Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Wyrt]

He wasn’t attempting to win over the Trolls or the Tauren. All he cared about were the Orcs and bar a small handful, he had the vast majority willing to die for him.

Saurfang, Thrall, and Eitrigg weren't won over by him either.

The entire claim on charisma is basically hinging on random no name orcs while nearly every important Horde character, both orc and non-orc, opposed him.

[Santandame]

Bro how was she not written to be charismatic? When you meet her she's smooth, intimate, seductive, some chars even admire her strength. She's mysterious enough to keep me and you guessing what she's about and what her end goals are. She's def charismatic in my book.

None of which actually equates to charisma.

None of the allies she makes over the course of the story are inspired by her. I’ve mentioned it earlier. The Nerubians, Gallywix or Alleria, Locus Walker and co weren’t devoted to her. They had no delusions about her whatsoever. They didn’t follow her or ally with her out of loyalty. They knew exactly what she was, but she had something they needed or something they wanted and they were willing to work with her to get it.

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Saurfang, Thrall, and Eitrigg weren't won over by him either.

The entire claim on charisma is basically hinging on random no name orcs while nearly every important Horde character, both orc and non-orc, opposed him.

Okay, so a handful? Like I said?

It doesn’t matter if they were random or no name. They still followed him on mass. They were buying what he was selling. They were loyal to him, even fanatic in regards to him. That’s charisma. Not everyone is fooled by it but he still possessed charisma to pull in large groups of people. It’s exactly why nearly every cult leader in history was charismatic.

We are not arguing over the definition of charisma lol. It’s gotten beyond silly.

[Wyrt]

Okay, so a handful? Like I said?

It doesn’t matter if they were random or no name. They still followed him on mass. They were buying what he was selling. They were loyal to him, even fanatic in regards to him. That’s charisma. Not everyone is fooled by it but he still possessed charisma to pull in large groups of people. It’s exactly why nearly every cult leader in history was charismatic.

We are not arguing over the definition of charisma lol. It’s gotten beyond silly.

"He's totally charismatic, he just failed to win over any actual lore characters"

[Houle]

It is relevant. Xal’atath wasn’t written to be a charismatic character. As I said, we can see by the literal source material that she wasn’t written to be charismatic based off how the characters respond and react to her. Regardless of whether, you, or some one else does find her charismatic, the very character down to how she is written and portrayed isn’t with the intent to be charismatic.

You can emotively sigh all you like. The original point was the similarities between the characters. At no point was it stated about the players perceive the characters to be. We were discussing the redundancies of using a character you considered too similar to Xal’atath, in the expansion following the one Xal was featured prominently in.

Yeah, and when discussing the similarities between 2 characers and how it might be redundant to use both of them at the same time, then the way the players perceive said characters is an essential part of that discussion lol. Bc the players are the people who are gonna judge the story. And if the players perceive them as too similar and get annoyed about that, then the original intention of the writer matters pretty much jack.

And by the way, you are still trying to move the goalpost, by only doubling down on the "charismatic" part the entire time, while ignoring all the other stuff that makes them similar.
Like how they are both the same type of smug and arrogant. Like how they are both "elves" (in some way). Like how they both like to show off and boast about their perceived superiority every chance they get. Like how an essential part of both their stories is that both of them made a deal with a far stronger void entity and pretended to serve them, all while planning to backstab and take their place the entire time.

But this is becoming somewhat absurd. If you are actually trying to deny that the audiences entire perception of a character is absolutely essential to the question of wether or not the audience might think 2 characters are too similar, then we can stop this discussion.

[genegerbread]

Not sure if this has been asked yet, but based on the Gamescom schedule-- do we think we're gonna be seeing a cinematic trailer and features trailer on the 19th? I know the developer panel (among many other events) happen within the next few days, but I at least hope we're gonna be getting a look at the features trailer alongside the cinematic on Tues. Would hope we get a glimpse at everything so we can unpack it before they do the deep-dives.

Traditionally, I know they've shown both together since BFA, so I would assume it would be the same this time around as well.

QUICK EDIT: Ik we're def getting the cinematic reveal, just wondering if we think we're getting a features reveal too

[Mecheon]

Says more about how stupid orcs are than how charismatic the character is.

