Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Nymrohd]

No state or people with any bit of self-preservation or dignity to speak of would genuinely care that they only lost a third (including their core regions and one of their greatest temples) to a bunch of invaders, rather than the rest of it, compared to a scenario where they lose none of it and all these invaders die in a blizzard and/or get eaten on a sacrificial altar. The same point applies about how they didn't lose their land to just the elves, but also to the humans, which were only able to do so due to training and involvement by the elves, might I add and then split the land between them, given that there's ranger lodges as far off as the Hinterlands. The arrival of any elves at all, much like any humans, is a net negative for the Amani Empire and their aim being to remove all these people and reassert power is completely rational. In turn, any alliance with these people because of the void is ridiculous for the same reason, because they've lost monumentally more to them than they did to any space alien and they won their last war with the aqir.

As for why to direct their anger at the elves, that ties into point c) i.e applying the retarded colonial analogy would require humans to also give up their land, pay reparations or give Amani sinecures and Critical Troll Studies, which they obviously won't both because Blizzard wouldn't do this to humans, but also because unlike Zul'aman and outside Jintha'alor and outskirts, the Amani presence south of the Thalassian Pass consists of the dead and some meme tribes. They direct their anger at the elves because when they show up it's next to elves and because they're the main non-Scourge elf antagonist, in reality, Zul'jin's "I hate you, I hate you all." would make for a better motto. When they could get to humans, as they did in the Second War, they did.

That said, your post captures the reasoning why elves accepting any peace is also absolutely absurd, as from their perspective they did not initiate any of these conflicts, their enemy has been completely aggressive at all times and launched every war, and they very pointedly were an isolationist state. The Amani kicked them twice over when they were down, in the Second War and after the Scourge and as noted above, they've zero common interests. No elf has any incentive to compromise or reason to believe such a compromise would hold. The conflict is zero-sum, the very premise of reconciliation is inherently retarded and nonsensical.

Yeah I am not looking for a grand narrative here. I do think that from a lore perspective it would be interesting to learn what the elves built over when they made the Sunwell. Perhaps what Xal'atath is after is not the Sunwell but what the Amani had built below it far earlier; probably not though. It would still be part of the world building I'd want to see when we are looking at Quel'thalas, same with Ban'dinoriel and why it has to fail (so that the elves do not seclude themselves behind impenetrable shields, a classic fantasy trope for high elves). If we do find out why this land was so sacred to the Amani, an offer to allow them access to this land (not possession but not killing them on sight) makes sense in return for helping them against the Void; if the Void needs the Amani to be a threat to QT . . . it's not much of a threat after all is it? Plus I want Blood/High Elf druids and the Amani loa are right there and their forms are those of the local animals that the Blood Elves have associated with in game; lynxes and dragonhawks.

So I expect this to be done and I don't particularly mind it. I did not say they would be integrated or granted privilege in elven society; just that they could be given access to their ancestral lands (access, not control; let them make pilgrimages there) and the two people could stop having a kill on sight policy. It also helps because people want to be able to play Forest Trolls, a clan has been a Horde member since vanilla with the Revantusk after all. And the idea of Alliance Amani is so ridiculous to me thematically so if they are joining the Horde, they need to bury the very literal hatchet (P.S. give us a weapon throwing spec for a class!)

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I think everyone is also overestimating how long she held back the waves.

Because it wasn't very long.

Don't get me wrong, I love Azshara and the fact that she held them at all solo still looks fucking impressive. That seems like tanking the force of a hit from a Titan; she just couldn't tank a combo. But what she did was ineffective because in her arrogance she was trying to hold the entire wave back and keep everything that was hers safe; she probably could have pulled off a smaller spherical shield that would save her and thousands of Highborne close to her and be fine. But that's not Azshara, she wants to rule everything and she will not admit defeat.
I just found the idea that "Azshara is the only one who can do this" stated multiple time in a situation about Silvermoon when we had half an expansion spent in Suramar constantly next to Thalyssra who probably already will be in Silvermoon kind of silly.

[Wyrt]

That said, your post captures the reasoning why elves accepting any peace is also absolutely absurd, as from their perspective they did not initiate any of these conflicts, their enemy has been completely aggressive at all times and launched every war, and they very pointedly were an isolationist state. The Amani kicked them twice over when they were down, in the Second War and after the Scourge and as noted above, they've zero common interests. No elf has any incentive to compromise or reason to believe such a compromise would hold. The conflict is zero-sum, the very premise of reconciliation is inherently retarded and nonsensical.

They initiated conflict with the elf refugees when they first arrived as well. At every turn the Amani are picking fights with them, losing, then crying about it.

[Dracullus]

I have really high hopes for Heroic world tier. Since they abandoned scaling in campaign (I know it had its own problems with feeling less powerful every level) in Shadowlands, leveling main with high item level started feeling like playing old content.

Now we could have choice - want breeze through story and rush to end game? You can. Want to experience it like modern expansion, but something closer to Wrath-MoP era difficulty? You can too - of course assuming it will be tuned correctly.

[Makorus]

Heroic World Tier most definitely wouldn't be used for leveling.

[huth]

Heroic World Tier most definitely wouldn't be used for leveling.

World tiers are certainly something we could use a max level though. Geared characters just bulldoze through launch content like it's not even there at this point.

[Nymrohd]

Yeah I think Heroic World Tier would be an option for people entering world content at a much higher ilvl than it is designed for to make it a bit of a challenge. Probably would scale events and rares up so that you get Veteran gear drops and Champion gear weekly drops.

