Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Nymrohd]

champion tha woun' looks a bit off from the others.

Azeroth's Brand New Cherry Flavor. If you know you know (and I'm sorry)

[Enrif]

Feel like a lot of the erosion of Xal'atath as a compelling villain is a direct result of that pivot to 11.2 K'aresh in early tww development. They somehow had to get Dimensius involved and needed the dark heart in the hands of the shadowguard ethereals. Even Ion seemed to mock how they contrived to do it in his very first thing words at gamescom, during the tww recap, emphasizing how it was silly for her to entrust the dark heart to supremely untrustworthy gallywix. And even then it was silly how it got from gallywix; it wasn't even because he double crossed her, he just thought the ethereals were her footsoldiers and let them have the dark heart. They're going have to build her up again a bit throughout the campaign, since tww ended up being quite cliched. What's the general thinking here, Alleria going to get mostly sidelined this expansion, even though the epilogue post Dimensius has her vowing revenge on Xal'atath?

to be fair, Gallywix didn't give the dark heart to the ethereals, he was paralyzed and it was taken from him

[Nymrohd]

Feel like a lot of the erosion of Xal'atath as a compelling villain is a direct result of that pivot to 11.2 K'aresh in early tww development. They somehow had to get Dimensius involved and needed the dark heart in the hands of the shadowguard ethereals. Even Ion seemed to mock how they contrived to do it in his very first thing words at gamescom, during the tww recap, emphasizing how it was silly for her to entrust the dark heart to supremely untrustworthy gallywix. And even then it was silly how it got from gallywix; it wasn't even because he double crossed her, he just thought the ethereals were her footsoldiers and let them have the dark heart. They're going have to build her up again a bit throughout the campaign, since tww ended up being quite cliched. What's the general thinking here, Alleria going to get mostly sidelined this expansion, even though the epilogue post Dimensius has her vowing revenge on Xal'atath?

I still don't think she was ever a compelling villain. She is camp lite, is not nearly as well written as she was in Legion and mostly succeeds one foot fetish memes and Warcraft fans' sexual obsession with dead female elves. And camp and better lines would have made her enjoyable, not compelling. For her to be a compelling villain we need to explore her motivations and the game insists on letting those be opaque. We had a far better understanding of Fyrakk, Razsageth and Iridikron than we do of Xal'atoes.

[Pheraz]

Feel like a lot of the erosion of Xal'atath as a compelling villain is a direct result of that pivot to 11.2 K'aresh in early tww development. They somehow had to get Dimensius involved and needed the dark heart in the hands of the shadowguard ethereals. Even Ion seemed to mock how they contrived to do it in his very first thing words at gamescom, during the tww recap, emphasizing how it was silly for her to entrust the dark heart to supremely untrustworthy gallywix. And even then it was silly how it got from gallywix; it wasn't even because he double crossed her, he just thought the ethereals were her footsoldiers and let them have the dark heart. They're going have to build her up again a bit throughout the campaign, since tww ended up being quite cliched. What's the general thinking here, Alleria going to get mostly sidelined this expansion, even though the epilogue post Dimensius has her vowing revenge on Xal'atath?

I like how all turned out, but I must admit that I doubt that they knew that plot from the beginning, they new the ending with dimensius etc, ofc, because that model had to be made quite early. But questlines and placement of npcs talking can be done later I guess. Maybe I am wrong, because I don't know very much of game development (only app development :P), but I think they pulled a lot of stuff for this last patch, brokers and the xal story. But the outcome is supringly well done I guess, except how super empty and a bit unfinished karesh looks

[Jaggler]

champion tha woun' looks a bit off from the others.

The first expansion after TLT:

The War Within the Azerussy

[Ochinko]

I like how all turned out, but I must admit that I doubt that they knew that plot from the beginning, they new the ending with dimensius etc, ofc, because that model had to be made quite early. But questlines and placement of npcs talking can be done later I guess. Maybe I am wrong, because I don't know very much of game development (only app development :P), but I think they pulled a lot of stuff for this last patch, brokers and the xal story. But the outcome is supringly well done I guess, except how super empty and a bit unfinished karesh looks

I agree with this sentiment, it feels like some parts of the Karesh story were always intended to come, be it in TWW, Midnight or some earlier / later expansion.
After the Saga announcement they had to reshuffle all the things that were planned for TWW so we see the Haranir and "Rootlands" be part of Midnight now when all indicators pointed to them being TWW content.

Now that we get the Void-as-a-society-kinda story in Midnight, one could argue that Dimensius was originally planned for Midnight too.

This might also explain why everything points so obviously points towards playable Ethereals but due to the content shift and rush they might have gotten cut (for now, forever).

You can really feel the change in story and the rush they did but all in all they managed to do it well enough, it might not be the smoothest experience but its still done well.

