblin Druids wandering Azeroth (and, I mean, we do have Pandaren Druids, Blood Elves Druid, Human druids, Night Elf Paladins, etc. already). They could literally add them, right now, without changing anything else, and it would be fine. Our character is, for all intents and purposes, a blank slate, with no prior history, and no age or anything.

You couldn't really do that with DHs or Evokers right now. The Hero classes are not blank slates, they have a backstory.

You can't just put a Goblin into the DH starting zone, because it wouldn't make any sense. Illidan, specifically trained Elves. They simply wouldn't be on Mardum.
Even more so with Evokers. Right now, it would make absolutely no sense. There would be no reason for a Goblin Evoker to be locked up.

And yeah, of course, Blizzard can do whatever they want, they could make a new scenario, however, the Hero classes actually need justification because most hero classes aren't just a thing that can be taught. Shamanism can be taught. Druidism can be taught. Paladins can be taught.

You can't really "teach" someone to be a Demon Hunter. You can't really "teach" someone to be an Evoker. You can't really "teach" someone to be a Death Knight.

[Thros]

I say Red for Vitae cause I'm basing it off Alexstrasza's magics LMAO. Though ik Red can also be associated with Hellfire and whatnot, which is Disorder.

I feel like if not green, then red goes to Tumult unless it's a combination of both. As for Vitae, I feel like it could be from any season of life unless it's closer with the unordered part of the Emerald Dream, but probably closer to what Ysera was pre-Shadowlands considering her originator.

[Joshuaj]

I feel like if not green, then red goes to Tumult unless it's a combination of both. As for Vitae, I feel like it could be from any season of life unless it's closer with the unordered part of the Emerald Dream, but probably closer to what Ysera was pre-Shadowlands considering her originator.

I would agree, but Mortis already has that gem color. So I wonder...

[Wangming]

They should just make gnomes less "one-note." There could be a sect that rejects technology and opts for simpler living. I guess there's the sand gnomes ... whatever they are ...

No race should be one note.

As much as I love worgen and pandaren they, at least the players, are also one note.

Worgen are posh british people from victorian London who are by the way werewolves.

Pandaren are fat monk who love food. Seriously, all of them are monks. You are trained in a monastery to fight. You can play as a warlock or stuff, but it is very obvious from the starting experience that you are intended to be a monk.

[Hitei]

We are obviously talking about a lore justification.

As of right now, there could be Goblin Druids wandering Azeroth (and, I mean, we do have Pandaren Druids, Blood Elves Druid, Human druids, Night Elf Paladins, etc. already). They could literally add them, right now, without changing anything else, and it would be fine. Our character is, for all intents and purposes, a blank slate, with no prior history, and no age or anything.

You couldn't really do that with DHs or Evokers right now. The Hero classes are not blank slates, they have a backstory.

???? This is a completely arbitrary distinction. There is no difference between the two. There could be Goblin Demon Hunters wandering Azeroth right now, because there have been ten years in which Horde Goblins have been around and fighting alongside Demon Hunters. What has stopped anyone from joining the Illidari in the decade during which they've been actively fighting alongside, and as part of, the Alliance and Horde?

DH is also a blank slate. There is nothing about the class that fundamentally says "oh you HAVE to have been part of the raid on Marduum and sealed in the vault of the wardens!", that is just their current intro. Just like a hypothetical Pandaren druid's current intro takes place either on Wandering Isle (where they had no one to learn druidism from) or Exile's reach, which takes place before DF when there weren't any Pandaren druids.


Evokers are uniquely distinct because their class is biologically derived. They aren't taught, they are just dragons doing dragon stuff.

[Wangming]

This is awkward logic though. Yes, there is a thing that must be added to facilitate it. But that is no different than this:

Are we talking about just lore justifications, or are we talking about the technical requirements of implementation? Because if we are talking about lore justifications, then there is zero difference between these three classes. All of them are "there's no reason that X couldn't be trained to be a Y". If we are talking about the technical requirements of implementation i.e. the DH intro happens in the context of Legion, then I feel the need to point out that Pandaren and Goblin druids or paladins are ALSO "physically impossible" simply because right now the plethora of forms required for druid or mounts required for paladin are "not a thing".

We are talking about future implementation of race-class combinations so what is currently in the game is sort of irrelevant.

Adding a new 1-3 time-agnostic intro for DH similar to the DK 2.0 one would be a very minimal addition compared to even one additional druid race's implementation requirements.

