Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Joshuaj]

The biggest bug in the ass of the story is Anduin and he's the writer's pet and main creation in terms of his modern characterization of a woman in her 50s. Wait, 60s, Jesus.

There's plenty of good and challenging media coming out of people in their 20s and 30s that have political undertones or even overtones.

These people are just hacks, regardless of age, frankly. Tying it to one particular ideology is missing the forest for the trees.



No, an actual human enemy, in every day life.
I didn't ask you if he was complex. I told you to describe his character. Traits. Personality.

You're comparing a Void Lord to a human enemy. That's your first mistake.

Also, his traits? Simple. He's hungry, he delights in people's suffering (calling it exquisite, etc), he deems mortals as parasitic, he kept Xal'atath as his herald (seemingly for his own amusement), and he's got a pretty big ego (calling himself the universe, boasting about the fact he can destroy stars and planets like they're nothing, etc).

[Nymrohd]

I personally don't mind the first ones, as long as they remain far away and don't get "titanized" in the way that happened during legion (or rather Antorus)

Incidentally I think the Keepers would have been a great way to handle the Legion-Antorus story. Instead of using them for the Warrior class hall, make that a central max level campaign story and have KJ succesfully kidnap them as well as Wrathion with the specific intent to extract the Titan essences that escapes from them. Instead of Aman'thul being tortured, Odyn would. Then those essences coalesce into their Titan forms, greatly weakened, for the Argus fight. You keep the epic element for the Titans and you move the weakened part to their servants which we already had an established relation with. Instead of the Titans always being alive yet in hiding/kidnapped, we get to witness their resurrection (and then wonder what happens next after unleashing the Pantheon back to the universe, perhaps even concerned that they will come back to reoriginate us). Roughly the same story, minimal additional effort (they'd have to make an actual warrior order hall instead of it being Odyn's story, perhaps based around Saurfang and Danath creating the Army of Legionfall) and imo a far better result.

[COBRAstriker]

The biggest bug in the ass of the story is Anduin and he's the writer's pet and main creation in terms of his modern characterization of a woman in her 50s. Wait, 60s, Jesus.

There's plenty of good and challenging media coming out of people in their 20s and 30s that have political undertones or even overtones.

These people are just hacks, regardless of age, frankly. Tying it to one particular ideology is missing the forest for the trees.



No, an actual human enemy, in every day life.
I didn't ask you if he was complex. I told you to describe his character. Traits. Personality.

The point I am trying to make is that people generally have a tendency to blame whoever is the "face" of WoW's narrative, which is an easy mistake to do. Like I said, people in such positions are usually concerned with the macro themes of the game, and the general direction, the places we're going. The actual writing, dialogue, the tone of it all, is done by a dozen or however many people write for WoW

Don't think a "democratized" process would ever work in a creative endeavor, you end up with a diluted product that tries to cater or appeal to everyone and we all know how that ends, but Blizzard has yet to learn that

[micwini]

Then Week 4: Titans and the debate on whether or not they were always morally grey.

They are still. Hopefully they can keep it that way.
It is really easy for the writers as well. As long as the Titans have their own agenda, which sometimes aligns and sometimes doesn't with ours, we're good to go.

- - - Updated - - -

Stuff like this is always so odd to me.

It was Afrasiabi who headed BFA, it was Steve leading SL/DF and now Metzen and Maria Hamilton for the Saga.

None of these people have been “collage millennials”, half of them were/are “old guard”. Like have we ever even had a know millennial writer in any notable writing positions ever?

These are just the leads/faces of the team. Ever since BFA, the "lead" seems to just make sure it doesn't veer extremely off course like SL. It's fine if teammembers have input/can give good feedback, but the way it is now, it almost seems like the writing is decided by some kind of committee instead. A strong vision that is open to critique is a far better process than whatever they have now.
I rather have a story I don't like with a strong, clear vision than whatever we have now.

[Houle]

The higher cosmology stuff is definitely not that established lol

It wasnt back then, and that is pretty much the problem with it.

Yeah Chronicle was probably the biggest story retcon in the entire franchise. And wether or not someone personally liked it, many people accepted it, bc it was also the first time the lore had been gathered up in one place and presented and sold as the definitive lore. Ala "Sure, it mightve retconned a lot of stuff, but it cleaned it up and set the definitive stage for the lore from that point on."

Except then, a few years later, they started significantly retconning the already massive retcons in chronicle all over again. And again. And thats where many people got annoyed.

