Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Revamp Man]

I can't wait to see Amirdrassil grow up... the Green flight is definitely my favorite (Night Elves too <3).



Don't worry, it's not an unpopular opinion... i love too.

SL was just weird
The writing team couldn't stick to one thing and instead we got like 5 different explanations for the eternal ones

[ChronoSul]

If true, can't wait to hear how their retroactive and nonsensical explanation as to why there are only seven seats in the Seat of the Pantheon.

Easy Make her Like Hestia from greek myth who while part of the Olympian gods did not have a throne on Mount Olympus. Given the little lore we got for her we know personality wise is actually similar to Hestia so its not that far fetched

[Catastrophy349]

I would love to see more of the cosmic forces lore and stuff happen in game. However, it needs to be properly set up. If 9.0 set up the SL, then 10.0 we went into the SL, I think it could have worked.

[Luck4]

I would love to see more of the cosmic forces lore and stuff happen in game. However, it needs to be properly set up. If 9.0 set up the SL, then 10.0 we went into the SL, I think it could have worked.

As someone that dislikes cosmic planes exploration (not forces), I think they could work if they were presented by playable races' perspectives and inner conflicts; let me explain:

In WC3 we learned about the Burning Legion and Scourge through Humans/Orcs/Elves' eyes, not through Demons/Undeads; the plague and the legion invasion started in their homeland, and the turmoil created the reason to push forward at the same time that iconic characters from the playable factions were being developed to take a role from the enemies perspective, such as Illidan (Night Elf) and Arthas (Human), that's why WC3 is so iconic.

That's what I think WoW is missing recently, build-up. The only story that I liked in Dragonflight is the Black Dragonflight resolution because it's the only story that's following a great arc that started back in Vanilla and gave more context to characters such as Sabelian introduced in Burning Crusade, Wrathion introduced in Cataclysm, Ebyssian in Legion, and ofc Deathwing (Neltharion), but other than that, the Incarnates/Primalist plot feels weak as most of SL was... I think if Blizzard had used Twilight's Hammer instead of this new faction to give more context to these Incarnates, the story would improve a lot.

Shadowlands announcement, for instance, I think would've been a lot more exciting if in BFA we had learned more about Zovaal and the Maw after 8.2, and instead of fighting N'zoth and the Black Empire in 8.3, we could have fought a reformed Scourge with forces mostly from Shadowlands led by Sylvanas and Nathanos, and an empowered version of Nathanos could've been the last boss, after defeating him we would learn through the cinematic that Sylvanas went to Icecrown to open the rift.

For Shadowlands expansion itself, I think the covenants and its zones felt too out of place with so few Azerothian characters, so instead of having only a very few characters as we saw in most zones and covenants, I think the perfect scenario would be having many more Azerothian characters, but as ghosts to keep their aesthetic and resemblance, such as Kael'thas/Garrosh alongside most of their followers in Revendreth, Gronmash/Vashj/Kel'thuzad alongside most of their followers in Maldraxxus, Ysera/Caerne and most Night Elves, Tauren, and Trolls that died before BFA in Ardenweald, Uther/Tyrion/Rakeesh(Velen's Son)/Anasterian Sunstrider/Lirath Windrunner and many others that had tragic death before BFA in Bastion, and in the Maw, we would have, just for nostalgic sake, some Arthas/Lich King followers.

But sadly we only got a few known faces here and there and a ton of stories about characters nobody gives a s**t about.

- -

I'm 99% sure 11.0 isn't a World Revamp at this point, so my last hope is that 11.0 focuses on the playable race's lore and how they're going to handle the new threat, instead of helping foreigns and seeing all the plot from their perspective, as we got in Shadowlands and Dragonflight.

[Luck4]

Interesting. What makes you think so? :-)

The story direction mostly, but also the lack of data mining hints that couldn't be mistaken as "something else" (Trading Post/New Azerothian Continent). Because as it stands now, the only stuff that could indicate a World Revamp are the Human buildings added in 9.1; everything else: the HD gear, the ships, and a bunch of other models could fit in the "something else" category.