Who even creates new death knights now? There is no Lich King anymore. And well, Dracthyr were still asleep in stasis till Dragonflight.
Unless a dracthyr used Chromie time to get back to earlier times, died while doing so and got resurrected as a death knight.
I mean...that can be a thing.

[Thros]

I would agree, but Mortis already has that gem color. So I wonder...

Good point, but then again for a while different powers share some very similar color palettes, like fel/life/death of maldraxxus/mortis green to fel/nightmare/life/anima red, but then some of those do fall in the same category of life, so I'm unsure, but you are probably right.

[Wangming]

???? This is a completely arbitrary distinction. There is no difference between the two. There could be Goblin Demon Hunters wandering Azeroth right now, because there have been ten years in which Horde Goblins have been around and fighting alongside Demon Hunters. What has stopped anyone from joining the Illidari in the decade during which they've been actively fighting alongside, and as part of, the Alliance and Horde?

DH is also a blank slate. There is nothing about the class that fundamentally says "oh you HAVE to have been part of the raid on Marduum and sealed in the vault of the wardens!", that is just their current intro. Just like a hypothetical Pandaren druid's current intro takes place either on Wandering Isle (where they had no one to learn druidism from) or Exile's reach, which takes place before DF when there weren't any Pandaren druids.


Evokers are uniquely distinct because their class is biologically derived. They aren't taught, they are just dragons doing dragon stuff.

To expand on this Pandaren druid blank slate stuff.
If you talk to Mojo Stormstout on Azuremyst Isle, he was there when the Exodar crashed. As per current lore he was always there and Draenei monks could have existed as early as TBC.

Same with Blood Elves. They could train as a monk even though joining the Horde is at the end of the starting area. Blood Elf monks could have joined the Horde before Pandaren monks did. (Pandaren joined after the cataclysm)

[Hitei]

Who even creates new death knights now? There is no Lich King anymore. And well, Dracthyr were still asleep in stasis till Dragonflight.
Unless a dracthyr used Chromie time to get back to earlier times, died while doing so and got resurrected as a death knight.
I mean...that can be a thing.

The Lich King was never needed. This is just an erroneous understanding of how they work. If you go do the old DK intro you will see that your fellow DK trainees, the NPCs that you run around with, duel, who fight stuff as you make your way through the Scarlet Enclave and who fight with you at the Battle of Light's Hope and defect alongside the rest of the Ebon Blade--were all raised by normal, no-named, ordinary Necromancers of Acherus.

The Ebon Blade still has necromancers in its ranks, so there isn't anything stopping the Ebon Blade from raising fallen newer races to come back as new Death Knights.

[Pyrophax]

We are obviously talking about a lore justification.

As of right now, there could be Goblin Druids wandering Azeroth (and, I mean, we do have Pandaren Druids, Blood Elves Druid, Human druids, Night Elf Paladins, etc. already). They could literally add them, right now, without changing anything else, and it would be fine. Our character is, for all intents and purposes, a blank slate, with no prior history, and no age or anything.

You couldn't really do that with DHs or Evokers right now. The Hero classes are not blank slates, they have a backstory.

You can't just put a Goblin into the DH starting zone, because it wouldn't make any sense. Illidan, specifically trained Elves. They simply wouldn't be on Mardum.
Even more so with Evokers. Right now, it would make absolutely no sense. There would be no reason for a Goblin Evoker to be locked up.

And yeah, of course, Blizzard can do whatever they want, they could make a new scenario, however, the Hero classes actually need justification because most hero classes aren't just a thing that can be taught. Shamanism can be taught. Druidism can be taught. Paladins can be taught.

You can't really "teach" someone to be a Demon Hunter. You can't really "teach" someone to be an Evoker. You can't really "teach" someone to be a Death Knight.

Fr DH same thing as DKs started experience should work. For Elf races keep old starting zone, for new ones - short backstory and 2-3 quests leading into noob isle.

For Evokers - things a little more complicated. You can't be Evoker and not be lizzard-like creature. You can't flop your wings if you don't have wings. Same with all dragonic magic. There is no way to empower mortal to use evoker magic, make mortal capable to do it.
At least yet. I dunno how will look taurens or gnomes flying with "Breath of eons"-like spells, how justify evokers without lizzards.
Visage is entire different story. This require no additional job aside customizations to old race models. In core it should be old slim lizzards.

