Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

No one knows what the next expansion is until it drops or we get a Blizzcon Gear leak. So again there will be shifting directions of what people think is the expansion which will mean content creators will switch up repeatedly to cover all bases.

[Scyth]

You're all saying Iridkron is dumb if he thinks he can take on the Titans but what if he actually does? Like they come to check what's up and her murders them all.

He's a schemer, very likely his plan isn't to bring them to Azeroth and fight them himself. He either wants to make them fight something else and weaker them further/have them be killed.

Or he'll get a massive power-up lol

[Nibelheimy]

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He also made a video suggesting the First Ones ordered the Cosmic Forces, rather than made them.

This is also dumb.

I don't think it's that dumb at all, in fact the Shadowlands feels like an ordered version of death. It feels like a manafactured prison, as opposed to a natural cosmic force. We literally have a factory shitting out their titan level death keepers and creating and organising plains of death realms that are all contained and accessed through neat little portals.

Although I've always felt death, order and light as the 'order leaning realms' and void, life, fel as the 'chaos' leaning realms. I think Shadowlands biggest downfall is it just feels like playing through a realm ordered by titans, but bigger titans.

Maybe it would be better if it turned out Death has a more natural realm, but the Shadowlands itself is a big factory sorrounding oribos manafactured to keep it contained and within a desired margin.

[Ameonna]

I don't think it's that dumb at all, in fact the Shadowlands feels like an ordered version of death. It feels like a manafactured prison, as opposed to a natural cosmic force. We literally have a factory shitting out their titan level death keepers and creating and organising plains of death realms that are all contained and accessed through neat little portals.

Although I've always felt death, order and light as the 'order leaning realms' and void, life, fel as the 'chaos' leaning realms. I think Shadowlands biggest downfall is it just feels like playing through a realm ordered by titans, but bigger titans.

Maybe it would be better if it turned out Death has a more natural realm, but the Shadowlands itself is a big factory sorrounding oribos manafactured to keep it contained and within a desired margin.

Yeah i dont even know why this is a problem....i mean, we perfectly know that in warcraft lore, there is no other beings called the makers who ordered stuff...right?

[Nibelheimy]

As good a dungeon as tazavesh was. I'd hoped that the brokers were actually just mainly ethereals.

It would of been a really cool scenario to see K'aaresh being shattered by dimensius (or whatever its name is) and then Zereth Mortis kicking into action and creating Tazavesh as a realm of the shadowlands to house the countless dead ethereals who died when their planet was destroyed. Later other fiitting mortals like Goblins could of likely gone there.

Back to current lore however. If the titans are coming after whatever Iridikron and Xal have planned there's some options.

The titans, sargeras and illidan all return, either united or not. This seems sort of dull. What's happened between them whilst they've been locked away?

Saegeras has been converted back to his original nature somehow and sent on behalf of the titans to check out what's happened.

Illidan has been converted and influenced by order and sent on their behalf. We saw him resist xera, would be sort of heartbreaking to see him returned broken and twisted under the titans image.

The titans all come check us out, leaving sargeras and illidan behind. In a weakened state, maybe Iridikron has a shot.

The titans send a new titan, perhaps Amitus, on their behalf. Maybe she's what the void soul is used on. Turning the light titan into a void infused one. Would be a good mirror to Naruu turning to void with death.

Less likely, the titans or a representative do not come, but a prime Naruu or another cosmic force comes to apose the void.

There are a lot of possibilities here, but in my mind, the titans arriving and squishing Iridikron like a bug would be the least likely, and least compelling story to tell at this time.

[Ersula]

Bad take. Archimonde was summoned from the Nether which isn't bound to the laws of time regardless. Same should apply to the Shadowlands, etc.

"The Nether is not bound to the laws of time" Huh?
"Shadowlands is not bound to the laws of time either" HUH???
"Gul'dan summoning a portal to the Nether should not result any AU variant of a guy being summoned" I didn't say that. The Dev's said that wasn't an AU Archimonde, it was the original Archimonde from our present. Because, as they explained it 'there's only one Legion'.

