Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Makorus]

Aside from gameplay, Rogue has felt absent of a class identity for a while now, Outlaw especially. I've said it before, but Fatebound completely misses the mark in understanding the fantasy behind a rogue. Why on earth would an Outlaw Rogue depend on the flip of a coin? They're a trick, a cheat-- the coin would always be heads.

I also hate and despise that both Assassination and Outlaw are so reliant on Vanish.

[milkmustache]

I also hate and despise that both Assassination and Outlaw are so reliant on Vanish.

I agree. I've always wanted to make it work, but it feels so disjointed. I'd be genuinely shocked if there isn't a serious rework coming for them. My big fear is that outlaw continues to be a little off shoot still in the "eh we'll figure it out one day" area.

Just let the people play a pirate/highwayman. I don't even know if stealth is necessary for the playstyle.

[Nymrohd]

I also hate and despise that both Assassination and Outlaw are so reliant on Vanish.

I think Vanish makes sense for Assassination but not for Outlaw.

[Aucald]

My assumption is that the ascended are sterile but I don't get the impression that the Kaheti need queens to reproduce the way the mantid do. As @Aucald posted up top, Azjol'nerub doesn't and the aqir don't have them and reproduce just fine. The Queen seems to be more of a specific sub-type gene-engineered to rule and carry hereditary memory rather than necessary to continue the species.

Checking again, yeah, traditionally the wife eats the husband after marriage and we know that they just breed regularly since Arax'ne got this passed on by her mother.

I think the bit with Klaskin and the references to wives consuming their husbands is more a tongue-in-cheek reference to the behavior of some real-world spiders, but the text itself posits this more as a societal thing (an archaic one at that) and not some biological imprimatur for Nerubians, who obviously aren't literal spiders. As for the actual purpose of the king and queen as roles in Nerubian society, I don't think we have any hard data on that. Nerubians seem to breed in the more traditional humanoid manner insofas that goes, as evidenced by Klaskin's own plight, and the reference to such things as grandparents highlights a more prosocial hierarchy of family as opposed to the eusocial structures of colony insects like ants or bees. In this way, I think the roles of king and queen are more traditional than socially functional, in that they're traditional monarchs and rulers, but don't really have a specialized eusocial role where they're the sole producers of offspring and the like. Obviously, their direct offspring would still be in the royal line, so to speak, making them important to the society in general.

[Makorus]

I think Vanish makes sense for Assassination but not for Outlaw.

In concept, yeah, but they very much want Subtletly to be the spec that focuses hard on Vanish/Stealth, so it just feels tacked on to Assassination.

Quite frankly, I wish they would get rid of Vanish entirely, simply because it's such a clunky ability.

[Nymrohd]

In concept, yeah, but they very much want Subtletly to be the spec that focuses hard on Vanish/Stealth, so it just feels tacked on to Assassination.

Quite frankly, I wish they would get rid of Vanish entirely, simply because it's such a clunky ability.

Another thing is, rogues are a poor solo class already and vanish just resets everything when solo so it cannot be used as a cooldown.

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I think the bit with Klaskin and the references to wives consuming their husbands is more a tongue-in-cheek reference to the behavior of some real-world spiders, but the text itself posits this more as a societal thing (an archaic one at that) and not some biological imprimatur for Nerubians, who obviously aren't literal spiders. As for the actual purpose of the king and queen as roles in Nerubian society, I don't think we have any hard data on that. Nerubians seem to breed in the more traditional humanoid manner insofas that goes, as evidenced by Klaskin's own plight, and the reference to such things as grandparents highlights a more prosocial hierarchy of family as opposed to the eusocial structures of colony insects like ants or bees. In this way, I think the roles of king and queen are more traditional than socially functional, in that they're traditional monarchs and rulers, but don't really have a specialized eusocial role where they're the sole producers of offspring and the like. Obviously, their direct offspring would still be in the royal line, so to speak, making them important to the society in general.

https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Queen_Anub%27izek

The Nerubian Queen is an Old God construct merging lord and sage characteristics. The original purpose seems to be that she creates a strong sense of loyalty so they could force the nerubians into hopeless combat. Perhaps she was meant to be their propagandist but failed to consider what giving natural loyalty to a single person would do without guaranteeing loyalty to them. And it seems she was formed before the arrival of the Pantheon so they were probably fighting among themselves and other aqir.

