Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[xskarma]

I just had an idea that made way too much sense. What if at the very end of The Last Titan we have to fight some incarnation of Azeroth, and it turns into a fight like Tsulong, where Azeroth warps between Light and Void, like Beledar, and we have to fight and heal her depending on phase? Her Void form we would have to beat her down to force her back into her Light form, and in her Light form we need to heal her so she actually lives through the fight.

Not saying this would be some amazing boss fight idea, but the way Blizz has shown Beledar, and now the mounts for pre order for Midnight, and how the whole theme has been Light vs Void, it kind of makes sense for it to all come down to that at the very end, right?

[Ferlion]

We literally have delves, Prey, four different events smaller events, M+ and Raids.

Once again: No one can tell me what content they want in the game. They can just throw around weird buzzwords, but when push comes to shoves, it's always just these things that seem hype but add nothing to gameplay.

So, with a caveat that I ultimately think Dragonflight and TWW have been better than anything they've put out in years....

One of the biggest issues with WoW is exactly the idea that something needs to "add" to gameplay in a linear fashion, instead of adding gameplay. Which is to say that the thing with Delves, Prey, and all those events is that they are all the same gameplay. Sure, an argument can be made that its a different experience of the base gameplay, but even then I think that's a shoddy argument. Reality is, I play Delves the same way I play raid, the same way I play keys with very little difference in gameplay expression. The biggest difference is difficulty and how much attention I have to pay. With one or two exceptions, you use the same basic spells, in the same basic order, to do the same basic thing. And sure, it means you always have something to do.... But what there is to do is always the same thing.

In fairness, much of the reason for this is gear. Once you hit a certain threshold, the care you have to put into things is way less.

Also in fairness, Dragonflight and TWW have both introduced what is genuinely new expressions of gameplay, to varying degrees of success. Dragon Riding is something that is new to the game. It actively changed things up and impacted how you travel. And, despite it being much less popular, the truth is the Goblin cars did the same thing...with much less of an impact (personally, I think that's more the zone than the idea).

And in fairness to Midnight, that's exactly what housing is. It introduces gameplay to the game that is not previously present, or at the least expresses it in a way that's new. You can place, design, build, and shape a space. That's huge. Entire genre of games are based on that, and entire MMO bases have been held aloft by that idea.

But the thing is... most of WoW is ultimately just the same thing over and over, and often it feels like it's cycle is there because it's supposed to be there. To give a perfect example, one of the more common mechanics they like to use for non-combat events is "task based" interactions with the world.

"Lift up this weight. Water this plant. Step on this bug 8 times". And that's fine, I expect these things to exist in WoW because they are part of the ecosystem as it were. What becomes less fine is it's always the same format. It's always just "Let's make this potion and throw these ingredients as I list them out" in a convoluted quest or event. You stop caring about it as it's rote.

Just taking an idea off the top of my head that's been floating for a while. Blizzard like's using those tasks in the game world. It does give people something to do, it does keep people occupied, and those are important aspects for a gameplay loop. But those same things can be applied in different formats to give more variety.

Hell, a simple 5/10 man battleground that lasts 3 rounds, you have to investigate several rooms in one of the Space Goats ships. It uses all those same task based events Blizzard loves, but put it in the backdrop of "Several of the Players is/are actually a dreadlord and you all have to figure out who".

Hey, look. It's amongus with a WoW flair. And here's the thing.

This is something Blizzard very much used to do. Let's take Darkmoon faire for instance. I'd wager a guess that the majority of people don't know there is a VERY rough very dated version of Mario Kart using ground mounts. It doesn't feel great, because the engine at the time couldn't handle it, but it is an attempt to add something new.

You also have Pet Battles. While I personally think these are overly simplified compared to their obvious inspiration, some people love it. And I get it, the idea that Blizzard should spend hours upon hours balancing to the level of a completely different game isn't realistic, so it's understandable that it fell by the wayside.

Archeology was something people had a lot of fun with while it lasted. Instead of expanding on it, they've more or less tied it up into an "event" style system instead of the "Go explore, interact with this profession, follow the clues to find the treasure".

WoW's issue, and the biggest frustration (at least for me) with the gameplay is that for all these delves and events and Prey and M+s that they add, it's ultimately the same. The "we're going to go hunt for artifacts" type mini-games (which I'll add is more or less the exact same system as ESO, and that's addictive as hell, same as it was in WoW when it was there. The only real difference is ESO's is a bit more targeted and a lot more expansive items wise).