A charismatic leader doesn't immediately have Cairne and Vol'jin wanting to kill him.

Garrosh was very charismatic. He stole the show in Shadowlands with a single appearance

[The-Shan]

I dunno if anyones posted this yet, but the expansions name is kinda clever, since its 12.0

[Santandame]

Yeah, and when discussing the similarities between 2 characers and how it might be redundant to use both of them at the same time, then the way the players perceive said characters is an essential part of that discussion lol. Bc the players are the people who are gonna judge the story. And if the players perceive them as too similar and get annoyed about that, then the original intention of the writer matters pretty much jack.

And by the way, you are still trying to move the goalpost, by only doubling down on the "charismatic" part the entire time, while ignoring all the other stuff that makes them similar.
Like how they are both the same type of smug and arrogant. Like how they are both "elves" (in some way). Like how they both like to show off and boast about their perceived superiority every chance they get. Like how an essential part of both their stories is that both of them made a deal with a far stronger void entity and pretended to serve them, all while planning to backstab and take their place the entire time.

Pretty much every WoW villain in the lore is smug and arrogant. By that logic we shouldn’t reuse the vast majority of villains. The same with boasting about their perceived superiority. Them being Elves is really beginning to scratch the bottom of the barrel too.

Using your logic should we have not used Xal’atath so soon after Sylvanas? Sylvanas is female, an elf, arrogant, enjoyed gloating & boasting. She also worked with a far stronger entity who she held no loyalty to except he was Death related instead of Void related.

Other characters who were smug and believed themselves to be superior (you know, a very popular trait in villains) - Garrosh (used the powers of the Void) Iridikron (made a deal with Xal, imagine he’d want to betray her st some point due to her wanting to consume Azeroth), Denathrius (made a deal with a greater entity who it’s very likely he planned to betray, oh wait, he did at one point didn’t he?). I could go on?


Smug, believing they are superior to all others, s and making deals with more powerful entities are not traits exclusive to just Azshara and Xal’atath. However, when completely diving into their characters on a deeper level, it’s ostensibly clear that they are both different - down to their motivations as a character and so on.

I’m not going to continue to humour the point about the goal posts because it’s even more petty than arguing about the definition of charisma.

[Syegfryed]

Says more about how stupid orcs are than how charismatic the character is.

A charismatic leader doesn't immediately have Cairne and Vol'jin wanting to kill him.

That is more that Cairne and vol'jin were written to be absolutely stupid morons.

The tauren and the trolls liked Garrosh, the common folk did. Only the leaders who didnt.

[Limayria]

Garrosh had the charisma of an edgy 13 year old screaming into the void on 4chan.

The narrative around garrosh predicted the "incel revolution" he has charisma in the same way people like Andrew Tate do, they prey upon the dysphoria felt by young men in a world where traditional ideals of what it means to be a "man" are changing and the person they wanted to be when they were kids is now considered a bad thing, like with the orcs how they went from being raised in a culture where strength and honor were the most important things to becoming an adult in a culture where cooperation and compromise and very important thanks to the change in leadership from people like ogrim and guldan and grom to people like thrall and carine

Much like how many young men in the world today feel alienated from their identity as men for a variety of factors, from job market instability to changing sexual and social dynamics between men and women as a result of women gaining more autonomy to even a shift in the way our culture views what is and isn't violence and what kind of violence is/isn't justified

[Santandame]

The narrative around garrosh predicted the "incel revolution" he has charisma in the same way people like Andrew Tate do, they prey upon the dysphoria felt by young men in a world where traditional ideals of what it means to be a "man" are changing and the person they wanted to be when they were kids is now considered a bad thing, like with the orcs how they went from being raised in a culture where strength and honor were the most important things to becoming an adult in a culture where cooperation and compromise and very important thanks to the change in leadership from people like ogrim and guldan and grom to people like thrall and carine

Much like how many young men in the world today feel alienated from their identity as men for a variety of factors, from job market instability to changing sexual and social dynamics between men and women as a result of women gaining more autonomy to even a shift in the way our culture views what is and isn't violence and what kind of violence is/isn't justified

This took a turn, though you aren’t wrong.