There's also the deja-vu feeling from past expansion speculations. Every time since the 8.0 thread, we thought the next expansion would be a World Revamp early on, but as we move close to the announcement, the hints/interviews/"leaks" make us change to a soft revamp, then partial, then just a few zones, until the reveal came and we have nothing at all.

[Hitei]

We shouldn't just ignore all the evidence we do possess. Some kind of a revamp seems likely, whether large or small.

It's not being ignored, there 's just lots of holes in the "evidence"

New buildings and creature models get added all the time, it doesn't mean anything. We got new vanilla human guard towers six years ago, but the past three expansions haven't been revamps, even if the updated models are part of a long term plan to update things, there's nothing about that to suggest that 11.0 is going to be a revamp expansion. It could be 13.0. It could be that 11.2 graphically updates a couple zones like 8.1 did.

Dragonflight and 11.0 aren't sequels to Cataclysm and I wish you'd stop just treating this theory as factual. Dragonflight is, at best, a spritual successor to the theme of Cataclysm. There is nothing to suggest 11.0 will have anything at all to do with it. This logic isn't even internally consistent. If anything, Dragonflight should be the revamp because it's the one that mimics Cata.

Six of the nine expansions are set on Azeroth and involve a major event and a villain who wants to take over. Nothing about this is evidence for an expansion. The world soul being important and potentially waking up has been an ongoing plot point for three expansions, three expansions that weren't revamps.

Avaloren isn't any more "maybe one day" than crap like the heritage armor quests. K'aresh and Undermine aren't any more "patch zone" than any other expansion locale.


There's very little actual evidence for a revamp coming, and several large pieces of evidence against it: That we know they plan on making Dragonflight the new leveling experience; that they bothered to put effort into a really minor graphical update of Darkshore and Arathi in BfA--something that doesn't make much sense if they've been working for several expansions now on an actual revamp; that the "hints" about storylines moving forward are all shit that isn't going to happen anytime soon (for example, seeds to regrow Durotar were only just planted with the explicit statement that the forest returning would take time.

It's effectively no different than any other potential expansion concept.

[Nymrohd]

If true, can't wait to hear how their retroactive and nonsensical explanation as to why there are only seven seats in the Seat of the Pantheon.

My idea would be that she never had a Seat because she was never a member of the Pantheon.
Until explicitly said otherwise, I stick to the original canon (which has not yet been retconned) that the World Souls were created on the Physical realm as a result of the clash of external forces (originally Void and Light but possibly all six forces). Which means that the Titans' of the Pantheon relationship with Order is not innate. As Zereth Ordos somehow gained the loyalty? of the Pantheon (either be Aman'Thul discovering it or by Order's forces sending emissaries to the Pantheon like e.g. the Constellar?) perhaps Amitus was a different case that was actually contacted by or found the Naaru and Zereth Lumen before the rest of the Pantheon found her. And maybe she departed the Physical Realm and is now part of Light

[Hitei]

Oh ye of little faith.

It's just a coincidence that WoD and BfA have been perfect bridges from old expansions to a Legion and Shadowlands, each of which then effectively concluded the stories of the Burning Legion and the Lich King. :-)

It's also totally random that Dragonflight has been doing the same with Cataclysm, and that most hints now suggest a culmination to the story of the Old Gods and the Void in 11.0.

Yeah it's so much of a "perfect bridge" to pick sections of an expansion and point out how there are similar random bits in other expansions (but only the ones that help the narrative, don't take note of the fact that Legion's Naga and Highborne storylines were a direct bridge from the Naga and Highborne elements in Cata, or that BfA was already a direct sequel to the story in Cata, because y'know, that'd poke all sorts of holes in the theory).

11.0, the expansion after the Old Gods are largely all dead and the Void is just a tease is totally the expansion that represents the culmination of the Old Gods and Void.. I mean, by your own logic in this post BfA effectively concluded the story of the Old Gods, exactly the same way that Legion concluded BC and Shadowlands concluded Wrath, so It's confusing why you think 11.0 is going to cpnclude a storyline that's already over.