[Joshuaj]

Micwini, this ain't week 4 yet! WAIT TIL IT'S WEEK 4 LMAO

[Hearthfinder]

I could learn to appreciate First Ones lore if they changed the names and just about everything about them. Skip the Zereth nonsense. Skip the architects bit. Don't try to be Titan+, be your own thing.

Fundamental forces of the cosmos, moving with some small sense of purpose in an otherwise abstract existence. Perhaps manifesting as more concrete concepts every now and then. Titans. Naaru. Void Lords. Whatever. Maybe those Sepulcher robot factories was one such instance. Metaphysical forces taking solid form for a while, creation springing from it. Then again as Titans, as Wild Gods, the Dream, and whatever else the universe cooked up over the years.

[Vakir]

Don't think a "democratized" process would ever work in a creative endeavor, you end up with a diluted product that tries to cater or appeal to everyone and we all know how that ends, but Blizzard has yet to learn that

This I will agree on. That's just corporatization. My issue was just the idea that there's specific ideological reasons for the "SOFT, WEAK" Warcraft when frankly there were so many problems including new ones during times things were more aggro and edgy.

[Joshuaj]

It wasnt back then, and that is pretty much the problem with it.

Yeah Chronicle was probably the biggest story retcon in the entire franchise. And wether or not someone personally liked it, many people accepted it, bc it was also the first time the lore had been gathered up in one place and presented and sold as the definitive lore. Ala "Sure, it mightve retconned a lot of stuff, but it cleaned it up and set the definitive stage for the lore from that point on."

Except then, a few years later, they started significantly retconning the already massive retcons in chronicle all over again. And again. And thats where many people got annoyed.

What did Shadowlands retcon regarding Chronicle? That the Light and Void's clash didn't actually create everything? Cause tbh, there is a debate there, as the influences of Light and Shadow are still very much the forces that represent creation and destruction

- - - Updated - - -

I could learn to appreciate First Ones lore if they changed the names and just about everything about them. Skip the Zereth nonsense. Skip the architects bit. Don't try to be Titan+, be your own thing.

Fundamental forces of the cosmos, moving with some small sense of purpose in an otherwise abstract existence. Perhaps manifesting as more concrete concepts every now and then. Titans. Naaru. Void Lords. Whatever. Maybe those Sepulcher robot factories was one such instance. Metaphysical forces taking solid form for a while, creation springing from it. Then again as Titans, as Wild Gods, the Dream, and whatever else the universe cooked up over the years.

They are their own thing. They're Light, Shadow, Order, Disorder, Life, and Death. Ancient entities who made a design, balanced themselves, and set up the foundations for a cosmology that's governed by their influences.

- - - Updated - - -

The Zereths simply exist to give proper meaning and realization to their design.

[COBRAstriker]

This I will agree on. That's just corporatization. My issue was just the idea that there's specific ideological reasons for the "SOFT, WEAK" Warcraft when frankly there were so many problems including new ones during times things were more aggro and edgy.

The 9.1.5 censorship patch has changed my view of Blizzard in a fundamental way that I don't think I will ever be able to move past, because it has shown to me that they can censor, remove emotes from players, remove voice lines from players (things which they have ignored for years), engage in silly renames like renaming Damsels to Town Dwellers, or turning women into fruit bowls, at a moment's notice, if their employees are loud enough. Which means that the voice and wants of their employees take priority over the players'. And we can very much see that in action

Blizzard seems obsessed with making a WoW which their employees are happy to work on, but how about making a WoW which the players are happy to play and engage with

[Hearthfinder]

They are their own thing. They're Light, Shadow, Order, Disorder, Life, and Death. Ancient entities who made a design, balanced themselves, and set up the foundations for a cosmology that's governed by their influences.

- - - Updated - - -

The Zereths simply exist to give proper meaning and realization to their design.

Kind of yeah, but also kind of no. The Titans were basically filling that role already. Godlike beings who created everything we knew of, each representing a cosmic force like Life, Time, Light, etc.

A problem with the First Ones is that they basically tried to do the same thing, except, as you say, as a "balanced" design. Blizzard, I mean. The worried so much about having a perfect chart, and a perfect system, of forces opposing one another and interacting with each other in various ways, that they just got lost in their Excel sheet-storytelling and forgot about giving their world mystery and texture.

Titans were more interesting in part because they weren't a perfect design. Some of them seemed to have cosmic forces like Time and Life, others were basically lower in standing and ruled over mountains and stuff. There was intrigue and conflict, corruption and love. Great stuff. We couldn't really map them out, because in a way they would always remain these enigmatic figures of the ancient past.

