Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Makorus]

The problem is that Ret/BM just aren't really fun or rewarding. Random procs/buff tracking is where skill expression lies, otherwise you might as well just use the one button rotation. Asking for a "First you press your generator, then you press your spender " is just not really fun gameplay.

The playerbase has this obsession with rotations to the point where if you don't do the rotation exactly like the APL, you are playing the class wrong, which leads to people overcomplicating specs for no reason whatsoever. Frost DK technically has 6 different macros for Pillar of Frost, depending on what the ability after Pillar of Frost would be, however, ignoring it is a 0.3% DPS loss, which is such a whatever thing.

There are very few specs that are "complicated" or "unintuitive" at this point. The problem is people mindlessly copying talent builds without knowing what all their talents actually do.

It's like people complaining about command inputs in Fighting Games, they are a core concept of the game, and skill expression, the lowest barrier of entry: can you press your buttons right?

They added Modern controls, which does it for you, but it comes with a damage deficit. Exactly what WoW has. If you just wanna mindlessly press a button, there's the one button rotation.

[Pyrophax]

The problem is that Ret/BM just aren't really fun or rewarding. Random procs/buff tracking is where skill expression lies, otherwise you might as well just use the one button rotation. Asking for a "First you press your generator, then you press your spender " is just not really fun gameplay.

The playerbase has this obsession with rotations to the point where if you don't do the rotation exactly like the APL, you are playing the class wrong, which leads to people overcomplicating specs for no reason whatsoever. Frost DK technically has 6 different macros for Pillar of Frost, depending on what the ability after Pillar of Frost would be, however, ignoring it is a 0.3% DPS loss, which is such a whatever thing.

There are very few specs that are "complicated" or "unintuitive" at this point. The problem is people mindlessly copying talent builds without knowing what all their talents actually do.

It's like people complaining about command inputs in Fighting Games, they are a core concept of the game, and skill expression, the lowest barrier of entry: can you press your buttons right?

They added Modern controls, which does it for you, but it comes with a damage deficit. Exactly what WoW has. If you just wanna mindlessly press a button, there's the one button rotation.

But tracking 4s buff window for damage is unfun. Or 3dots+2debuffs+4buffs for one skill use only. That comes with 1min CD on top of that.
Who cares about player skill, when class is not fun and engaging?

[Makorus]

But tracking 4s buff window for damage is unfun. Or 3dots+2debuffs+4buffs for one skill use only. That comes with 1min CD on top of that.
Who cares about player skill, when class is not fun and engaging?

What class has you track 4s buff windows lmao? You are just making things up.
Obviously there are classes that have shit game design, but they are actively changing them. That's why Shaman was reworked (even though it didn't hit), because they were a "Stars Align" spec.

[Pyrophax]

What class has you track 4s buff windows lmao? You are just making things up.
Obviously there are classes that have shit game design, but they are actively changing them. That's why Shaman was reworked (even though it didn't hit), because they were a "Stars Align" spec.

Paladin set-bonus from Undermine, for example.
Warrior enrage buff.
DH Essence Break.
DH Inertia.
DH Momentum.

Should I seek for more with other classes?

Classes should be played like this

and this


But not like this

[Skildar]

Shadowlands brought very interesting lore (the zones themselves, the brokers and First Ones) in my opinion. It truly expanded WoW 's narrative possiblities, the unfortunate is that it wasn't utilized in a satisfying manner.

Maldraxxus - Could have been great if they stuck to immortal souls fighting until they reach the perfect body, magic and weapons matching their soul. They should have made the place in a way that states it's not entirely inside of the Shadowlands though as they've introduced the rule that nay entity cannot doe outside of his realm. The thing that lacked greatly is why would the Shadowlands need any army of its own, what would other forces have to gain invading this realm? What would the Shadowlands gain into invading other planes? More anima? More souls? Is Maldraxxus supposed to be a snowball of death accelerating death in Reality realm?
Revendreth - Could have been great if they exploited a bit more why the Light would wage war against this realm outside of saying "you spied on me so I'm shining on you" ? oO'
Bastion - I would have expected way more interactions with other death planes, such as Odyn's hall of Valor and his Valkyr, Helya's hellheim and her kvaldir, Shamanistic/Priests/Paladin spirits lingering on Azeroth/Draenor.
Ardenweald - Very interesting cycle of rebirth explaining in a satisfying manner the quick resurrection stories of the Wild Gods we had to suffer during Cataclysm. The conflict with the Drust and their death plane could have been more fleshed out to give us something of value as to why would such a foe be interesting in Sylvarden's anima and why Maldraxxus isn't interesting in helping them, etc.
The Maw - I still don't get what this is used for, the pseudo-torture valley is very badly represented and is already dealt with in Revendreth. Why would Garrosh end up there and not Kael'thas? (btw why would Kael'thas not be considered a demon at some point... I mean if Illidan is).