It's very easy to see """patterns""" when you pick and choose what connects, ignoring the things that objectively connect but conflict with the pattern and the things that don't really connect unless actively forced.

[Nymrohd]

Without WoD, Legion couldn't have happened.

The only thing you need for Legion to happen is someone to open the Felstorm. It doesn't even have to be Gul'dan, it could be e.g. Varimathras. Azshara could have done it in some 4D chess move to get the Heart of Azeroth created.

[micwini]

The only thing you need for Legion to happen is someone to open the Felstorm. It doesn't even have to be Gul'dan, it could be e.g. Varimathras. Azshara could have done it in some 4D chess move to get the Heart of Azeroth created.

His entire point is that there needs to be setup. If you put Legion after mop, there is no setup apart from Wrathion whining about the Legion coming. WoD build up Gul'dan so he could do it. What-if'ing doesn't help. Ever since they started having expansion stories flow over into each other we have seen this pattern. There is always side themes, but 90% of the setup and story carries over. Revamp or not: If 10.3 doesn't close out the void stuff (like BFA did haphazardly in the last patch ), 11.0 will be focused on void stuff.

[Nymrohd]

His entire point is that there needs to be setup. If you put Legion after mop, there is no setup apart from Wrathion whining about the Legion coming. WoD build up Gul'dan so he could do it. What-if'ing doesn't help. Ever since they started having expansion stories flow over into each other we have seen this pattern. There is always side themes, but 90% of the setup and story carries over. Revamp or not: If 10.3 doesn't close out the void stuff (like BFA did haphazardly in the last patch ), 11.0 will be focused on void stuff.

See, Wrath was set up in Classic, not in TBC. Heck Cata had a stronger set up in TBC than it did in Wrath (Wrath had two minor raids setting up the Twilights but TBC had Sinestra showing up among the Dragonmaw which was a much more direct involvement of Deathwing). MoP had no set up and neither did WoD (not counting the pre-expansion events).

I am not saying we are not getting some Void related but it absolutely could skip and be in 12.0

[micwini]

See, Wrath was set up in Classic, not in TBC. Heck Cata had a stronger set up in TBC than it did in Wrath (Wrath had two minor raids setting up the Twilights but TBC had Sinestra showing up among the Dragonmaw which was a much more direct involvement of Deathwing). MoP had no set up and neither did WoD (not counting the pre-expansion events).

I am not saying we are not getting some Void related but it absolutely could skip and be in 12.0

That was before they had expansions flow over into eachother. WoD started their 2nd version of their development cycles as stated by Ion in that long Preach video. Im not going to 'this is 100% it', but there is a good chance they have a plan of handling larger story threads over the course of 2 expansions instead of one.

[Nymrohd]

I'm 99% sure 11.0 isn't a World Revamp at this point, so my last hope is that 11.0 focuses on the playable race's lore and how they're going to handle the new threat, instead of helping foreigns and seeing all the plot from their perspective, as we got in Shadowlands and Dragonflight.

Yeah, while I like the idea of Avaloren I am not exactly excited about going into a foreign continent and helping the locals deal with their problems. I'd rather deal with OUR problems.

[Kokolums]

When does the revamp of Uthers tomb pay off?

[Hitei]

WoD very specifically reintroduced Khadgar, Draenor, the Burning Legion etc in the limelight, and it also very clearly set the stage for Legion. Without WoD, Legion couldn't have happened. Legion then let us defeat Archimonde, Kil'jaeden and Sargeras once and for all.

BfA very specifically reintroduced Jaina, Sylvanas, the memory of Arthas, etc in the limelight, and it also very clearly set the stage for Shadowlands. Without BfA, Shadowlands couldn't have happened. Shadowlands then let us defeat the Jailer and finally put an end to Arthas' legacy of vengeance and sorrow. Each of his main victims got some closure and were made whole again, in different ways.

