Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[milkmustache]

This is the most honest take that I find is being argued against with disingenuous intent. This kind of thing happens in Comic Books all the time- sometimes the new origins stick, other times the ol' iconic ones prevail over the new.

It's dishonest to pretend that this isn't potentially what's happened with WoW. At the end of the day, we're looking at the ol' iconics stepping back into play after an escapade of experimentation that didn't land with the majority.

Writers will simply write a way for it to work where we have to argue and imagine as the audience lol

I agree with your point that it's being oddly pushed back against.

It's what happened. We can all see it. Metzen doesn't come back to save the day if there's no day in need of saving. Clearly, something was wrong. It turns out that the world soul of Argus breaking the Arbiter was pretty meta.

[Ersula]

This is the most honest take that I find is being argued against with disingenuous intent. This kind of thing happens in Comic Books all the time- sometimes the new origins stick, other times the ol' iconic ones prevail over the new.

It's dishonest to pretend that this isn't potentially what's happened with WoW. At the end of the day, we're looking at the ol' iconics stepping back into play after an escapade of experimentation that didn't land with the majority.

Writers will simply write a way for it to work where we have to argue and imagine as the audience lol

It's missing a little nuance. That "new creative lead" trying to "shake things up" was Alex Afrasiabi who was working on WoW since it started. And then when Afrasiabi was fired, Danuser was saddled with the responsibility of landing a storyline he probably didn't want in the first place. And then he was in charge of Dragonflight, which was like, whatever, dragons.

I fucking beg for this not to be the case.

If only for the sake that 11.2.7 is guaranteed to be a nothing-burger at this point.

[Nymrohd]

It's missing a little nuance. That "new creative lead" trying to "shake things up" was Alex Afrasiabi who was working on WoW since it started. And then when Afrasiabi was fired, Danuser was saddled with the responsibility of landing a storyline he probably didn't want in the first place. And then he was in charge of Dragonflight, which was like, whatever, dragons.

Both failed. Metzen was brought back. Heck Alex was fired over the scandal, not over what he did with the game.

[Vakir]

Everything becomes a failure state because spoiler alert working with a antagonistic leadership and financiers to produce art is always going to be undercut and put to the wayside when they could just sell another box.

Again, literally mentioned the business side earlier. You're not saying anything new. I do think it influences things more than Cobra or Dickmann, but far less than you're saying. They're interested in longevity, player metrics, certain oppressive systems designed to keep you stuck in the game for extended time that they've scaled back since because they didn't work.

Individual plot beats and the like, not so much.

If we're attributing Shadowlands failure state to simply "Steve Danuser self-insert and loved Sylvanas" I think you guys are off your rockers. The financial side is causing the maximized havoc here and giving the Narrative Team a completely impossible environment to create anything of value. To solely blame the Narrative Team you're failing to see the forest for the trees.

...nobody said anything about Danuser with relation to Sylvanas, strawman. I mentioned Sylvanas, yes, but specifically that it was an end goal state for her character arc, regardless of what the arc was or who started it, whether it was Steve or Afrasiabi. We're going to the realm of the dead. That means it's going to be about Bolvar, the Forsaken, and Sylvanas, at least. And I mean...1 out of 3 ain't bad I guess?

My point was not that the Jailer was some monolithic thing designed to satisfy Steve's boner. That ship has sailed, although Nathanos is his LinkedIn banner, which is hilarious. That legitimately might be a joke.

My point was that the Jailer was meant to be the hammer for the nail that was the story they wanted to tell. You can't call him a failure because he did exactly what he was intended to do. The bigger picture of the writing is the failure, whether corporate interests ruined it or not.

The Jailer is nothing. Which is worse than sucking.

[Houle]

I've never actually agreed that the idea of a retcon is necessarily a bad thing, in and of itself. The way they're often done is hamfisted and inelegant, yes, but there have been many instances in which they actually improved a narrative universe when viewed with the luxury of hindsight. And that's contingent on agreeing that the recontexualization and enhancing of existing lore actually constitutes a retcon, which I don't believe is necessarily true, or required.

As with many things, the implementation of them is what really matters. And, Blizzard does not have a good track record of that, going by the general opinion every time they become the topic of dicussion. Recontexualization and "enhancing" (wether or not it does so is almost always subjective and dependant on the specific individual cases) of existing lore is by definition a retcon. When it changes the meaning or context of a previous story or scene, it is a retcon. It doesnt have to explicitly overwrite the entire events of the story or scene to be one.

That is based on the assumption that Dimensius' goals are always aligned with those of the other Void Lords, or that he doesn't also have an ulterior agenda (e.g., consuming this Dark Titan before or after it is born to assume its powers). Both can be true without necessarily refuting the other.

Sure it is. But given that Dimensius seems to be the most powerful (or at least one of them) among them, and is also the first and only one yet the player character have even met, its pretty inconsistent to entirely remove him from the one main agenda that defined the VLs entire collective role throughout the story up until that point, without any explanation at all.

No, in Chronicle Vol. 1 it is related that a portion of their power remained with the Keepers on Azeroth, and the rest is merely assumed to be lost. We find out later that this isn't the case. We assumed this additional power, which is described simply as having "dimmed," was merely lost - but Legion showed the cause of the dimming was something else entirely.