I find it mostly ok for some characters to move between this plane and the one of reality, it's just an antichamber of death, real death (oblivion) still exists. But as with all things, moving between planes should have a cost, the Valkyr was done with this in mind, the useless Ysera-Malfurion swap aw well. Instead we get guest stars here and there without any explanation nor any excitation.

Moving forward with the Saga, it's a bit expected to see more faces from Shadowlands, between this last patch and the teasing of Sylvanas implication. It's hard to get things right after the job is done 3-4 years ago but Chronicles managed to add a lot of interesting missing bits to MoP, Burning Crusade, etc. They can still salvage things that are not focused around the Jailer to give them their proper fit. I despised the book about Sylvanas because it clearly is something that was supposed to be told in game, but here they can do so through books and short stories, then give a nod to them in game in the future.

[Xilurm]

Being mysterious and leaving stuff in certain areas? Sure. That's kinda where it ends tho.

And being the top dog in the universe.

Can we please not pretend that this isn't the case? The Titans were effectively the "Gods" of the Warcraft universe. Regardless if they had the ultimate power to weave the laws of physics as they see fit, or if they just act as architects and shape an already made universe in their image.

Then come the First Ones. And we are told that even though the Titans have some control over the cosmic force, the First Ones are the actual embodiment of said cosmic forces, allegedly.

It just gets boring. For multiple reasons, one of them is that it has greatly diminished the role of the Titans themselves, especially with how close we've gotten to them and how close we're going to get in the future. (TLT)

[Throren]

Sylvarden

Huh, didn't know that's what Ardenweald was called in French, I was confused for a second there lmao

[allegrian]

The problem is that Ret/BM just aren't really fun or rewarding. Random procs/buff tracking is where skill expression lies, otherwise you might as well just use the one button rotation. Asking for a "First you press your generator, then you press your spender " is just not really fun gameplay.

The playerbase has this obsession with rotations to the point where if you don't do the rotation exactly like the APL, you are playing the class wrong, which leads to people overcomplicating specs for no reason whatsoever. Frost DK technically has 6 different macros for Pillar of Frost, depending on what the ability after Pillar of Frost would be, however, ignoring it is a 0.3% DPS loss, which is such a whatever thing.

There are very few specs that are "complicated" or "unintuitive" at this point. The problem is people mindlessly copying talent builds without knowing what all their talents actually do.

It's like people complaining about command inputs in Fighting Games, they are a core concept of the game, and skill expression, the lowest barrier of entry: can you press your buttons right?

They added Modern controls, which does it for you, but it comes with a damage deficit. Exactly what WoW has. If you just wanna mindlessly press a button, there's the one button rotation.

Ret is super rewarding when playing hard content and using all your utilities and heals both on yourself and on the other party members.

[Makorus]

Paladin set-bonus from Undermine, for example.
Warrior enrage buff.
DH Essence Break.
DH Inertia.
DH Momentum.

Should I seek for more with other classes?

Classes should be played like this
and this


But not like this

You don't have to track any of these buffs?
The Paladin Set Bonus lights your buttons up.
Warrior Enrage, Essence Break (???), Inertia and Momentum are all direct results of your actions, you don't need to track them.

[Nymrohd]

The game has a variety of specs from low skill floor/low skill ceiling to high skill floor/high skill ceiling so that everyone can enjoy themselves. I will say, I think ideally the skill floor should never be too high with specs where picking up a core mechanic can be complex and messing up tanks your performance completely nor should the skill ceiling be too low; there should always be some room for skill expression even if it is minimal. I also think a lot of dps players in particular do not count proper use of utility when they consider the skill ceiling. If you are just doing your rotation and maybe dropping one pre planned ability once in a while while the other spec is doing their much less complex rotation but also using several buffs, dispels, CCs and offhealing, that has to be taken into account.

[Hitei]

Fracturing class design is really a failure of circumstance. It's one of those things that is increasingly at the mercy of diametrically opposed player ideologies. There are people clamoring for the ~2-5 button simplistic rotations of the first few expansions, and there are also people who get angry when Blizzard does stuff like the Animosity change for Devokers because "that's the only skill expression there is!"