Except that your theory falls apart when you point out, as before, that Sylvanas wasn't reintroduced in BfA, she was brought to the forefront in Legion. Jaina was totally irrelevant for Shadowlands and Arthas wasn't involved in BfA or Shadowlands except in tangential passing of shit long done.

Which is exactly why this is a bad argument. Because it doesn't actually go:

Wrath -----> BfA > Shadowlands

BfA is almost entirely irrelevant to Shadowlands, Sylvanas could have dipped after Legion and the story would have been exactly the same minus the wholly tangential Night Warrior arc. The actual progression here is

Wrath --> Cata (an extremely important Sylvanas development) --> Legion (An extremely important continuations of that development) --> BfA (minor development) --> Shadowlands (the conclusion to Legion's setup of Sylvanas' ulterior motives).

But this doesn't match up with the bogus pattern. So instead you ignore two much more important expansions for the setup of the Shadowlands story and pick the three that allow you to pretend that this A --> B>C pattern actually exists.

In fact you're doing the same thing with this hypothetical 11.0. Because an Azshara expansion isn't Cata --> DF > 11.0 it's Cata --> BfA > 11.0, and a Void expansion isn't Cata --> DF > 11.0 its WoD --> Legion > 11.0.

The throughlines of Cataclysm are the Old Gods, which were concluded in BfA and the Elements and Dragons which are being concluded right now.

Dragonflight very specifically reintroduced the Dragon Aspects, the elements, etc in the limelight, and it is also very clearly setting the stage for a Void showdown in 11.0. It's not like Iridikron is planning for the long run. What he's doing is now, here, right at this moment. The prophecy is being fulfilled and the Harbinger is setting its plan in motion to awaken Azeroth and let Azshara rule. We won't necessarily fight the Old Gods, we'll fight and conclude their legacy.

Their Legacy was Ny'alotha. The entire point of Azshara's character is that she wasn't loyal to N'zoth or acting in his interests and wasn't looking to do Old God shit. That you are having to go now argue that it's "an after-conclusion.. to the conclusion!" to maintain this pattern should tell you how legitimate a pattern it is. Legion is more about the Void than Cataclysm was.

I don't understand how you don't see this pattern falling apart. According to your own theory, if 11.0 is an Azshara expansion, DF should have Azshara front and center just like Khadgar and Gul'dan were in WoD, or Jaina and Sylvanas were in BfA. But she's nothing, a brief tease of a secondhand whisper that she's maybe coming eventually. Azshara is to DF what Deathwing was to BC.

But I feel like all of this is just sort of a deflection on your part, because even if we pretend this pattern is factual, nothing about it indicates that 11.0 is likely to be a revamp. It's a pattern about expansion thematics and characters, not expansion locations and design structure. That Wrath added a new class doesn't mean that Shadowlands had to add a new class, BC featured two important new races defining the region didn't mean Legion added new important races. So Cata being a revamp--even in this pattern theory--doesn't somehow mean that 11.0 is also going to be a revamp.

[Hitei]

His entire point is that there needs to be setup. If you put Legion after mop, there is no setup apart from Wrathion whining about the Legion coming. WoD build up Gul'dan so he could do it. What-if'ing doesn't help. Ever since they started having expansion stories flow over into each other we have seen this pattern. There is always side themes, but 90% of the setup and story carries over. Revamp or not: If 10.3 doesn't close out the void stuff (like BFA did haphazardly in the last patch ), 11.0 will be focused on void stuff.

That was before they had expansions flow over into eachother. WoD started their 2nd version of their development cycles as stated by Ion in that long Preach video. Im not going to 'this is 100% it', but there is a good chance they have a plan of handling larger story threads over the course of 2 expansions instead of one.

This isn't actually a pattern though. Shadowlands didn't close out the First Ones or cosmic stuff but it was left behind for completely different themes. Legion opened the cosmic void stuff but BfA wasn't a void expansion.