[Lady Atia]

Another thing is, rogues are a poor solo class already and vanish just resets everything when solo so it cannot be used as a cooldown.

Honestly, that part could easily be fixed with a choice talents note that's primaly aimed at open world content. Like literally "if you vanish in combat you won't reset and keep your target in combat".

[Aucald]

https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Queen_Anub%27izek

The Nerubian Queen is an Old God construct merging lord and sage characteristics. The original purpose seems to be that she creates a strong sense of loyalty so they could force the nerubians into hopeless combat. Perhaps she was meant to be their propagandist but failed to consider what giving natural loyalty to a single person would do without guaranteeing loyalty to them

I presume this means that the Queen possesses royal pheromones that can compel obedience and loyalty, similar to those used by other Nerubian leaders to communicate rank, and so forth. We don't know if subsequent queens followed Anub'izek's line, though, or kept her modifications, or to what degree otherwise. We do know from quests in TWW in Azj-Kahet that Ansurek and presumably Neferess had specialized pheromones, such as the Queen's Phermones item available from the Several Threads, which allows full access to the City of Threads without the need to worry about the guards, but doesn't seem to compel anyone to obey you.

[Nymrohd]

I presume this means that the Queen possesses royal pheromones that can compel obedience and loyalty, similar to those used by other Nerubian leaders to communicate rank, and so forth. We don't know if subsequent queens followed Anub'izek's line, though, or kept her modifications, or to what degree otherwise. We do know from quests in TWW in Azj-Kahet that Ansurek and presumably Neferess had specialized pheromones, such as the Queen's Phermones item available from the Several Threads, which allows full access to the City of Threads without the need to worry about the guards, but doesn't seem to compel anyone to obey you.

I don't think it was compulsion. It's more loyalty. Perhaps the feeling that you are addressing a parent which would explain why she is as a mother.

[Aucald]

I don't think it was compulsion. It's more loyalty. Perhaps the feeling that you are addressing a parent which would explain why she is as a mother.

Coming from the Old Gods and based on their desires on how to use the Nerubians, I'd argue more for strict compulsion than just compelling loyalty. I guess it's an academic difference, though.

[Nymrohd]

Coming from the Old Gods and based on their desires on how to use the Nerubians, I'd argue more for strict compulsion than just compelling loyalty. I guess it's an academic difference, though.

See, I don't see them ever doing straight up domination/compulsion. Their cultists seem to actually believe in them. Madness is closer to love than compulsion or even indoctrination; those are tools of Order.

[huth]

Honestly, that part could easily be fixed with a choice talents note that's primaly aimed at open world content. Like literally "if you vanish in combat you won't reset and keep your target in combat".

I think it would be better if Vanish was decoupled from damage increasing talents and kept as a pure panic button.

[Makorus]

I think it would be better if Vanish was decoupled from damage increasing talents and kept as a pure panic button.

It never really did anything other than be awkward. It's just a normal DPS cooldown that changes your abilities slightly, and awkwardly changing your main bar.

I love Stealth as a concept but Vanish always just felt... weird and unneeded to me.

[Aucald]

See, I don't see them ever doing straight up domination/compulsion. Their cultists seem to actually believe in them. Madness is closer to love than compulsion or even indoctrination; those are tools of Order.