Blizzard has all of these options, all of these things already built into the game, but every time they add something that "adds to the gameplay", all it really adds is to the core gameplay. And I get that you may think that sounds like an obvious statement.

But even single player games that don't have anywhere near the expected lifespan of an MMO have non-core gameplay. KOTOR had Pazaak. Witcher had Gwent. GTA has just like.. So many options. Even if you don't count it's online mode, the base game's gameplay is just a massive trove of different mechanics that blend together so you always have something to do. Want to go do off the wall stunts? Feel free to use the excellent vehicle system. Wanna fight? The combats not the best, but it's more than capable. Want to have fun being outgunned and see how long you can last? The crime system exists.

Those all exist in a sort of "We have these systems, let's blend them together" style of gameplay that Blizzard doesn't really do, and it feels samey after awhile.

I'm going to use another example from ESO. And I want to be clear that ESO, while having it's strengths, is ultimately not as good as WoW, so im not approaching this as a "If only WoW could be that good". Or that this is a feature WoW should copy. It's just a good example of a different type of gameplay expression.

ESO has a feature called Heists. It is exactly what you'd expect. Puts you in a decently sized map, generated with guards, NPC's, hiding areas, etc. You have to stealth past these, hide when needed, and the less times you get seen or the less you kill, the higher the reward. It's something that uses aspects from the game that you use every day, just in a different format that makes it feel like you are doing something different.

WoW lacks that.

The races I thought were a fantastic start. It's something to do that isn't normal. They kind of just stopped expanding on them (though the EK cup is very, very fun). I think that type of stuff is what people want. Stuff that isn't just "some form of combat" and "Tasks for the sake of doing tasks"

[xskarma]

I think that type of stuff is what people want. Stuff that isn't just "some form of combat" and "Tasks for the sake of doing tasks"

And I think judging by Blizzard's efforts that they read from their feedback on the game and what drives engagement with it, that doing all this extra stuff that does not link into the core game play of using your character you build up to fight things is not as popular and actually quite quickly loses people's interest when it is expanded upon more and more.

The Races with Skyriding are a good example. It's super fun. But it's something I want to do on rare occasion, do it for a bit, and then not think about again for a while. It's nice to have 1 race always be part of the World Quest system. And it's good with each expansion to do a bunch of new races in the new areas, but for the vast majority of people this is something they do for a bit, and then they want to concentrate on their main purpose in game again, which is grow their character and fight things.

The game NEEDS distractions like that, but they need to stay distractions. Small things that you can do for a bit, and then stop interacting with without penalty. And I think WoW does have quite a few of those things that you can do, and that at the moment the balance is perfectly fine between distractions and core game play.

[Ferlion]

And I think judging by Blizzard's efforts that they read from their feedback on the game and what drives engagement with it, that doing all this extra stuff that does not link into the core game play of using your character you build up to fight things is not as popular and actually quite quickly loses people's interest when it is expanded upon more and more.

The Races with Skyriding are a good example. It's super fun. But it's something I want to do on rare occasion, do it for a bit, and then not think about again for a while. It's nice to have 1 race always be part of the World Quest system. And it's good with each expansion to do a bunch of new races in the new areas, but for the vast majority of people this is something they do for a bit, and then they want to concentrate on their main purpose in game again, which is grow their character and fight things.

The game NEEDS distractions like that, but they need to stay distractions. Small things that you can do for a bit, and then stop interacting with without penalty. And I think WoW does have quite a few of those things that you can do, and that at the moment the balance is perfectly fine between distractions and core game play.

Which is a valid point, up to a certain point.

That point being that ultimately there is a very real wall that's very easy to hit for the vast majority of people that leaves them with no path of progression. Some people may indulge in PvP as an escape, but PvP very much is also a distraction in WoW considering how little focus it gets, and that's great. I think PvP is fun once in a while as well.

Maybe I exist in a weird space where I'm not interested in moving to mythic raiding or uber high keys, but like. Once you get geared in mostly heroic ilvl gear, that core gameplay loop suddenly shrinks to only include currency farming as you aren't really getting any player progression except a single item the following week, week after week. Which means that core gameplay loop is, itself, a distraction in the same vein as Sky races. There's a very select group of people who push to get convenience items like portals from M+ dungeons after the gear is obtained, or mounts, but ultimately player progression and the core gameplay loop largely flatlines a few weeks in.