[Alomain]

Hey Blizz employee reading the thread, could you start brainstorming a puzzle to post over the weekend? We could use the hypefuel.

[Houle]

Pretty much every WoW villain in the lore ks smug and arrogant. By that logic we shouldn’t reuse the vast majority of villains. The same with boasting about their perceived superiority. Them being Elves is really beginning to scratch the bottom of the barrel too.

Using your logic should we have not used Xal’atath so soon after Sylvanas? Sylvanas is female, an elf, arrogant, enjoyed gloating & boasting. She also worked with a far stronger entity who she held no loyalty to except he was Death related instead of Void related.

Other characters who were smug and believed themselves to be superior (you know, a very popular trait in villains) - Garrosh (used the powers of the Void) Iridikron (made a deal with Xal, imagine he’d want to betray her st some point due to her wanting to consume Azeroth), Denathrius (made a deal with a greater entity who it’s very likely he planned to betray, oh wait, he did at one point didn’t he?). I could go on?

And now you are picking examples who share *singular" traits, and act like that is even remotely the same thing.

Yeah, a lot of other villains are smug. Yeah, a lot of other villains made deals. Yeah, a lot of vilains dealt with void stuff.

No, not a lot of villains share ALL of those with each other the way Xal and Azsharah do. Ever heard the phrase "The large sum of many small things"?

The only example that you gave that is somewhat comparable is Sylvanas - but guess what, they didnt put Xal and Sylvanas as major characters into the same xpac.
If you remember, that was the original point that started this discussion: that putting Azsharah and Xal, who are both already very similar, together into the same xpac, with the same plot from TWWs culminating patch, would be pretty bad.

Denathrius (made a deal with a greater entity who it’s very likely he planned to betray, oh wait, he did at one point didn’t he?)

Nope he didnt. Other way around. Can you at least get your examples right?

Them being Elves is really beginning to scratch the bottom of the barrel too.

Funny, considering that was the example of their similarities that you yourself gave:

What are the similarities shared between Azshara and Xal apart from being void related, elves and female?

And again, sum of many small things.

I’m not going to continue to humour the point about the goal posts because it’s even more petty than arguing about the definition of charisma.

Ironic, coming from the guy who started arguing about charisma and who started complained about moving the goalpost. Pot calling the kettle black much?

Nobody argued about the definition of charisma. Nobody except you ever even brought it up. You just missed the entire original point, which i and multiple others here have tried to tell you multiple times now, bc you are apparently unable to grasp the difference between in-universe and IRL perception, and why the latter matters very much when talking about how players might react to certain characters.

[Cheezits]

The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[DELUXExSUPREME]

I want to point out to the people who have said that the press kit leaks were fake because Lor'themar has a mustache; he looks to have a goatee in the image and you can create a blood elf with a goatee in game. It definitely could still be AI but it's not because he has a mustache lmao.

[Catastrophy349]

I'm pumped for next week!

[Cheezits]

I want to point out to the people who have said that the press kit leaks were fake because Lor'themar has a mustache; he looks to have a goatee in the image and you can create a blood elf with a goatee in game. It definitely could still be AI but it's not because he has a mustache lmao.

He has a goatee in game and it looks sick.

https://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/scree...mar-theron.jpg

The CGI makes him look like Popeye + Mario.

Also the pic I linked makes his CGI armor look very different, so unless its intentional... yeah.

[Khaza-R]

I want to point out to the people who have said that the press kit leaks were fake because Lor'themar has a mustache; he looks to have a goatee in the image and you can create a blood elf with a goatee in game. It definitely could still be AI but it's not because he has a mustache lmao.

Its very definitely AI. Zoom in on Turalyon's armor and see the extreme asymmetry. Its very, very apparent. No need to try to defend AI trash.

[DELUXExSUPREME]

Its very definitely AI. Zoom in on Turalyon's armor and see the extreme asymmetry. Its very, very apparent. No need to try to defend AI trash.

Oh definitely. I just was mainly talking about the people saying that it was 100% fake because a blood elf had a mustache when you can literally have a full goatee with the mustache included in game lmao

[Cheezits]

To this day I think Lor's model is one of the weirdly best models in Warcraft period, it's really out of another game entirely almost.