Events transpire in a very specific order for all these creatures, one being the Archimonde we fight in AU Draenor is the same one we fought in Hyjal, except we know his perspective of events matches the players: That backs up the idea that like the Portal Khadgar made to take us to AU Draenor, the portal AU Gul'dan also connected to the player's timeline.

What I was saying is that up until Dragonflight there was only one legion, but it's likely that the Alternate Legion from the Azewrath timeline was created recently from the latest resurgence of the Infinite Dragonflight going back in time and creating a divergent timeline. (A thing Chromie just explained that they are doing.)

[Aeluron Lightsong]

As good a dungeon as tazavesh was. I'd hoped that the brokers were actually just mainly ethereals.

It would of been a really cool scenario to see K'aaresh being shattered by dimensius (or whatever its name is) and then Zereth Mortis kicking into action and creating Tazavesh as a realm of the shadowlands to house the countless dead ethereals who died when their planet was destroyed. Later other fiitting mortals like Goblins could of likely gone there.

Back to current lore however. If the titans are coming after whatever Iridikron and Xal have planned there's some options.

The titans, sargeras and illidan all return, either united or not. This seems sort of dull. What's happened between them whilst they've been locked away?

Saegeras has been converted back to his original nature somehow and sent on behalf of the titans to check out what's happened.

Illidan has been converted and influenced by order and sent on their behalf. We saw him resist xera, would be sort of heartbreaking to see him returned broken and twisted under the titans image.

The titans all come check us out, leaving sargeras and illidan behind. In a weakened state, maybe Iridikron has a shot.

The titans send a new titan, perhaps Amitus, on their behalf. Maybe she's what the void soul is used on. Turning the light titan into a void infused one. Would be a good mirror to Naruu turning to void with death.

Less likely, the titans or a representative do not come, but a prime Naruu or another cosmic force comes to apose the void.

There are a lot of possibilities here, but in my mind, the titans arriving and squishing Iridikron like a bug would be the least likely, and least compelling story to tell at this time.

I don't think the Titans are just gonna end up dead either, would be a waste and a waste of Sargeras to. It all depends what the Harbinger even wants to do in all of this.

[Ersula]

I don't think the Titans are just gonna end up dead either, would be a waste and a waste of Sargeras to. It all depends what the Harbinger even wants to do in all of this.

If Argus is any indication, killing Titans is very hard. But if Aggramar is any indication, destroying their physical form & mind controlling them is really easy.

Its a safe bet this expansion ends with the Harbinger taking control of the Titans.

[Ameonna]

"The Nether is not bound to the laws of time" Huh?
"Shadowlands is not bound to the laws of time either" HUH???
"Gul'dan summoning a portal to the Nether should not result any AU variant of a guy being summoned" I didn't say that. The Dev's said that wasn't an AU Archimonde, it was the original Archimonde from our present. Because, as they explained it 'there's only one Legion'.

Events transpire in a very specific order for all these creatures, one being the Archimonde we fight in AU Draenor is the same one we fought in Hyjal, except we know his perspective of events matches the players: That backs up the idea that like the Portal Khadgar made to take us to AU Draenor, the portal AU Gul'dan also connected to the player's timeline.

What I was saying is that up until Dragonflight there was only one legion, but it's likely that the Alternate Legion from the Azewrath timeline was created recently from the latest resurgence of the Infinite Dragonflight going back in time and creating a divergent timeline. (A thing Chromie just explained that they are doing.)

But lets be honest, the "there is only one Legion" thing was a bad idea, like, it was not logical at all, it was full of plots holes and it was stupid because if you considere a lot of the demons were once mortals beings (that are thus not unique) then how do you explain this?

How do you explain that in WoD in 6.2 (the patch when they even explained that there was only one legion) how you explain that we fight alternate Socrethar who became a demon? He?