And hey, maybe it's because I play way too much that the case is that it's easy to find yourself with nothing but a grind for the sake of the grind. But I just think more distractions are better. I "want" to be distracted, because I like the game. I'm certainly not getting gear from the raids I do. I just like raiding with the people I raid with.

As much as I may hate the idea of borrowed power, I'll give it this. It at least meant you always had something to work on that impacted character strength and progression.

[Marlamin]

Happy "in a couple of weeks" timeframe beginning everyone, but don't get your hopes up for next week given there hasn't really been any movement yet. We're also getting close to 11.2.5 release/Lemix start (which aren't guaranteed to be the same week either), so I assume they want to get things going either before then or right after it.

[xskarma]

Happy "in a couple of weeks" timeframe beginning everyone, but don't get your hopes up for next week given there hasn't really been any movement yet. We're also getting close to 11.2.5 release/Lemix start (which aren't guaranteed to be the same week either), so I assume they want to get things going either before then or right after it.

Lemix is already official on the 7th of Oct, so if 11.2.5 does not launch on the same day then it can only be earlier so they have at most 3 weeks, and potentially only 2. There's no major US holidays they have to plan around, and no major content releases in other Blizz games that I am aware of either. So for the next 2 or 3 weeks it is full on Midnight Alpha hype train.

That said, do we know if there's any DAY in the week more likely to be the day where they pull the trigger?

Also hiya Marla <3

[Marlamin]

That said, do we know if there's any DAY in the week more likely to be the day where they pull the trigger?

Also hiya Marla <3

Test builds have generally been on Wednesdays (with some delayed into Thursday or worse if things go very wrong). I don't see the 17/9 happening unless they decide to move unusually fast in the next few days, which leaves 24/9 and 1/10 out of the next couple of weeks.

If Lemix does indeed start on the datamined starting date of 7/10 (with patch maybe being max a week earlier on 30/9?), 24/9 would be a good date to start the Alpha, if not, then October 1st.

Assuming they want to keep it out of the way of Lemix news-cycle wise, that is. Anything later would also start getting out of range of Ion's "in a couple of weeks" statement, but plans can change etc, so who knows.

Also, hi, <3.

[KyleEverett]

Happy "in a couple of weeks" timeframe beginning everyone, but don't get your hopes up for next week given there hasn't really been any movement yet. We're also getting close to 11.2.5 release/Lemix start (which aren't guaranteed to be the same week either), so I assume they want to get things going either before then or right after it.

My current theory is Sept 25th. My guess is based off the last two Alphas starting on a Thursday and using a theoretical Jan 20th prepatch and the same testing period as TWW plus two weeks for their Christmas break gives that day. If they want an extra week off for Thanksgiving though it could be the 18th too.

Regardless it's this month and one week either way doesn't really affect much. First Alpha build is only going to be Eversong and hopefully all the Apex talents.

[Marlamin]

My current theory is Sept 25th. My guess is based off the last two Alphas starting on a Thursday and using a theoretical Jan 20th prepatch and the same testing period as TWW plus two weeks for their Christmas break gives that day. If they want an extra week off for Thanksgiving though it could be the 18th too.

Regardless it's this month and one week either way doesn't really affect much. First Alpha build is only going to be Eversong and hopefully all the Apex talents.

Based on previous Alphas/Betas there would already have been some prep we could observe during the tail end of last week if it were to start next week, so unless they move unusually fast it won't be next week (unless its maybe on like Friday, but that seems silly). The week of September 22nd does seem like a good bet tailing into the week after if they do one of the private alphas like they did for DF/TWW.

[Limayria]

Which is a valid point, up to a certain point.

That point being that ultimately there is a very real wall that's very easy to hit for the vast majority of people that leaves them with no path of progression. Some people may indulge in PvP as an escape, but PvP very much is also a distraction in WoW considering how little focus it gets, and that's great. I think PvP is fun once in a while as well.