It's sort of the Breath of Sindragosa issue. There are sizable segments of the playerbase that love rotational complexity and hate rotational complexity. That love skill expression of punishing rotations or snapshotting, and that are completely ostracized by the idea of it. So who do you design for? Realistically, as is, you can simplify most specs to very basic forms via talent choices, though that will not be optimal, but allowing for simplification in optional format like talent choices is always going to run into friction with the perceived viability of a choice, which is a whole other massive issue in the game.

The best option might be shunting a more even spread of spec difficulty, i.e. choose 10 or so specs and bring them down to the much simpler rotational level of the lowest, but that also risks pissing off just as many people as it pleases.

[Nymrohd]

Fracturing class design is really a failure of circumstance. It's one of those things that is increasingly at the mercy of diametrically opposed player ideologies. There are people clamoring for the ~2-5 button simplistic rotations of the first few expansions, and there are also people who get angry when Blizzard does stuff like the Animosity change for Devokers because "that's the only skill expression there is!"

It's sort of the Breath of Sindragosa issue. There are sizable segments of the playerbase that love rotational complexity and hate rotational complexity. That love skill expression of punishing rotations or snapshotting, and that are completely ostracized by the idea of it. So who do you design for? Realistically, as is, you can simplify most specs to very basic forms via talent choices, though that will not be optimal, but allowing for simplification in optional format like talent choices is always going to run into friction with the perceived viability of a choice, which is a whole other massive issue in the game.

The best option might be shunting a more even spread of spec difficulty, i.e. choose 10 or so specs and bring them down to the much simpler rotational level of the lowest, but that also risks pissing off just as many people as it pleases.

I think we have enough specs for every option. Imo what would be ideal especially with Hero Talents de facto creating multiple builds per spec is to have options to build a spec more simple and more complex. I think the issue is that people who like skill expression also demand that expression is rewarded significantly; I think it should be rewarded but not much beyond the margin of error.

Also, if Blizzard insists on forced movement mechanics in every raid, they need to give everyone a way to handle them and fuck people who whine about homogenization. They should be forced to play priests.

[Santandame]

That was just seeding the role though not actually the Jailer as a character.

That's like saying N'zoth and Zovaal vaguely going on about "what is to come" was seeding for whatever mega-villain they concoct in the future and decide to go back and attribute them to those warnings.

It’s still a seeding of the character unless you consider seeding to only be on the nose - like having it be Sylvanas telling Genn during their 1v1 that he should be very worried because she’s working with the WoW version of Satan and his name is Zovaal.

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I mean it the same "oooh, mystery!!!!" shit they keep doing till now. They should have given more information. We should have gotten more out of Eyir and Odyn, directly or indirectly and then we should have had far more information out of the Vol'jin BfA questline. Heck an investigation questline on both sides with Genn trying to find out what Sylvanas had agreed with Helya with Baine on the other side trying to contact Vol'jin could have given us a much cleaner picture and it could have all tied together with a Bolvar questline later on.

They definitely should have given more. Everything regarding the Jailer was poor. I’m not arguing that what we were given was adequate just that he was seeded, albeit poorly.

During the Eyir cinematic, Eyir should have brought up Sylvanas master. Odyn should have mentioned during the end of the Trial of Valor raid that whilst Helya has been defeated, her words frighten him and he wonders if the force he once bargained with in the Shadowlands could be involved. You could have had Vol’jin during his dying moments cast doubt whether the Loa were actually speaking to him, perhaps even state that he doesn’t trust the voices he’s hearing and that he denies Sylvanas as Warchief (but she takes it anyway). The Knights of the Ebon Blade should have stated that the Bolvar seems unfamiliar to them and that all is not as it seems. Perhaps even a section of the Death Knight campaign in which we meet with Odyn and he states that the power we serve (the DK player) is familiar to him and to exercise caution.

Also, there was that question in Cata- Era Azshara where we briefly dip into the Shadowlands to find a blue dragon who had fallen in love with a spirit healer. I think it would have been a wise idea on Blizzard’s part to have a quick mention from the spirit healer that it would be wise for us to not linger as there is a great evil located there. I know that’s a long ways off foreshadowing, but it would have been useful purely as to making the mythos of the world of WoW seeming larger as well as a future story hook.

There’s a hell of a lot more seeding that they could have, and should have done. But ultimately it comes down to a combination of Blizzard not being very good writers and the aforementioned writers always wanting Sylvanas to be seen as one step ahead of everyone else.

But yes, the seeding of the Jailer could have been much, much better. But there was seeding there regardless, just that it wasn’t very good.