Also I am still very much excited about Midnight when earlier (before Gamescom) I was 100% that we will only get Housing and a glued together xpac without anything else in it. As it looks now, Midnight actually has quite some content and a very large amount of system overhauls, which is very much nice for a 20 year old game.

Of course they could of done more / better and so on. But from the possible rush and struggle to get things in line and prepped / finished, its amazing and am very much excited to play it in just a couple of months.

[huth]

Not sure how that remotely connects to what I was trying to say.

BfA ventured into Kul Tiras and Zandalar. It didn't revamp any old areas other the warfront garbage. Which isn't remotely the same complexity of Quel'thalas.

I guess you didn't play beyond the first two patches? Because it definitely did. And complexity isn't relevant to the concept being known.

[Ibkee]

I still don't think she was ever a compelling villain. She is camp lite, is not nearly as well written as she was in Legion and mostly succeeds one foot fetish memes and Warcraft fans' sexual obsession with dead female elves. And camp and better lines would have made her enjoyable, not compelling. For her to be a compelling villain we need to explore her motivations and the game insists on letting those be opaque. We had a far better understanding of Fyrakk, Razsageth and Iridikron than we do of Xal'atoes.

Not sure where you're going with this, but part of what makes Xal compelling is precisely because her motivations aren't clearly defined, and, better yet, are not so easy to pick apart. The amount of discussion since she was reintroduced about her ambitions - and the different directions the plot could take with each - is far superior to the cartoonishly evil Razageth/Fyrakk or the Titan-sexual Iridikron.

She's a complex character yet somehow still grounded. She's had setbacks and failures, but found a way to come out on top. She's played everyone, including the player themselves, and yet somehow still manages to get away with it each time. There's depth there.

We're told she'll still be a primary antagonist by TLT and that's also just something WoW hasn't had in an age, a villain with sticking power. Is she the best in the Warcraft history? Not at all, not even close. But she might be the best WoW itself has introduced.

[Nymrohd]

Not sure where you're going with this, but part of what makes Xal compelling is precisely because her motivations aren't clearly defined, and, better yet, are not so easy to pick apart. The amount of discussion since she was reintroduced about her ambitions - and the different directions the plot could take with each - is far superior to the cartoonishly evil Razageth/Fyrakk or the Titan-sexual Iridikron.

She's a complex character yet somehow still grounded. She's had setbacks and failures, but found a way to come out on top. She's played everyone, including the player themselves, and yet somehow still manages to get away with it each time. There's depth there.

We're told she'll still be a primary antagonist by TLT and that's also just something WoW hasn't had in an age, a villain with sticking power. Is she the best in the Warcraft history? Not at all, not even close. But she might be the best WoW itself has introduced.

What makes her complex? She is just opaque. She isn't mysterious, she is just unknown. No one is making an effort to investigate her motivations. Locus Walker dies yet we never learn about how he interacted with her and what made him give her any trust. There is no complexity to see. And WoW introduced Garrosh.

[Houle]

Not sure where you're going with this, but part of what makes Xal compelling is precisely because her motivations aren't clearly defined, and, better yet, are not so easy to pick apart. The amount of discussion since she was reintroduced about her ambitions - and the different directions the plot could take with each - is far superior to the cartoonishly evil Razageth/Fyrakk or the Titan-sexual Iridikron.

That entirely stands and falls with how well it is actually resolved. Mystery-box-writing always does. The Janitor also had a lot of discussion about his ambitions and the different directions the plot could take with each, probably even more than Xal, and it turned into one of the biggest fails in the franchises history. Or are you trying to say the Janitor was a complex character too? Player speculation stemming from mystery isnt character depth. Its the lack thereof, bc the character isnt defined enough yet to rule certain things out.

She's a complex character yet somehow still grounded. She's had setbacks and failures, but found a way to come out on top. She's played everyone, including the player themselves, and yet somehow still manages to get away with it each time. There's depth there.

That is...not character depth. Her biggest chances for actual character depth were what happened between her and the OGs back when she was imprisoned and how she came to be Dimensius's servant in the first place. The former was ruined by the reveal that it was just her attempting to backstab them for power, aka her usual modus operandi, nothing more. The latter is still mostly open.

[Ibkee]

What makes her complex? She is just opaque. She isn't mysterious, she is just unknown. No one is making an effort to investigate her motivations. Locus Walker dies yet we never learn about how he interacted with her and what made him give her any trust. There is no complexity to see. And WoW introduced Garrosh.

She's complex for the reasons I provided, she's had setbacks and failures from the beginning - literally fails against the Old Gods - right through to present, but continues to manipulate events in her favour regardless. She tells many truths and many lies and is equally convincing with both. She's been around in WoW for 10 years and yet still her motivations are unclear. Why did she come to Azeroth? Why does she want the World Soul? Clearly there must be some element of depth or else the answer would be obvious.