Xal'atath doesn't seem to cleave to that doctrine, at least not based on what she does with Y'tekhi after they're Ascended and Xal'atath quite literally assumes direct control and tries to gut the PC and their allies. In addition to the implication that she could do that to practically any Ascended Nerubian bearing the Black Blood, and that it was designed to facilitate such control if it proved necessary. She may prefer subtle corruption and longer-term coercion, but if push comes to shove, she doesn't seem to put direct possession and control off the table.

[Super Dickmann]

I think the bit with Klaskin and the references to wives consuming their husbands is more a tongue-in-cheek reference to the behavior of some real-world spiders, but the text itself posits this more as a societal thing (an archaic one at that) and not some biological imprimatur for Nerubians, who obviously aren't literal spiders. As for the actual purpose of the king and queen as roles in Nerubian society, I don't think we have any hard data on that. Nerubians seem to breed in the more traditional humanoid manner insofas that goes, as evidenced by Klaskin's own plight, and the reference to such things as grandparents highlights a more prosocial hierarchy of family as opposed to the eusocial structures of colony insects like ants or bees. In this way, I think the roles of king and queen are more traditional than socially functional, in that they're traditional monarchs and rulers, but don't really have a specialized eusocial role where they're the sole producers of offspring and the like. Obviously, their direct offspring would still be in the royal line, so to speak, making them important to the society in general.

Yeah, it's mostly a joke quest but the actual lore regarding nerubian reproduction gels well with what you already posted re: what we already know about nerubians from Wrath. I agree with what you've posted further on regarding that the Queen as being the only role devised before the nerubians were their own people is a hint that the role was to provide a field leader that'd prevent the aqir headed by one Old God from being commandeered by another one and also with @Nymrohd that this isn't mind control exactly but a strong sense of loyalty. Tying in with your later post, that's also the way the pheromones are different from Xal's form of control over the ascended, in that by separating themselves from their people they become extension of her that she can hijack, something that the queens can't do with their followers. It'd also track with the way the mantid queens can't compel direct control.

That said and venturing purely into speculation I think you could make a decent case that Ansurek harvested her mother's pheromnoes like how Zev'kall did with Anub'azal and post-ascension she couldn't generate them. Hence why you didn't have any nerubians turning on Neferess regarding the Old Gods or declining to help Anub'arak, but you've got strong moves vs. Ansurek.

[Nymrohd]

Xal'atath doesn't seem to cleave to that doctrine, at least not based on what she does with Y'tekhi after they're Ascended and Xal'atath quite literally assumes direct control and tries to gut the PC and their allies. In addition to the implication that she could do that to practically any Ascended Nerubian bearing the Black Blood, and that it was designed to facilitate such control if it proved necessary. She may prefer subtle corruption and longer-term coercion, but if push comes to shove, she doesn't seem to put direct possession and control off the table.

You are right on that. I would like to think that the Old Gods and the Void diverge in that; they diverge in so much after all with the Void having become more about domination and might makes right/survival of the fittest instead of its earlier interpretation of corruption, hiveminds, madness and flesh.

Honestly I am bored of the cosmic Void. It's just Fel but violet/blue.

[Aucald]

That said and venturing purely into speculation I think you could make a decent case that Ansurek harvested her mother's pheromnoes like how Zev'kall did with Anub'azal and post-ascension she couldn't generate them. Hence why you didn't have any nerubians turning on Neferess regarding the Old Gods or declining to help Anub'arak, but you've got strong moves vs. Ansurek.

Ansurek wasn't Ascended, though, at least insofar as I recall. When we encounter her within Nerub-ar Palace, she's still a basic Nerubian queen with the standard arachnoid appearance and body. The Ascended are confirmed to be unable to produce pheromones like a normal Nerubian can, though, at least not without further genetic updates and innovation, which were being researched at the Transformatory. Zev'kall was dependent on Anub'azal's command pheromones to keep his station, as he was unable to secrete his own. Neferess' preserved pheromones may have been more potent than those of the younger Ansurek, though, or else the pheromones of modern Nerubians simply can't compel absolute loyalty, only a predilection that can be overcome with the exercise of individual will.