Ultimately, personally, I would have had the Jailer and Mueh’zala be the same entity. Mueh’zala could have been how the Trolls referred to him. I think that throughout the history of WoW as well we should have had more reference to a malevolent Death themed entity to contrast against Elune, the Light etc. What little we knew of Mueh’zala from Classic could have been expanded with the Tauren, Dwarves, Humans etc all having different names for him.

[Hitei]

I think we have enough specs for every option. Imo what would be ideal especially with Hero Talents de facto creating multiple builds per spec is to have options to build a spec more simple and more complex. I think the issue is that people who like skill expression also demand that expression is rewarded significantly; I think it should be rewarded but not much beyond the margin of error.

Also, if Blizzard insists on forced movement mechanics in every raid, they need to give everyone a way to handle them and fuck people who whine about homogenization. They should be forced to play priests.

I guess it largely comes down to what we consider simple. I think there is a spread right now, but that spread has been skewed by a wide degree in favor of complexity. The "simple" specs like BM or Destro are what in previous expansions would have passed for a normal or even somewhat complicated spec, and the actual simple specs of previous eras, like old-old Arcane or early expansions Combat or Enhance don't really exist in modern form.

[Nymrohd]

I guess it largely comes down to what we consider simple. I think there is a spread right now, but that spread has been skewed by a wide degree in favor of complexity. The "simple" specs like BM or Destro are what in previous expansions would have passed for a normal or even somewhat complicated spec, and the actual simple specs of previous eras, like old-old Arcane or early expansions Combat or Enhance don't really exist in modern form.

Yeah I guess you are right. We really don't have very simple specs anymore, however much people like to call BM brainless it is noticeably more complex now than it was at any past point.

[Sondrelk]

I guess it largely comes down to what we consider simple. I think there is a spread right now, but that spread has been skewed by a wide degree in favor of complexity. The "simple" specs like BM or Destro are what in previous expansions would have passed for a normal or even somewhat complicated spec, and the actual simple specs of previous eras, like old-old Arcane or early expansions Combat or Enhance don't really exist in modern form.

There is also the question of what constitues simple gameplay in terms of how the spec plays in a raid or dungeon setting. Is a spec with more complexity one that requires less movement? More movement? Does it mean removing utility or survivability?

Generally I think Blizzard doesnt want to give several playstyles to that extent. Mostly because it requires balancing several sub-specs when meta players will almost always jump ship anyways.

[extasy]

Paladin set-bonus from Undermine, for example.
Warrior enrage buff.
DH Essence Break.
DH Inertia.
DH Momentum.

Should I seek for more with other classes?

Classes should be played like this

and this


But not like this

Absolute literal insane skill issue LMAO. Imagine having hard time tracking Enrage buff.

It's a good thing blizz isnt listening to takes like this cus wow would actually be dead by now.

[Lahis]

What class has you track 4s buff windows lmao? You are just making things up.
Obviously there are classes that have shit game design, but they are actively changing them. That's why Shaman was reworked (even though it didn't hit), because they were a "Stars Align" spec.

Keeper of the Grove Balance Druid. If you line up every CD correctly, you get ~4sec window to dump the Empowered Starsurges from your set bonus before you drop buffs and do significantly less damage.

[Makorus]

I do think a lot of this has to do with the playerbase being obsessed with the absolute best builds, no matter the cost.

I can make a ST Frost DK build without Breath that brings my Sim DPS down from 5.2 Mil to 4.65 Mil, which yeah, is a sizable DPS loss, however, it takes a shit ton of "difficulty" out of your spec by playing Breath wrong.

It's better to play a worse performing talent build well than the best talent build terribly.

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Keeper of the Grove Balance Druid. If you line up every CD correctly, you get ~4sec window to dump the Empowered Starsurges from your set bonus before you drop buffs and do significantly less damage.

Do you have to track that though, or does Starsurge get highlighted automatically in the UI?

[Joshuaj]

Oh yeah, to be clear- I don't have an issue with Elune being associated with Life, just Shadowlands' attempt to pass it off as the whole answer when it doesn't fit or explain most of her pre-Shadowlands lore. And beyond that, the primary Light entities being created by an entirely different force would be an awful development.

I still think it'd make the most sense for her to be an independent deity- a Worldsoul that was fully born without falling into any force's influence (probably originating as Elunaria?), and is now neutral like us- that entered the Realm of Life. Who has connections with various forces, but isn't truly part of any of them (unless she chose to fully join Life at some point later, but I still dislike the idea of Life having the exact same kind of pantheon in the first place).

Maybe the Winter Queen could even be similar- "sister" Worldsouls born from neighboring planets, that entered opposing cosmic realms and built their own territories to work towards a shared goal. It'd contradict some origin myths for the Eternal Ones, but myths like that are, by definition, unconfirmed to begin with- and it makes a whole lot more sense than two goddesses created in and by entirely different realms somehow being sisters.