The only bad thing I can think of with the Titans and the Titan Keepers is how their names break the 4th wall a bit. Would prefer some originality there. But in Metzen's defense, he did come up with them in his 20s.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I find it interesting how people seem to be pretty deadset against the First Ones as a concept, generally calling them out as being "hastily inserted" or "coming out of nowhere" while forgetting that the Titans themselves were pretty much invented whole-cloth during WC3,

While ya the titans also came out of no ever that happened when Warcraft was very much on its development stage where pretty much every thing was in flux, the first ones on the other hand come in after almost two decades of more or less solid world building.

And even beyond state of the universe when each was added, there just power scaling rubbish, we already had world shaping gods so now we need to up that and have universe shaping gods, and as some one who reads a whole lot of comics where such one ups happen all the time, they are almost never done well and almost always just end up hurting every thing touched by the new top dog.

[Vakir]

You're comparing a Void Lord to a human enemy. That's your first mistake.

No. I'm asking for characterization that helps us connect with a character. When we hate a villain, or admire or are entertained by them, we feel good when they lose and we get excited about fighting them. I'm referring to writing an actual character, not LITERALLY that Dimensius should be conflated with a human.

Also, his traits? Simple. He's hungry, he delights in people's suffering (calling it exquisite, etc), he deems mortals as parasitic, he kept Xal'atath as his herald (seemingly for his own amusement), and he's got a pretty big ego (calling himself the universe, boasting about the fact he can destroy stars and planets like they're nothing, etc).

The hunger is lore nature abstractness, so I don't buy that one. But absolutely. Sadistic and egotistical. Two character traits, largely informed by his boss ability quotes.

So now that we've established Dimensius as a character - an existential threat that is sadistic and arrogant - my follow-up is:

1. What differentiates Dimensius to you from the other villains we have in Warcraft who are also arrogant and sadistic? X will make all serve/dead and will delight in your suffering. We've all memed on the stock phrases enough.

2. Going off the response to the first question, what makes Dimensius cool?

And don't worry, I'm not making this an annoying bullying interrogation, I am absolutely getting there where I'm going to talk about my perceived Warcraft examples of great characters, great stories, etc. even if the other elements around them are weak. I'm asking you to set things up. Also, none of them are reliant on Rule of Cool.

[Joshuaj]

Kind of yeah, but also kind of no. The Titans were basically filling that role already. Godlike beings who created everything we knew of, each representing a cosmic force like Life, Time, Light, etc.

A problem with the First Ones is that they basically tried to do the same thing, except, as you say, as a "balanced" design. Blizzard, I mean. The worried so much about having a perfect chart, and a perfect system, of forces opposing one another and interacting with each other in various ways, that they just got lost in their Excel sheet-storytelling and forgot about giving their world mystery and texture.

Titans were more interesting in part because they weren't a perfect design. Some of them seemed to have cosmic forces like Time and Life, others were basically lower in standing and ruled over mountains and stuff. There was intrigue and conflict, corruption and love. Great stuff. We couldn't really map them out, because in a way they would always remain these enigmatic figures of the ancient past.

The only bad thing I can think of with the Titans and the Titan Keepers is how their names break the 4th wall a bit. Would prefer some originality there. But in Metzen's defense, he did come up with them in his 20s.

Well, not really, from the beginning, the Titans were always simply the guys who ordered the universe and "seeded" worlds with life. Yeah, they represented different aspects of the universe, but it's not much has changed since then regarding their magics lol.

- - - Updated - - -

No. I'm asking for characterization that helps us connect with a character. When we hate a villain, or admire or are entertained by them, we feel good when they lose and we get excited about fighting them. I'm referring to writing an actual character, not LITERALLY that Dimensius should be conflated with a human.



The hunger is lore nature abstractness, so I don't buy that one. But absolutely. Sadistic and egotistical. Two character traits, largely informed by his boss ability quotes.

So now that we've established Dimensius as a character - an existential threat that is sadistic and arrogant - my follow-up is:

1. What differentiates Dimensius to you from the other villains we have in Warcraft who are also arrogant and sadistic? X will make all serve/dead and will delight in your suffering. We've all memed on the stock phrases enough.

2. Going off the response to the first question, what makes Dimensius cool?

And don't worry, I'm not making this an annoying bullying interrogation, I am absolutely getting there where I'm going to talk about my perceived Warcraft examples of great characters, great stories, etc. even if the other elements around them are weak. I'm asking you to set things up. Also, none of them are reliant on Rule of Cool.