[Hitei]

To expand on this Pandaren druid blank slate stuff.
If you talk to Mojo Stormstout on Azuremyst Isle, he was there when the Exodar crashed. As per current lore he was always there and Draenei monks could have existed as early as TBC.

Same with Blood Elves. They could train as a monk even though joining the Horde is at the end of the starting area. Blood Elf monks could have joined the Horde before Pandaren monks did. (Pandaren joined after the cataclysm)

This is just minor retconning though. Mojo was added to Azuremyst in MoP and just given text saying "I've been here since the crash!". This isn't really blank state stuff, it's stuff that was amended to existing areas AFTER to help justify race-class combinations that were being implemented in later expansions. The lore time window for a race-class combination as retroactively defined isn't really helpful to this debate.

Tomorrow they could give Altruis some line about how years ago he once tracked a demon to the Wandering Isle and now suddenly "Pandaren demon hunters could have existed as early as MoP"

[Kiivar86]

I was running an alt through the start of WoD just yesterday, as you need to do that in order to have the garrison hearthstone work. I don't really have much need to go to Draenor anymore as I got all the mounts and junk that I want from it, but you never know.

Anyway, as I was doing the intro, I was reminded that I don't think Blizzard has ever really reached the same level as the WoD intro. While it would be nice to have a skip for it for alts now, it does a very good job of introducing characters both on your side and the enemy, in a way I don't feel any other intro has done yet. I hope they reach that level again with Midnight.

Whatever other problems WoD had, I think its start was pretty damn solid.

[Wangming]

Tomorrow they could give Altruis some line about how years ago he once tracked a demon to the Wandering Isle and now suddenly "Pandaren demon hunters could have existed as early as MoP"

Exactly. We don't even need new starting areas, just a new NPC or even a new piece of dialogue for an existing NPC.

Have one of them saysay: You know, racename, it is surprising how far you got. We only kidnapped you for food on our long journey, but you proved to be ever bit the fighter we were, perhaps even more. And now we fight side by side. Ironic, isn't it?

There you fucking have it.

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I was running an alt through the start of WoD just yesterday, as you need to do that in order to have the garrison hearthstone work. I don't really have much need to go to Draenor anymore as I got all the mounts and junk that I want from it, but you never know.

Anyway, as I was doing the intro, I was reminded that I don't think Blizzard has ever really reached the same level as the WoD intro. While it would be nice to have a skip for it for alts now, it does a very good job of introducing characters both on your side and the enemy, in a way I don't feel any other intro has done yet. I hope they reach that level again with Midnight.

Whatever other problems WoD had, I think its start was pretty damn solid.

On the other hand there is BfA where now both Teldrassil and Lordaeron are skipped. God forbid we see how the conflict started.
Oh well, guess there is only a few years till BfA classic. Or remix.

[Sondrelk]

I was running an alt through the start of WoD just yesterday, as you need to do that in order to have the garrison hearthstone work. I don't really have much need to go to Draenor anymore as I got all the mounts and junk that I want from it, but you never know.

Anyway, as I was doing the intro, I was reminded that I don't think Blizzard has ever really reached the same level as the WoD intro. While it would be nice to have a skip for it for alts now, it does a very good job of introducing characters both on your side and the enemy, in a way I don't feel any other intro has done yet. I hope they reach that level again with Midnight.

Whatever other problems WoD had, I think its start was pretty damn solid.

Legion is still the strongest opening for an expansion for me. Starting with losing on the Broken Shore in that amazing scenario. And then really feeling the Legion invasion in the old zones until we climatically escape Legion bombardment in Dalaran.

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Exactly. We don't even need new starting areas, just a new NPC or even a new piece of dialogue for an existing NPC.

Have one of them saysay: You know, racename, it is surprising how far you got. We only kidnapped you for food on our long journey, but you proved to be ever bit the fighter we were, perhaps even more. And now we fight side by side. Ironic, isn't it?

There you fucking have it.

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On the other hand there is BfA where now both Teldrassil and Lordaeron are skipped. God forbid we see how the conflict started.
Oh well, guess there is only a few years till BfA classic. Or remix.

So many great openings skipped. Still salty about not getting that boat ride from Stormwind when you start the Vashj'ir questline, and instead just get teleported to the sunken ship with no explanation for what happened.

[Makorus]

Exactly. We don't even need new starting areas, just a new NPC or even a new piece of dialogue for an existing NPC.