And thats the problem here, if there is many differents timeline it means there is many different archimonde and kil'jaeden (who are not yet demons) it means there is even a Velen who did join the Legion, since thee is as many timeline as there is possibilities...

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If Argus is any indication, killing Titans is very hard. But if Aggramar is any indication, destroying their physical form & mind controlling them is really easy.

Its a safe bet this expansion ends with the Harbinger taking control of the Titans.

It was said in interview that we dont fight a full power Aggramar in Antorus, as well as Argus was not born yet either.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The C-Plot of DF is waking up Tyr, the creator of paladins

All of the paladin orders were founded like ten thousand years after his death and totally unrelated other then the name no? Or has there been some new quest I missed?

[Aeluron Lightsong]

All of the paladin orders were founded like ten thousand years after his death and totally unrelated other then the name no? Or has there been some new quest I missed?

The Silver Hand has some influence in Paladins and such, its notable but not a massive influence. I think WoW added the Tyr influence Pre WoW it wasn't.

I think anyways.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The Silver Hand has some influence in Paladins and such, its notable but not a massive influence. I think WoW added the Tyr influence Pre WoW it wasn't.

I think anyways.

I think that influence was just that there was a legend that they took the name from not really any thing direct.

[Lahis]

Could you give a TL; DR? I guess some proof that archimonde is reforming the legion?
I honestly don't want to give them any attention for obvious clickbait speculation videos.

Afrasiabi's One Legion In All Timelines brainfart has been quietly retconned out. The Archimonde we killed in WoD was from that timeline, our Archimonde is still out there regerating. He could come back with Legion remnant, co-operating or being manipulated by Denathrius (Archimonde wasn't the smartest one of the triumvirate).

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And Azewrath could just be a timeline the Legion claimed Azeroth against before Sargeras' imprisonment.

If the One Legion In All Timelines managed to claim Azewrath-Azeroth 10k years ago, why would they still bother with us? They won already.

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But Tyr is a titan keeper, sure paladins serve the Light but Tyr dont.

Tyr smashes thing with the Light like any Paladin inspired by him.

He might not serve the Light like mortal paladins but he clearly wields it.

[Xilurm]

Afrasiabi's One Legion In All Timelines brainfart has been quietly retconned out. The Archimonde we killed in WoD was from that timeline, our Archimonde is still out there regerating. He could come back with Legion remnant, co-operating or being manipulated by Denathrius (Archimonde wasn't the smartest one of the triumvirate).

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If the One Legion In All Timelines managed to claim Azewrath-Azeroth 10k years ago, why would they still bother with us? They won already.

Source? Cause that would be a big deal.

[Foolicious]

Afrasiabi's One Legion In All Timelines brainfart has been quietly retconned out. The Archimonde we killed in WoD was from that timeline, our Archimonde is still out there regerating. He could come back with Legion remnant, co-operating or being manipulated by Denathrius (Archimonde wasn't the smartest one of the triumvirate).

Not the worst idea to retcon some of wod's lore, but from what i understand it's mostly speculation about archimonde. That the timelines work like almost every other multiverse is basically confirmed with timerifts now.
If he assumes archimonde is dumb enough to be manipulated it's just another reason not to listen to him speculating because that is just wrong.

Source? Cause that would be a big deal.

Thats speculated in the video that was posted earlier. A few others have also summed it up shortly what he said if you don't want to watch it like me.

[Ersula]

How do you explain that in WoD in 6.2 (the patch when they even explained that there was only one legion) how you explain that we fight alternate Socrethar who became a demon? He?

And thats the problem here, if there is many differents timeline it means there is many different archimonde and kil'jaeden (who are not yet demons) it means there is even a Velen who did join the Legion, since thee is as many timeline as there is possibilities...

I also think it was a bad idea, but its the simple explanation that they merge with their other selves the instant they become a demon, and that's what the gift of Sargeras is. Which I have to assume is also what happens when AU Draka did when she died, her alternate selves fused into one being at the time of death. And the Jailer capturing pieces of souls harvested from Frostmorne. And Sargeras & The Jailer used their knowledge of the Shadowlands to harness this power.