Maybe I exist in a weird space where I'm not interested in moving to mythic raiding or uber high keys, but like. Once you get geared in mostly heroic ilvl gear, that core gameplay loop suddenly shrinks to only include currency farming as you aren't really getting any player progression except a single item the following week, week after week. Which means that core gameplay loop is, itself, a distraction in the same vein as Sky races. There's a very select group of people who push to get convenience items like portals from M+ dungeons after the gear is obtained, or mounts, but ultimately player progression and the core gameplay loop largely flatlines a few weeks in.

And hey, maybe it's because I play way too much that the case is that it's easy to find yourself with nothing but a grind for the sake of the grind. But I just think more distractions are better. I "want" to be distracted, because I like the game. I'm certainly not getting gear from the raids I do. I just like raiding with the people I raid with.

As much as I may hate the idea of borrowed power, I'll give it this. It at least meant you always had something to work on that impacted character strength and progression.

This is a big reason why Im really excited about the idea of heroic world tiers, adding more stuff like the sacred flames ward buff that we could gradually scale up over time to help us in world content would be really interesting

Id also really like some itemization system changes focusing on getting base items easier with game play moving to trying to get better rolls of items from things like sockets or tertiary stats and reworking cantrip items into special enchants that can be applied to items similar to diablo 3 legendaries

[Ferlion]

This is a big reason why Im really excited about the idea of heroic world tiers, adding more stuff like the sacred flames ward buff that we could gradually scale up over time to help us in world content would be really interesting

Id also really like some itemization system changes focusing on getting base items easier with game play moving to trying to get better rolls of items from things like sockets or tertiary stats and reworking cantrip items into special enchants that can be applied to items similar to diablo 3 legendaries

I very much agree that the way WoW's "loot" system can be upgraded and altered. I actually really like the way sockets are, for the most part, handled. Ultimately I think a similar system can be added for cantrip enchants. It's super annoying to have a weapon just never drop, and the only reason it's an increase is because it's got a cantrip on it. It's also even more annoying if that cantrip is locked behind a portion of the game you don't do.

I really enjoy the way the Cantrip boots work in Manaforge, with them being an upgrade at any level because of the effect being so powerful, but being stronger in more than just stats as the gear gets higher. I.E. A Mythic pair is 50% cloak increase whereas a LFR is 20% increase. I think that tying cantrips into the vault "token" rewards could be a great option while being able to still control increased strengths behind ILVL rewards. I.E. "You can buy the 50% version if you've got the achievement to let you upgrade to gilded crests".

Note, this is work in progress off the top of my head idea type thing. I think the way loot in general can be handled better for sure.

[Limayria]

I very much agree that the way WoW's "loot" system can be upgraded and altered. I actually really like the way sockets are, for the most part, handled. Ultimately I think a similar system can be added for cantrip enchants. It's super annoying to have a weapon just never drop, and the only reason it's an increase is because it's got a cantrip on it. It's also even more annoying if that cantrip is locked behind a portion of the game you don't do.

I really enjoy the way the Cantrip boots work in Manaforge, with them being an upgrade at any level because of the effect being so powerful, but being stronger in more than just stats as the gear gets higher. I.E. A Mythic pair is 50% cloak increase whereas a LFR is 20% increase. I think that tying cantrips into the vault "token" rewards could be a great option while being able to still control increased strengths behind ILVL rewards. I.E. "You can buy the 50% version if you've got the achievement to let you upgrade to gilded crests".

Note, this is work in progress off the top of my head idea type thing. I think the way loot in general can be handled better for sure.

I would love to see a rework of the vault system, I'm still a big believer in getting one dinar per week and the dinar loot being awakened track so that you can upgrade it to max ilvl if you can earn the crest for it which is gated behind content completion especially pre crest cap unlock

But I also agree that would be an awesome way to handle cantrips especially if it allowed us to swap what slots cantrip items go onto so we could still utilize better stated boots/rings/whatever

I also really think diminishing returns on secondaries need to be reworked because it's such an obtuse system that can greatly impact the value of items in ways many players would never be aware of at all

[xskarma]

My current theory is Sept 25th. My guess is based off the last two Alphas starting on a Thursday and using a theoretical Jan 20th prepatch and the same testing period as TWW plus two weeks for their Christmas break gives that day. If they want an extra week off for Thanksgiving though it could be the 18th too.

Regardless it's this month and one week either way doesn't really affect much. First Alpha build is only going to be Eversong and hopefully all the Apex talents.