As for Locus Walker, we actually do know why he trusts her. She warned him, personally, of the coming of Dimensius (see, the audio drama "The Doom of K'aresh") and she also used the power of the Reishii Ribbons to save the K'areshi. She told the truth and kept her word - obviously with the angle that she herself would be freed, but then that only led Locus Walker into believing she could be trusted again in a similar situation.

That is...not character depth. Her biggest chances for actual character depth were what happened between her and the OGs back when she was imprisoned and how she came to be Dimensius's servant in the first place. The former was ruined by the reveal that it was just her attempting to backstab them for power, aka her usual modus operandi, nothing more. The latter is still mostly open.

Feels like you're just trying to be contrarian here. Xal'atath, as a villain, is quite popular and it's not a new idea that she's written with more depth than say the previously cited Razageth.

You're right, there's many mysteries yet to be resolved and much will be determined by how they are resolved, but this isn't the Jailer 2.0.

[Houle]

Feels like you're just trying to be contrarian here. Xal'atath, as a villain, is quite popular and it's not a new idea that she's written with more depth than say the previously cited Razageth.

You're right, there's many mysteries yet to be resolved and much will be determined by how they are resolved, but this isn't the Jailer 2.0.

No, im just pointing out that you are equating mystery with depth. Which is simply inaccurate.
The Jailer had lots of mystery, but close to zero depth.
So did Snoke from Star Wars, as another example. The character was drenched in mystery, and there were hundreds of theories about him. But as soon as his origin was revealed, the character turned out to be flatter than cardboard.
The popularity of the characters is entirely irrelevant for that.

[Limayria]

I still don't think she was ever a compelling villain. She is camp lite, is not nearly as well written as she was in Legion and mostly succeeds one foot fetish memes and Warcraft fans' sexual obsession with dead female elves. And camp and better lines would have made her enjoyable, not compelling. For her to be a compelling villain we need to explore her motivations and the game insists on letting those be opaque. We had a far better understanding of Fyrakk, Razsageth and Iridikron than we do of Xal'atoes.

Her motivations are clear, she's chasing power because she sees it as the way to ensure her survival

Her end goal is simply to live

[Jaggler]

I'd rather have a revamped Myst-Isles and a redone Exodar.

[bruxx]

The Draenei zones are not made of paper like silver moon, enabling flying there right away would be an easy win

[Cheezits]

If 12.1 is Azuremyst and they want the raid or megadungeon close by, it could be Teldrassil with the Harandar being involved.

[Lady Atia]

If 12.1 is Azuremyst and they want the raid or megadungeon close by, it could be Teldrassil with the Harandar being involved.

Wait, using the Haranir to actually heal Teldrassil would be cool (although it would make Amirdrassil kinda redundant?).

[Paula Deen]

Feel like a lot of the erosion of Xal'atath as a compelling villain is a direct result of that pivot to 11.2 K'aresh in early tww development. They somehow had to get Dimensius involved and needed the dark heart in the hands of the shadowguard ethereals. Even Ion seemed to mock how they contrived to do it in his very first thing words at gamescom, during the tww recap, emphasizing how it was silly for her to entrust the dark heart to supremely untrustworthy gallywix. And even then it was silly how it got from gallywix; it wasn't even because he double crossed her, he just thought the ethereals were her footsoldiers and let them have the dark heart. They're going have to build her up again a bit throughout the campaign, since tww ended up being quite cliched. What's the general thinking here, Alleria going to get mostly sidelined this expansion, even though the epilogue post Dimensius has her vowing revenge on Xal'atath?

Gonna be real with you chief. There is no winning with you or most players.

You will always be thinking and critiquing a villains plans in WoW. Xal was intentionally brought down a few pegs from Dalaran so she would be more nuanced. It was the entire point. It makes it look like she isn't always winning. It gives us the illusion of losses like Dalaran and Locus Walker.

- - - Updated - - -

If 12.1 is Azuremyst and they want the raid or megadungeon close by, it could be Teldrassil with the Harandar being involved.

This is a cool idea man.

[Nerovar]

The people were astonished by his doctrine.

If you want to sit in Horde exclusive Silvermoon, sorry but… Zidormi is there waiting for you.

- - - Updated - - -

If Amani launch with the non-troll noses this will be a bigger disgrace than Shadowlands.

This is the same company that made updated Banshee models and forgot to give them elf ears.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Is there any solid evidence to support the claim that the Haranir are a product of Danuser's era as lead writer? Or are we just laying blame at the feet of a convenient scapegoat? How far along into TWW's development did Metzen return?

Mention returned full time at blizzard 10 months into TWW development, he was around before as an adviser though.