[shade3891]

Where are all these icons from? I'm a little confused, are these from WA's?

The standard Weakaura Blizzard Atlas, as far as I know the source Blizzard uses to build the UI and all elements.

The icons are as old as WoD so it might be nothing at all.

[Eldryth]

Sure but she failed. Thalyssra only managed by tapping into a well of power but she succeeded. She'd ask for nothing. She'd do it with other mages assisting her.

Thalyssra didn't really have much to do with Suramar's shield. Elisandre- who we killed- led that effort. And according to the Wiki, she used the Eye of Aman'thul (which was last said to be in Dalaran) to do so, though I can't find a source for that. I don't really think Thalyssra would be able to do too much more than any other mage for something like that.


I do think the general idea of there being a barrier makes a lot of sense though. We did recently learn that that's exactly how the K'areshi protected themselves from Dimensius, so we could use a barrier to protect ourselves (and the Sunwell) from a quick loss. And that could justify Quel'thalas being cut off from the rest of the world (and not on the same map as the rest of Eastern Kingdoms).

[Hitei]

I think everyone is also overestimating how long she held back the waves.

Because it wasn't very long.

60 seconds doesn't seem like a long time until you realize that that the mass of one cubic meter of water is like 1000kg and that even an Olympic swimming pool is like 5.5 million pounds worth of water.

Holding a ~150 foot dome against the force of an ocean pouring over the city is an incomprehensible feat. We're talking something like single-handedly levitating Bhurj Khalifa.

[Dracullus]

Heroic World Tier most definitely wouldn't be used for leveling.

Why? In Legion it isn't just max level thing. They recommend it on level 25, but you can turn it any time (they probably think before 25 average player don't have enough tools).

[shade3891]

Heroic World Tier would be cool if it expanded to the entire world not just the new zones. And instead of the normal quest rewards it should provide gold and valor stones or equivalent.

[Nightshade711]

We can write off any story leak without mentions of the voidstorms as fake.
We got the two teasers AND the trading post weapons mentioning it.

[huth]

Why? In Legion it isn't just max level thing. They recommend it on level 25, but you can turn it any time (they probably think before 25 average player don't have enough tools).

But in Lemix leveling is a much bigger part than in normal play. You can barely look at the views without getting a level nowadays.

[Wyrt]

Any detailed story leaks are probably fake. They're not going to go into story details at gamescom beyond very basics. They're certainly not going to do a zone by zone story break down like some of these leaks are doing.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

The idea that a studio based in California is entirely deprived of any political biases is laughable, but I agree with the notion that it's not singularly the insertion of OCs that hit diversity quotas that's a problem inasmuch as the fact said OCs have as much flavor as drywall. Faerin being a black (ding!) female (ding!) amputee (DINGADINGADING) is irrelevant, her miserable character design and non-personality are the problem, plus the fact that the amputee bit is handled in the dumbest way possible by having her take blows to a shield attached to a pauldron over a nub.

Where those political biases do become a problem is where they mingle in unholy union with the already-discussed corporate fixation with smoothing down the setting to appeal to as many people as possible (and in the process ironically appealing to very few), resulting in the setting trending towards eradicating flavor, nuance and potential sources of conflict—I can't say whether corporate decree or personal biases are more responsible for that problem, but it may be a decent bet to say it's a combination of the two.

[Kilpi]

Side note, PLEASE GIVE US PLAYABLE NAGA.

Playable naga would suck so bad because they would have to make them have a visage-esque form and that would just suck. No thanks. Better keep them as enemies and maybe make them a proper threat in an expansion after TLT.

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60 seconds doesn't seem like a long time until you realize that that the mass of one cubic meter of water is like 1000kg and that even an Olympic swimming pool is like 5.5 million pounds worth of water.

Holding a ~150 foot dome against the force of an ocean pouring over the city is an incomprehensible feat. We're talking something like single-handedly levitating Bhurj Khalifa.

It's incredible how fast you went from meters and kilograms to random units

[Xilurm]

I LOVE how Wrath and Shadowlands are paralleled with eachother.

Cataclysm and Dragonflight too.

[Dracullus]

You can barely look at the views without getting a level nowadays.

That is precisely what HC leveling is supposed to fix. It isn't for people who want max level ASAP, it's for people who want leveling to be game again.

[Nymrohd]

Thalyssra didn't really have much to do with Suramar's shield. Elisandre- who we killed- led that effort. And according to the Wiki, she used the Eye of Aman'thul (which was last said to be in Dalaran) to do so, though I can't find a source for that. I don't really think Thalyssra would be able to do too much more than any other mage for something like that.


I do think the general idea of there being a barrier makes a lot of sense though. We did recently learn that that's exactly how the K'areshi protected themselves from Dimensius, so we could use a barrier to protect ourselves (and the Sunwell) from a quick loss. And that could justify Quel'thalas being cut off from the rest of the world (and not on the same map as the rest of Eastern Kingdoms).

My understanding is, the Eye of Aman'thul was used to create the Nightwell and the Well's power is what kept the shield up. And I assume all of them helped raise the shield. Elisande absolutely led the effort but I think all the magisters would have assisted. Thalyssra already has a well of equal or greater strength next to her and she'd have Rommath and others to assist her. And honestly, she is mostly an abjurer in what we've seen of her; magical shields are what we most see her using.

Also AU Elisande is still alive and around for what it's worth.

[Xilurm]

Heroic leveling/world tier or whatever, if implemented specifically for levelling, shouldn't be about the rewards, it should be about the journey.