Yeah, I'm mostly really curious about the Apex Talents and the talent tree changes.

I'm fairly sure that the Apex talents will all be in, in some form, but I suspect that some of the talent tree changes might not be. And honestly, would not surprise me if we go into Alpha with a class or Hero Talent tree not being available. I vaguely recall that some class or another was not playable in any real way one of the last alphas we had. I want to say Shadow Priest or Hunter? Going to dig around to see if I can find it.

- - - Updated - - -

Well that was easy to find;

"Most, but not all, hero talent trees are available for testing." from the first alpha day of TWW.

So maybe I was too optimistic.

[Lady Atia]

This is a big reason why Im really excited about the idea of heroic world tiers, adding more stuff like the sacred flames ward buff that we could gradually scale up over time to help us in world content would be really interesting

Id also really like some itemization system changes focusing on getting base items easier with game play moving to trying to get better rolls of items from things like sockets or tertiary stats and reworking cantrip items into special enchants that can be applied to items similar to diablo 3 legendaries

So, you want titanforged back?^^

[Limayria]

So, you want titanforged back?^^

Id prefer something with less variance and I feel like fleshing out the existing socket/teritary stat system would offer a way for repeat drops to maybe be some what useful

Id also totally accept gear having a small chance to drop one track higher but that would obviously be capped at hero track and worthless

[Lady Atia]

Id prefer something with less variance and I feel like fleshing out the existing socket/teritary stat system would offer a way for repeat drops to maybe be some what useful

Id also totally accept gear having a small chance to drop one track higher but that would obviously be capped at hero track and worthless

Yeah but you say it yourself, than it would be useless. Any item that is not on mythic track is useless besides the cantrip items (and that's a shitty system honestly, it feels bad to loose 10 ilvl for an effect). It's basically like lfr and normal difficulty which have 0 value at all besides seeing the base mechanics of bosses in week 1 and giving you easier tier pieces at the start.

[Limayria]

Yeah but you say it yourself, than it would be useless. Any item that is not on mythic track is useless besides the cantrip items (and that's a shitty system honestly, it feels bad to loose 10 ilvl for an effect). It's basically like lfr and normal difficulty which have 0 value at all besides seeing the base mechanics of bosses in week 1 and giving you easier tier pieces at the start.

Tbh I'd much rather upgrade tracks be removed completely and he only gating to upgrades being crest and valor stones

[Makorus]

Tbh I'd much rather upgrade tracks be removed completely and he only gating to upgrades being crest and valor stones

The meta of running 2s exclusively, and having to run LFR and Normal every week sounds absolutely atrocious. The only thing that should work like that should be Dinar stuff (but still gated by actually getting the kill/12s).

[Limayria]

The meta of running 2s exclusively, and having to run LFR and Normal every week sounds absolutely atrocious. The only thing that should work like that should be Dinar stuff (but still gated by actually getting the kill/12s).

lmao we should make the game worse for everyone because some people lack the self control to not do shit they hate for stuff in a video game

you also wouldn't need to run "every week" youd have the option to run every possible option open to you until you get the one drop you need a season then you could run literally whatever you want at an appropriate level to get your stuff upgraded

which would also work amazingly well alongside changing the vault to one dinar a week that gives actual awakened track gear unless youre also a person that thinks someone playing and getting 4 months of vaults being fully geared in (pre upgraded) gear is really a problem

[Makorus]

lmao we should make the game worse for everyone because some people lack the self control to not do shit they hate for stuff in a video game

you also wouldn't need to run "every week" youd have the option to run every possible option open to you until you get the one drop you need a season then you could run literally whatever you want at an appropriate level to get your stuff upgraded

which would also work amazingly well alongside changing the vault to one dinar a week that gives actual awakened track gear unless youre also a person that thinks someone playing and getting 4 months of vaults being fully geared in (pre upgraded) gear is really a problem

Faster doesn't mean better lmao. Might as well let remove gear entirely then, and just upgrade the slot.

I love doing content but if the most optimal way to get upgrades is also the easiest, then why the fuck would I not?

The problem with quick gearing is that anyone that's not ultra-casual gets fucked over tremendously, because it means Blizzard balances around the fact that gearing is easy and everyone has their BIS setup in like Week 4.

I just don't see why I should be able to get Mythic gear from LFR. This is just Titanforging but on every item.