They could even do similar stuff with some of the other Eternal Ones too to help reconcile them with the wider universe. Maybe Denathrius could be a demon lord who infiltrated the realm of Death, who truly originated on Nathreza- bringing the Nathrezim back to a blend of their old lore and Shadowlands lore. It'd certainly be fitting for them to have another layer to their deceptions.


Ultimately, that's the kind of rewrite we got with the last patch, when they retconned the Brokers' backstory to make them fit into K'aresh. They can make it worth without breaking what we actually saw and experienced, just recontextualize it by having their origin myths turn out to be wrong.

How does it not explain anything regarding her pre-Shadowlands? The Tears of Elune embody the DREAM of what Azeroth could be, she has connections to Druids + Priests and represents her power through Azeroth's biggest moon.

And wanna know what the song of Elune displays in Classic WoW? Sounds of nature! Life!

Shadowlands only enhanced this connection VIA Ardenweald's connection to the Dream and confirming that the Winter Queen and Elune are sisters. DF and TWW only continued to double down on this with Elun'ahir + Eonar's friendship with Elune.

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Not just that they're entities- if we had gotten entities that better fit each force's theme- like, say, a bunch of Lich-Lords for Death, super Wild Gods and plant creatures for Life, Demonic warlords for Fel and truly alien creatures and stuff like Dimensius for Void- then at least the forces could each end up unique and interesting in their own right.

Instead, we got the Eternal Ones- super bland and generic rip-offs of the Titans- as a Pantheon of Death, along with the implication that the other forces also have the same exact structure. With Elune, one of the most interesting mysteries in the setting, seemingly retconned into being part of yet another homogenous Pantheon of Life, despite nearly a decade of hints tying her to the Light far more than anything else (with Velen theorizing she was a Naaru, the devs outright telling us he knew what he was talking about and was on the right track, and finally the reveal that she created the Prime Naaru).

The First Ones tend to take the blame for a lot of Shadowlands' issues, but honestly, aside from the implication that they made those same Pantheons for every force, they're mostly harmless as long as they remain a vague and mysterious part of the setting. Nothing wrong with bringing back some unknowable myths after the Titans became a known factor, just make it clear that what we "know" is just various different in-universe theories. The Eternal Ones, on the other hand, have caused far more damage to the setting than anything else so far (yes, even considering they shared an expansion with Sylvanas at her worst). They made Death feel like a boring copy of the Titans, with only the Primus feeling like he actually belonged with Death. They made the Titans feel lesser by introducing a cheap copy of the Pantheon, and implying that there were 4 more. And they undermined and contradicted existing lore to tie it in to Shadowlands' nonsense.


If they ever get acknowledged again in the future, it'd take a lot of work to fix them to work with the wider setting. Fortunately, seeing how Shadowlands stuff has been handled on K'aresh was reassuring- it looks like they're willing to make the retcons it'd take to make it work. Just look at how the Brokers' entire history was rewritten so they could work as K'areshi instead of Death natives, or the fact that Dimensius looked like what we'd expect from all the lore outside Shadowlands instead of giving the Void yet another knockoff Pantheon. It definitely gives me hope that, at the very least, they'll work to reconcile the Shadowlands stuff with the rest of the franchise (like, for example, giving answers about Elune that fit the decades of mystery before Shadowlands rather than just accepting that retcon as absolute truth).

How are the Eternal Ones rip offs the Titans? Death is far more than just liches or skulls or whatever.

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And being the top dog in the universe.

Can we please not pretend that this isn't the case? The Titans were effectively the "Gods" of the Warcraft universe. Regardless if they had the ultimate power to weave the laws of physics as they see fit, or if they just act as architects and shape an already made universe in their image.

Then come the First Ones. And we are told that even though the Titans have some control over the cosmic force, the First Ones are the actual embodiment of said cosmic forces, allegedly.

It just gets boring. For multiple reasons, one of them is that it has greatly diminished the role of the Titans themselves, especially with how close we've gotten to them and how close we're going to get in the future. (TLT)

Them being the top dogs was admittedly debatable back in the day, with theories in-universe suggesting the Old Gods could make even Sargeras afraid, to the old lore suggesting that a Titan fell after slaying an Old God, etc. You also had Elune, whose stance in the cosmic hierarchy was completely unknown at the time.

The current lore simply fleshes out these things further, by adding things to the Void, giving the Titans a proper placement in the cosmos, etc.