Chronicle Page 54:

The disembodied titan spirits hurtled through the Great Dark toward the world of Azeroth and its keepers. There, the Pantheon hoped they could locate physical forms to inhabit. If they could not find such vessels, the titans feared their weakened spirits would soon fade into oblivion. Upon reaching Azeroth, the depleted spirits slammed into the keepers, who had been crafted by the Pantheon's own hands.
The keepers were immediatly overwhelmed as the titans' powers flared in their minds. They witnessed fargmented memories of distant worlds, of lifetimes never lived and wonders never seen. But just as quickly as the influx of power had come, it dimmed.
The keepers, still retaining their original personalities, puzzled over the strange phenomenon. They knew they had been gifted with a portion of the Pantheon's power, but they were unaware that the last remnants of their beloved makers had been infused in their very bodies.

Chronicle Page 59:

When the Pantheon's power and memories had been infused in the keepers, Ra had reeled in confusion much like his siblings. Over time, however, he had concluded that this event was more than just an anomaly. The influx of power was the last remnant of the Pantheon's spirits.

There is really not much to argue about here.

The canonicity of the Chronicle wasn't retconned - its existence as an objective piece of reference material, as in the objective truth of the Warcraft story, was. Most forms of canon information in WoW exist in the form of in-universe PoV lore, after all.

That is very much what i meant. And the fact that most forms of canon information in WoW exists in some form of in-universe PoV lore is what made Chronicle originally so special (for better or worse), and why the retcon of that is so significant.

[Nymrohd]

What happened to the Chronicle imo is worse than a retcon. It's false advertisement.

[Darkarath]

Just watched the last Poddy C.

They say at the end that there is a "big episode coming" and that it is "imminent".

So I guess that class blogs coming this week? Alpha? A new video with Ion showing more about the new interface changes?

[Dvalin]

Just watched the last Poddy C.

They say at the end that there is a "big episode coming" and that it is "imminent".

So I guess that class blogs coming this week? Alpha? A new video with Ion showing more about the new interface changes?

What did you watch?

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

Maybe they got a Warcraft Team member on the PoddyC, that'd be kind of cool if not maybe its the class blog post time?

Again, literally mentioned the business side earlier. You're not saying anything new. I do think it influences things more than Cobra or Dickmann, but far less than you're saying. They're interested in longevity, player metrics, certain oppressive systems designed to keep you stuck in the game for extended time that they've scaled back since because they didn't work.

Individual plot beats and the like, not so much.

I just think its obvious that the Narrative Teams failures are kind of multiplied by the financial side refusing to support the Narrative Team with any carrots that can help them create better narrative outcomes.

Again, I feel like the whole Zovaal topic has become nonsensical. He didn't have characterization, he didn't have story sequences, scenes, background information, seeding. Hell, Zovaal shares the same exact problems 3 years later in Xal'atath. We learned nothing and will continue to learn nothing because instead its all about superficial blame game of individuals who are literal ghosts from the past at this point and how Blizzard can cleanse themselves ofthe spilled blood from the absolute travesty that Shadowlands was by continuing to bait the Shadowlands de-canonizers in a frenzy every now and then.

Hell, now the entire Narrative Team is democratized and there's no interviews with any member of the Narrative Team or the Warcraft Universe Director its' all just Maria Hamilton being the only one that gives information about the narrative at this point. Its a completely different paradigm, anyways.

[Marlamin]

What did you watch?

Poddy C is the podcast that Dratnos and Max do. Probably referring to this part.

[Nymrohd]

Just watched the last Poddy C.

They say at the end that there is a "big episode coming" and that it is "imminent".

So I guess that class blogs coming this week? Alpha? A new video with Ion showing more about the new interface changes?

I'd assume it's about some kind of e-sport

[Nymrohd]

I don't know I am just extremist in my view of the problems, I suppose. I just think its obvious that the Narrative Teams failures are kind of multiplied by the financial side refusing to support the Narrative Team with any carrots that can help them create better narrative outcomes.

I would say, after the budget that must have been burned to make all the cinematics for BfA, if I was in Blizzard accounting I'd definitely be concerned about RoI.

[Darkarath]

I'd assume it's about some kind of e-sport

Nah I'm pretty sure that's WoW related.

Poddy C is the podcast that Dratnos and Max do. Probably referring to this part.

Thanks for that. Amazing job as always.

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

I would say, after the budget that must have been burned to make all the cinematics for BfA, if I was in Blizzard accounting I'd definitely be concerned about RoI.

I mean the working theory and murmurs on why that was allowed was because it was like a celebration and kind of a "Going Away" Party type ordeal for a part of the Cinematics Team that were retiring or leaving because they saw where the wind was blowing.

Then again, it doesn't explain all the IGCs in Dragonflight and the Patch Trailers and then that just going away in The War Within, but I genuinely have no idea whats' going on with the Narrative Team + Cinematics Team at this point and whether the Leadership and above see any value or they are just keeping a skeleton crew behind in both.