Whether a theme continues on or not is totally arbitrary. That's why the pattern is bullshit. There's no actual pattern of

Expansion 1, (other expansion A), (other expansion B), Expansion 2, Expansion 3

It's just that every expansion has side themes, so it's easy to pick out random parts of 1 2 and 3 that connect, ignoring that A and B also have connections to them, and declare that this must be how it always works, and that the specific arbitrary things picked for focus must be the right one. Do you know what Catalcysm had that DF also had? Underground and sunken regions. Wow, 11.0 Undermine expansion confirmed, the setup is there, look at the pattern.

-

The two example cases for the pattern don't even match each other, let alone the supposed third:

BC --> WoD > Legion
Wrath --> BfA > Shadowlands
Cata --> DF > 11.0

Wod is a revamp of BC's location and Legion deals with the main enemy of BC coming back.
BFa is only tangentially linked to Wrath because Syvlanas is a player in it and Shadowlands shares Wrath's abstract theme.

DF rehashes the general themes of DF, 11.0 is... a revamp because Cata had one?

[Woggmer]

That's what I think WoW is missing recently, build-up. The only story that I liked in Dragonflight is the Black Dragonflight resolution because it's the only story that's following a great arc that started back in Vanilla and gave more context to characters such as Sabelian introduced in Burning Crusade, Wrathion introduced in Cataclysm, Ebyssian in Legion, and ofc Deathwing (Neltharion), but other than that, the Incarnates/Primalist plot feels weak as most of SL was... I think if Blizzard had used Twilight's Hammer instead of this new faction to give more context to these Incarnates, the story would improve a lot.

The only thing we've got in terms of call backs to Cata or any connection of the Twilight Cult with Primalists is the Worldbreakers which were a faction of Black Dragons that were preparing for Deathwing's destruction on the land, but that one of their generals was actually a member of the Twilight's Hammer disguised as a dragon and was brainwashing them to restart the Cataclysm.

While it should make sense that the Primalists absorbed what was left of the Twilight's Hammer as their own, we don't know the full facts. Though it is safe to say that they're not connected. The Twilight's Hammer has always been interested in fulfilling a doomsday prophecy as they were initially an Orc Clan, but the last few surviving members took in other races outside of just orcs and formed it into a cult bent on worshipping the Old Gods. They along with Deathwing, Ragneros, and several others only want to see destruction to the planet as the Old Gods told them.

Meanwhile the Primalists along with the Incarnates, don't seem interested in the idea of destroying the planet like the Twilight's Hammer, but rather they only want to defy the titans as they don't want to be turned into a byproduct like with the Dragonflights, and allow a choice to be in touch with their elemental roots. While we don't know Raszageth's view of it, we do know that Fyrakk and Vyranoth believed in the idea of them being free, but Iridikron is the only one who actually has dark ties to the Old Gods and has struck bargains with them to keep this rebellion going.

I should also include this part because it would've explained quite a bit about the Incarnates themselves, but even Blizzard never brings this information up again aside from two pre-press-release interviews.

In an early pre-release interview, the Primal Incarnates were described as "followers of Galakrond" and "children of Galakrond [who believe that] dragons are the apex of creation [and] should be served by mortals, rather than the other way around." This has not been mentioned or alluded to since.

Reference.

I don't know if it makes sense to the story now, but it was something interesting.

TL;DR version: There isn't any solid connection between the Twilight's Hammer with the Primalist... Unless Iridikron decides to get them involved because he's working for the Void. (Kinda like how like Kilrogg Deadeye joined forces with the Legion in WoD.)

[micwini]

This isn't actually a pattern though. Shadowlands didn't close out the First Ones or cosmic stuff but it was left behind for completely different themes. Legion opened the cosmic void stuff but BfA wasn't a void expansion.

Whether a theme continues on or not is totally arbitrary. That's why the pattern is bullshit. There's no actual pattern of

Expansion 1, (other expansion A), (other expansion B), Expansion 2, Expansion 3

It's just that every expansion has side themes, so it's easy to pick out random parts of 1 2 and 3 that connect, ignoring that A and B also have connections to them, and declare that this must be how it always works, and that the specific arbitrary things picked for focus must be the right one. Do you know what Catalcysm had that DF also had? Underground and sunken regions. Wow, 11.0 Undermine expansion confirmed, the setup is there, look at the pattern.