You're trying to pin me into a corner by having me explain what makes Dimensius cool without relying on the main things that actually make him cool and not a generic narrative bore (which, unfortunately, he is, and I've mentioned this on multiple occasions). This is your way to confuse me, and make it to where I have no proper argument against yours.

You see cool in terms of proper characterization and good writing involving said character. I see cool in different means other than that.

I understand the motive, I see the bait, and I'm not biting. Good attempt though.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

These are just the leads/faces of the team. Ever since BFA, the "lead" seems to just make sure it doesn't veer extremely off course like SL. It's fine if teammembers have input/can give good feedback, but the way it is now, it almost seems like the writing is decided by some kind of committee instead. A strong vision that is open to critique is a far better process than whatever they have now.
I rather have a story I don't like with a strong, clear vision than whatever we have now.

Theres been a ton of talk about how Alex pretty much lead BFA and early SL by the nose and did abunch of stuff other devs didn’t want, and then Steve was micro managing SL to the point where he was going back to remove lines form cata insulting his favourite character.

Any committee esc shift likely came with DF after they realized how Incompetent there leads were, and things have improved for it if stil not at a great level.

[Hitei]

Which means that the voice and wants of their employees take priority over ""the players'"". And we can very much see that in action

Blizzard seems obsessed with making a WoW which their employees are happy to work on, but how about making a WoW which ""the players"" are happy to play and engage with

"Blizzard should make a game they don't want to make to please my small vocal segment of players with unsavory opinions" is certainly a take.

[COBRAstriker]

"Blizzard should make a game they don't want to make to please my small vocal segment of players with unsavory opinions" is certainly a take.

So is being this quick to close ranks with a company which has pretty much killed an entire community - those that still cared about the setting and lore

[Aucald]

Thats largely bc back then, the lore was more undefined, given how new it was. WC1 was so different, bc the game was originally not even supposed to be its own IP with its own universe, it was supposed to be a Warhammer game, for which they didnt get the license. WC2 then followed that, but started introducing more original stuff. And WC3 was when the franchise truly found its own footing, theme, style and overall larger universe.

So id argue it makes a pretty considerable difference if you introduce new stuff of such importance during the franchises founding years when its still trying to find its own direction, or over 2 decades (!) after its creation, when the story, its characters, themes and larger narrative and backstory are all well established and set.

Still seems pretty arbitrary to me, to be honest. The Warhammer aspect of the earlier incarnation of Warcraft was never really a known quantity back in its day and was never truly part of the lore - it's something we learned later on as Warcraft grew in popularity. But WC1 and WC2 had pretty extensive backstories in their respective manuals, going into the story, background, and overarching lore of the game. Then WC3 launched and pretty much retconned the majority of the existing WC1/WC2 lore, but no one seemed to care or really bat an eye. You got a new pantheon of distant god-like figures, the demons became an extradimensional alien army, and also intimations that Azeroth was once occupied by protoplasmic deities of chaos and evil.

To me, this comes across as a strange appeal to tradition or an argument from age, where simply because a concept is old, it is accepted and expected without issues, whereas new information or creations have aspersions cast on them simply because of their newness. That kind of unfocused "they changed it, now it sucks" knee-jerk response to change in general. Stories have to move forward and have new things happen to continue, after all, and it would be weird and awkward to just close the book on an ongoing story and automatically dismiss new information or revelations out of some form of fear of change.

[Ersula]

The 9.1.5 censorship patch has changed my view of Blizzard in a fundamental way that I don't think I will ever be able to move past, because it has shown to me that they can censor, remove emotes from players, remove voice lines from players (things which they have ignored for years), engage in silly renames like renaming Damsels to Town Dwellers, or turning women into fruit bowls, at a moment's notice, if their employees are loud enough. Which means that the voice and wants of their employees take priority over the players'. And we can very much see that in action

Blizzard seems obsessed with making a WoW which their employees are happy to work on, but how about making a WoW which the players are happy to play and engage with

You're perpetuating this deranged narrative that the above decision was made by "diversity hire" boogiemen rather than a cynical decision made by the CEOs to show they were dealing with the horrific PR disaster they were in the middle of.

[COBRAstriker]

You're perpetuating this deranged narrative that the above decision was made by "diversity hire" boogiemen rather than a cynical decision made by the CEOs to show they were dealing with the horrific PR disaster they were in the middle of.

The "deranged narrative" is thinking that a CEO would give a rat's ass about some WoW quest from Cataclysm. Also I am pretty sure that some employees at the time came out and admitted to changing things which made them "feel uncomfortable". So stop using CEOs which are more than likely not even aware of WoW quests or dialogue as scapegoats