It may definitely be harder for beancounters to see the value in keeping Cinematics Team fully staffed and the cost of it is immense, so it isn't surprising when they do move in the other direction.

But, I want to remain optimistic and hope that the Midnight Marketing is going to be excellent and maybe we get some good IGCs during Base Midnight.

[Nymrohd]

I mean the working theory and murmurs on why that was allowed was because it was like a celebration and kind of a "Going Away" Party type ordeal for a part of the Cinematics Team that were retiring or leaving because they saw where the wind was blowing.

Buy them a cake.

[Aucald]

As with many things, the implementation of them is what really matters. And, Blizzard does not have a good track record of that, going by the general opinion every time they become the topic of dicussion. Recontexualization and "enhancing" (wether or not it does so is almost always subjective and dependant on the specific individual cases) of existing lore is by definition a retcon. When it changes the meaning or context of a previous story or scene, it is a retcon. It doesnt have to explicitly overwrite the entire events of the story or scene to be one.

No, that's not how retcons actually work. The word retcon means "retroactive continuity," as in a continuity that supplants or replaces the previously existing one. There's a difference between a recontextualization, as in learning that a villain has a motivation that perhaps isn't as villainous as previously thought, versus a continuity where they were never a villain, but rather always a hero. Learning new details about something neither requires nor implies continuity to be replaced or superseded; otherwise, you're basically saying that every new chapter of a book "retcons" the old chapters by changing the story. The twist ending of "The Sixth Sense," where you discover the protagonist was dead the entire time, doesn't retcon the story of the movie.

Sure it is. But given that Dimensius seems to be the most powerful (or at least one of them) among them, and is also the first and only one yet the player character have even met, its pretty inconsistent to entirely remove him from the one main agenda that defined the VLs entire collective role throughout the story up until that point, without any explanation at all.

He's not been removed from the agenda, either. Right now, he's simply contained within the confines of the Dark Heart - he's not dead, and based on what we've seen, he can break free at some future point. Also, based on his dialogue during the encounter within Manaforge Omega, Dimensius' goals extend a bit beyond just eating, with such lofty pronouncements as "The heavens bow to me!" and "I am the universe. It obeys me." This relates that Dimensius' goals (or delusions) are somewhat more lofty than just consuming everything.

There is really not much to argue about here.

Key points, page 54: "But just as quickly as the influx of power had come, it dimmed. [...] They knew they had been gifted with a portion of the Pantheon's power, but they were unaware that the last remnants of their beloved makers had been infused in their very bodies." This doesn't imply that nothing remains of the portion of the Titans that seemingly left them, because they couldn't contain it. Similarly, pg. 59 is what Highkeeper Ra surmises happened, but it's been shown more than once that Ra is not incapable of errors, both subtle and gross as it turns out. The Keepers were indeed infused with the last remnants of the Pantheon's spirits, but not their totality.

That is very much what i meant. And the fact that most forms of canon information in WoW exists in some form of in-universe PoV lore is what made Chronicle originally so special (for better or worse), and why the retcon of that is so significant.

I won't argue that Chronicle was fundamentally downgraded in terms of tier of reference material, but this is neither here nor there insofar as canonicity is concerned. That ship long ago sailed.

[Nymrohd]

But, I want to remain optimistic and hope that the Midnight Marketing is going to be excellent and maybe we get some good IGCs during Base Midnight.

The quality of the reveal cinematic suggests otherwise.

[milkmustache]

Then again, it doesn't explain all the IGCs in Dragonflight and the Patch Trailers and then that just going away in The War Within, but I genuinely have no idea whats' going on with the Narrative Team + Cinematics Team at this point and whether the Leadership and above see any value or they are just keeping a skeleton crew behind in both.

I might be confused on what you're referring too-- the IGCs were plentiful in TWW.

[Dvalin]

I might be confused on what you're referring too-- the IGCs were plentiful in TWW.

Dragonflight Cinematics:
- Forbidden Reach outro.
- Kalecgos visits Karazhan.
- Raszageth’s showdown with Alexstrasza.
- Incarnates Unleashed.
- Tyrande and Malfurion and the new World-Tree.
- The Incarnates and Neltharion’s Dark Secret.
- The Incarnates open the Zaralek Caverns.
- Fyrakk attacks Loamm.
- Nozdormu’s visions.
- Murozond’s fall - Iridikron wins.
- Fyrakk’s prisoner.
- Fyrakk’s new weapon.
- Azeroth’s Blessing.
- Iridikron’s warning.
The War Within Cinematics:
- Alleria and Locuswalker discuss the Radiant Song.
- Dalaran arrives in Khaz Algar.
- Khadgar faces Xal’atath.
- Magni stops the corruption.
- Ansurek speaks to her people.
- Alleria faces Xal’atath.
- Undermine intro.
- Undermine outro.
- Dimensius stirs.
- Xal’atath’s betrayal.


In length almost comparable to Dragonflight.

[milkmustache]

In length almost comparable to Dragonflight.

I'm also willing to add in the late game narrative pivot in TWW and the issues that may have brought up, like Orwenya in the cinematic vs representation in the game. I don't expect Midnight to have a drop off in cinematics at all.