-

The two example cases for the pattern don't even match each other, let alone the supposed third:

BC --> WoD > Legion
Wrath --> BfA > Shadowlands
Cata --> DF > 11.0

Wod is a revamp of BC's location and Legion deals with the main enemy of BC coming back.
BFa is only tangentially linked to Wrath because Syvlanas is a player in it and Shadowlands shares Wrath's abstract theme.

DF rehashes the general themes of DF, 11.0 is... a revamp because Cata had one?

You are naming the side themes, local stories and systematic similarities instead of the overarching story. You debunk a pattern based on the 10% of stuff that differs from it. Try to focus on the 90%. You are mixing and matching stuff just to try to make to have your point make sense, which is weird considering because you accused the other guy of the same thing while he has good arguments and reasoning to support his claim. You don't.

I even said earlier that 11.0 doesn't need to be a revamp. It is going to deal with void unless they close it out in the final patch like BFA.
Currently my bet is on one of the following 3:

1. Void arc is closed of or put on the shelf in 10.3. 10.3 contains void zone (either karesh or another Zereth (please no)). Next expansion is either revamp and/or titan related. Avaloren possible.

2. Titan arc is closed of or put on the shelf in 10.3. 10.3 is Avaloren. Next expansion is either revamp and/or void related. Karesh/whaetever

3. Both Titan and Void arc are closed of in 10.3. Next expansion is revamp.

Each of these 3 continue the pattern where 11.0 naturally flows from DF and will close of all cata related stories. 1 gives revamp with titan stuff which automatically would focus on titan stuff, because its spread around the world.
2 gives Void/revamp would finish of void aspect of cata. Possibly twilights hammer and dealing with Xal atath and maybe other old gods.
3. Would focus more on healing the world which is a direct sequal to restoring the damage done in cata.

They could always come up with an expansion out of the blue (Warlords), but currently, this seems to be logical next step in the story.

[Holdodlig]

You are naming the side themes, local stories and systematic similarities instead of the overarching story. You debunk a pattern based on the 10% of stuff that differs from it. Try to focus on the 90%. You are mixing and matching stuff just to try to make to have your point make sense, which is weird considering because you accused the other guy of the same thing while he has good arguments and reasoning to support his claim. You don't.

I even said earlier that 11.0 doesn't need to be a revamp. It is going to deal with void unless they close it out in the final patch like BFA.
Currently my bet is on one of the following 3:

1. Void arc is closed of or put on the shelf in 10.3. 10.3 contains void zone (either karesh or another Zereth (please no)). Next expansion is either revamp and/or titan related. Avaloren possible.

2. Titan arc is closed of or put on the shelf in 10.3. 10.3 is Avaloren. Next expansion is either revamp and/or void related. Karesh/whaetever

3. Both Titan and Void arc are closed of in 10.3. Next expansion is revamp.

Each of these 3 continue the pattern where 11.0 naturally flows from DF and will close of all cata related stories. 1 gives revamp with titan stuff which automatically would focus on titan stuff, because its spread around the world.
2 gives Void/revamp would finish of void aspect of cata. Possibly twilights hammer and dealing with Xal atath and maybe other old gods.
3. Would focus more on healing the world which is a direct sequal to restoring the damage done in cata.

They could always come up with an expansion out of the blue (Warlords), but currently, this seems to be logical next step in the story.

You don't need to close any of those arcs if you want a revamp. I think they are setting more threats. If you want a revamp, you won't only have one single enemy. Since Alliance and Horde are pretty much at peace and this will probably stay like that for a while with interfaction content, I'd rather say Blizzard is going to push for different kind of enemies, eventually linked to either titans or demons, light or void etc.

[Mecheon]

I think the most anti-revamp thing (Except for Dragonflight being the new levelling zone) remains Kalimdor being moved on the world map

That wouldn't have happened if it was a revamp. They had to make room for Something on the other side. Everything is all speculation, of course, but the one thing we know for sure is they moved Kalimdor on the world map