[COBRAstriker]

People don't like to hear it but Metzen is "just" a Blizzard employee at this point. His absence isn't any more concerning than Ion (who we haven't really seen for a long time prior to Gamescom) or Terran Gregory or whoever.

He's the executive creative director of Warcraft, not just some employee. That's a leadership position. A lot of us were hoping that with his return, the writing would improve. Yes, he made mistakes as well. Yes, not everything he wrote was good. But I cannot hold any grudges against the man because he also gave us some of the most iconic characters ever, not just in WoW, but gaming overall, characters which Blizzard are still using to this day for marketing, and which have reached a level of success that the new guard has failed to replicate for many years now, and I doubt that they ever will

And the thing is, we don't even know the names of the actual writers on WoW. I'm only aware of Anne Stickney. We just know that the creative process is "democratized" now, which means that every story and character will be decided by a committee (what a giant mistake to make, I have serious doubts about WoW's stories and characterization going forward), and that Metzen, supposedly, is at the helm of it. I would love to know who wrote the Draenei heritage questline, more of that please. I would also love to know who wrote the Arathi questline, no more of that please. So until we know who the actual writers are, we just refer to Metzen as far as stories go as he's he "face" of it

I have nothing against Maria, but that's not the type of energy (or lack of) that WoW needs. A lot of people got their hopes up for the WSS solely because of Metzen, as there are very few good things to say about most of the writers on WoW right now, so him being MIA during an expansion reveal, for a trilogy that supposedly he pitched, is kind of a big deal and worrying

[Super Dickmann]

Ansurek wasn't Ascended, though, at least insofar as I recall. When we encounter her within Nerub-ar Palace, she's still a basic Nerubian queen with the standard arachnoid appearance and body. The Ascended are confirmed to be unable to produce pheromones like a normal Nerubian can, though, at least not without further genetic updates and innovation, which were being researched at the Transformatory. Zev'kall was dependent on Anub'azal's command pheromones to keep his station, as he was unable to secrete his own. Neferess' preserved pheromones may have been more potent than those of the younger Ansurek, though, or else the pheromones of modern Nerubians simply can't compel absolute loyalty, only a predilection that can be overcome with the exercise of individual will.

The main thing is that Ansurek has two designs. The one she has at the start of the pre-release cinematic, where she's much closer to Neferess and then the one she has at the end of that one and in the game itself. We know ascension has different iterations, the default ascended, but the flying ones, the G'huun guy in the raid and so on. So while not transformed in the default way, I think we can safely assume Xal helped modify Ansurek.

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You are right on that. I would like to think that the Old Gods and the Void diverge in that; they diverge in so much after all with the Void having become more about domination and might makes right/survival of the fittest instead of its earlier interpretation of corruption, hiveminds, madness and flesh.

Honestly I am bored of the cosmic Void. It's just Fel but violet/blue.

The visual design of the cosmic void is boring (and also derivative of League, which isn't exactly a colossus of creative art design). But mentality-wise I think they are both just versions of the same. The original Old God minions (per Chronicle) are just spawns of the body, extension of whichever Old God is running them. They're nto hiveminds, as there's only one mind steering the others, which fits with how the ascended are individuals on paper, but Xal can hijack any of them at will, since they're part of her body. The first thing they did when landing on the world is not to join forces to take the soul, but to slug it out for who gets to do it. What we're due to see in Midnight is just that, but with ugly Squidward-looking dudes instead of the Old Gods.

[Avikur]

I think it would be better if Vanish was decoupled from damage increasing talents and kept as a pure panic button.

yep, 100%, it doesn't make any sense as a rotational ability, it'd be like paladins using shields to gain a DPS buff, or warlocks using soulstone for a damage increase, they are defensive panic buttons, not offensive damage abilities or buff buttons.