Source? Cause that would be a big deal.

He's talking about a dumb Bellular video that claims this based on some new Datamined demons: But that's the wrong conclusion. Archimonde is not still alive because it was actually 2 Archimondes: Archimonde is still alive because the one we fought in HFC simply went to the Twisting Nether because Sargeras saved his soul. Sargeras wasn't imprisoned yet, so his death in WoD was only as permanent as it was the first time.

Why are you saying huh to those things I said? They are not bound to the laws of Time. This is confirmed on multiple occasions.

Its said they aren't bound to the laws of "life and death". But if they're on a single linear timeline, the same timeline the players are on, they're still experiencing "the laws of time" even though the Twisting Nether exists outside of the timeline the Bronze Dragons are defending. I guess that means they're not bound to "the bronze dragon's laws of time" but they're still experiencing time.

[Ameonna]

I think that influence was just that there was a legend that they took the name from not really any thing direct.

Yes; they are not aware (at least when they made the order of silver hand) that Tyr was related to the titans or that they (as humans) were even the descendants of the vrykuls who served tyr (and thus titan forged)

In any case, the Light have no part in all of these events since its all related to titans/Order.

I also think it was a bad idea, but its the simple explanation that they merge with their other selves the instant they become a demon, and that's what the gift of Sargeras is.

Well its not what dungeon journal says about Socrethar, and we already killed him in TBC and if he died in tbc (thus reforming in the nether) how can be a ghost in alternate draenor? (after we killed him in shatrath) and not be in the nether?

Its what i love with Socrethar from 6.2 is that in all the cases he is a division by zero ><like nothing makes snese with all the rules they establish in the same patch...

[huth]

Well its not what dungeon journal says about Socrethar, and we already killed him in TBC and if he died in tbc (thus reforming in the nether) how can be a ghost in alternate draenor? (after we killed him in shatrath) and not be in the nether?

Its what i love with Socrethar from 6.2 is that in all the cases he is a division by zero ><like nothing makes snese with all the rules they establish in the same patch...

I really don't get why everybody immediately assumed that it would work that way to begin with. It'd make much more sense for them to become seperate demons. It's not like that'd be a problem for the Legion, they actually needed the manpower. As is, it was never anywhere near big enough to actually pull off Sargeras ambitions.

But no, for some reason everybody convinced themself that all alternate versions must share the same soul, even though that only causes problems while serving no actual purpose.

[Foolicious]

I really don't get why everybody immediately assumed that it would work that way to begin with. It'd make much more sense for them to become seperate demons. It's not like that'd be a problem for the Legion, they actually needed the manpower. As is, it was never anywhere near big enough to actually pull off Sargeras ambitions.

But no, for some reason everybody convinced themself that all alternate versions must share the same soul, even though that only causes problems while serving no actual purpose.

It was literally blizzard that wanted us to believe that's the way it works. When wod came out we where like "ah yes an alternate universe. Makes sense. We know how it works".
Then they made a lot of stupid clarifications that never made sense to begin with. They just pulled some answers out of their poket because whoever was asked had no idea how they could justify the rule of cool and the transition into legion with skipping half the story.
There's a reason wod lore is hated.

[huth]

It was literally blizzard that wanted us to believe that's the way it works. When wod came out we where like "ah yes an alternate universe. Makes sense. We know how it works".
Then they made a lot of stupid clarifications that never made sense to begin with. They just pulled some answers out of their poket because whoever was asked had no idea how they could justify the rule of cool and the transition into legion with skipping half the story.
There's a reason wod lore is hated.

Except it wasn't Blizzard that first made that claim. In fact, i'm not entirely sure Blizzard even ever said that demons were unique at all. They said there's only one Legion (i.e. the organisation), not that there is only one of each demon. And besides, Socrethar's very existence refutes that idea.