Have one of them saysay: You know, racename, it is surprising how far you got. We only kidnapped you for food on our long journey, but you proved to be ever bit the fighter we were, perhaps even more. And now we fight side by side. Ironic, isn't it?

There you fucking have it.

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On the other hand there is BfA where now both Teldrassil and Lordaeron are skipped. God forbid we see how the conflict started.
Oh well, guess there is only a few years till BfA classic. Or remix.

It's absolutely crazy to me that the whole War of the Thorns stuff was Pre-Patch only.

[Al Gorefiend]

They are not. Big and stupid orges will be like mechagnomes or Kul-tirans, with 0.1% of population.
Same with naga, on par with Dracthyrs.
People like elves for a reason. And HE crowd not dead bc of it too. People like play beautyful characters, not some bulb of fat or slimy fish.

But catgirls Ethereals?
Oh boi, they will fill their offices with cash instantly.

Why cater to that type of audience, they have plenty of their own games and IPs where it is all sex appeal at all times with little story like Genshin. WoW didn't blow up in the mid 2000s because of sexy night elves in every ad. In fact they advertised big badass "epic" Orcs.

WoW still maintains a healthy population of non-gooners, the combined population of the ugly races on Horde still exceeds the population of NBs and BEs, so this is all to say, Ogres will do just fine

[Sondrelk]

It's absolutely crazy to me that the whole War of the Thorns stuff was Pre-Patch only.

Almost wonder whether the developers tried to hide it after realizing it made the Horde seem irredeemable.

[Makorus]

Why cater to that type of audience, they have plenty of their own games and IPs where it is all sex appeal at all times with little story like Genshin. WoW didn't blow up in the mid 2000s because of sexy night elves in every ad. In fact they advertised big badass "epic" Orcs.

WoW still maintains a healthy population of non-gooners, the combined population of the ugly races on Horde still exceeds the population of NBs and BEs, so this is all to say, Ogres will do just fine

https://youtu.be/vlVSJ0AvZe0?t=70

???

Literally the second shot of the original cinematic is a close up of a Night Elf with boobs out and everything.

The default cover of WoW is this



(I know there's a Horde one, but who has actually seen that irl?)

There's a reason the Horde side of Vanilla feels so unfinished compared to Alliance, because it wasn't the main priority.

the combined population of the ugly races on Horde still exceeds the population of NBs and BEs, so this is all to say, Ogres will do just fine

Wow, the combination of 11 races being higher than the combination of 2 is not the slam dunk you think it is, my dude

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Almost wonder whether the developers tried to hide it after realizing it made the Horse seem irredeemable.

It's incredibly weird anyway because the Horde/Alliance version are completely different, which would be fine if they make it a POV-type thing but it's not.

Because if you play the Horde side, it doesn't actually seem that bad, but then you play the Alliance side and it's just Warcrime after Warcrime from the Horde.

[Al Gorefiend]

https://youtu.be/vlVSJ0AvZe0?t=70

???

Literally the second shot of the original cinematic is a close up of a Night Elf with boobs out and everything.

The default cover of WoW is this



(I know there's a Horde one, but who has actually seen that irl?)

There's a reason the Horde side of Vanilla feels so unfinished compared to Alliance, because it wasn't the main priority.



Wow, the combination of 11 races being higher than the combination of 2 is not the slam dunk you think it is, my dude

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It's incredibly weird anyway because the Horde/Alliance version are completely different, which would be fine if they make it a POV-type thing but it's not.

Because if you play the Horde side, it doesn't actually seem that bad, but then you play the Alliance side and it's just Warcrime after Warcrime from the Horde.

So what you're saying is, a gruff, male dwarf is featured even more than the female elf. Cinematic even opens with one

[Magistrate]

They should just make gnomes less "one-note." There could be a sect that rejects technology and opts for simpler living. I guess there's the sand gnomes ... whatever they are ...

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I mean, they don't even have to reject technology. They could just have a hyper fixation on ecology and growing shit.

They need to redo tanaris and add a weird mad max faction of gnomes with grimy/gritty customizations you can unlock for xmog and gnome racial customization by earning renown with them. They have a brutal tech/racing/junk town existing in opposition to gadgetzan. Would also help use up some of the mostly unused spaced of tanaris, give strength back to the faction conflict, give the zone more narrative focus, and given gnomes another identity to pull from.