Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Nightshade711]

I sorta wonder what classes would even see significant changes. Warrior?

Most of the classes are either in a pretty stable state (evoker, druid, monk, priest, lock) or just recently got major changes this expansion or in the back half of DF (rogue, DK, paladin, shaman, hunter, mage). DH would be in the running with warrior except that I think with the new spec being added, they'd probably want to keep the other two familiar.

Hoping for outlaw.
It’s one of the few specs I’ll say is just garbage right now.

[Scyth]

I sorta wonder what classes would even see significant changes. Warrior?

Most of the classes are either in a pretty stable state (evoker, druid, monk, priest, lock) or just recently got major changes this expansion or in the back half of DF (rogue, DK, paladin, shaman, hunter, mage). DH would be in the running with warrior except that I think with the new spec being added, they'd probably want to keep the other two familiar.

Warrior and Rogue are due some love. Other than them, Affl Lock, Frost Mage and hopefully they rework Aug lol

We are definitely getting at least a blog post this week though surely?

[doledippers]

I sorta wonder what classes would even see significant changes. Warrior?

rogue is pretty overdue. safe bet that DH is getting a pretty big overhaul to the class tree and we'll see some changes to the spec and hero talent trees

[Darkarath]

Yeah I would say that Rogues are going to see the biggest changes of all classes. Probably DHs too since we are getting a new spec and that is bound to alter things. Also really curious about Aug Evoker.

The most important thing is that they let DHs wield Scythes and the fantasy of the Devourer spec would be perfect. They have a skills called Reap for Christ's sake.

[Jaggler]

Just to have some other stuff to discuss. What would people really want for Housing that would elevate it.
For me, the music box from the Garrisons, and more music discs. Housing will probably be great, but the background music is one of those things you notice immediately, and if it's always the same thing, then it will get stale fast.

Never thought about it, but having a juke-box style thinge would be nice. Or just be able to set the music without an actual object. What is housing worth, if i can't play the pandaria inn kazoo part on loop?

[Hearthfinder]

Survival Hunter need a thematic overhaul imo.

Move away from explosives and gadgets, first of all. Traps and poisons are fine in general but it doesn't really make sense to blow things up when you're trying to stalk the wilds with your trusted pet. It's such a WoD-era take on it.

Then introduce an optional one-handed playstyle (inspired by Rexxar and Forest Trolls). Being able to ambush unsuspecting prey from the shadows makes perfect sense. Tracking, stalking, ambushing.

Let players branch off into building up their pet as the main damage dealer (supporting them with poisons and stuff), or themselves as a frenzied, hatchet-wielding maniac.

There should definitely be an element of strealth involved. Like an upgraded version of Camouflage that gives you increased damage if used properly. Not sure how to properly distinguish it from Stealth but I'm sure they can work something out. Maybe you literally have to leap out of Camouflage in order to get the benefits.

[Santandame]

In concept, yeah, but they very much want Subtletly to be the spec that focuses hard on Vanish/Stealth, so it just feels tacked on to Assassination.

Quite frankly, I wish they would get rid of Vanish entirely, simply because it's such a clunky ability.

There is literally no reason to get rid of Vanish completely as opposed to just making it irrelevant in terms of DPS rotation.

It’s a great ability for a number of reasons that I shouldn’t really have to outline as it’s just stating the obvious. But especially so for PvP; not counting world content or just flavour.

Removing Vanish completely as an ability is mental thinking. Just don’t have it as part of a DPS rotation.

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He's the executive creative director of Warcraft, not just some employee. That's a leadership position. A lot of us were hoping that with his return, the writing would improve. Yes, he made mistakes as well. Yes, not everything he wrote was good. But I cannot hold any grudges against the man because he also gave us some of the most iconic characters ever, not just in WoW, but gaming overall, characters which Blizzard are still using to this day for marketing, and which have reached a level of success that the new guard has failed to replicate for many years now, and I doubt that they ever will

And the thing is, we don't even know the names of the actual writers on WoW. I'm only aware of Anne Stickney. We just know that the creative process is "democratized" now, which means that every story and character will be decided by a committee (what a giant mistake to make, I have serious doubts about WoW's stories and characterization going forward), and that Metzen, supposedly, is at the helm of it. I would love to know who wrote the Draenei heritage questline, more of that please. I would also love to know who wrote the Arathi questline, no more of that please. So until we know who the actual writers are, we just refer to Metzen as far as stories go as he's he "face" of it

I have nothing against Maria, but that's not the type of energy (or lack of) that WoW needs. A lot of people got their hopes up for the WSS solely because of Metzen, as there are very few good things to say about most of the writers on WoW right now, so him being MIA during an expansion reveal, for a trilogy that supposedly he pitched, is kind of a big deal and worrying

Listen, I like Metzen just as much as you, and I agree with the vast majority of what you’re saying here but I think it’s a little far fetched to say some of the characters he created are amongst the most iconic characters in gaming overall. As iconic as the likes of Arthas, Illidan, Thrall and Jaina are within Warcraft; they’re not iconic outside of that sphere.

Mario, Sonic, Master Chief, Crash Bandicoot, Spyro the Dragon, Link, Pikachu, Pac Man, Arthur Morgan, Commander Shepherd, Lara Croft, Solid Snake, Kratos just to name a few they are not. Most gaming fans wouldn’t be able to put a name to those Warcraft characters I mentioned. Some might recognise them.

[Enrif]

Mario, Sonic, Master Chief, Crash Bandicoot, Spyro the Dragon, Link, Pikachu, Pac Man, Arthur Morgan, Commander Shepherd, Lara Croft, Solid Snake, Kratos just to name a few they are not. Most gaming fans wouldn’t be able to put a name to those Warcraft characters I mentioned. Some might recognise them.

Arthur Morgan doesn't belong on that list, had to google who that was. But the Lich King Arthas DOES belong on that list.

[Santandame]

Arthur Morgan doesn't belong on that list, had to google who that was. But the Lich King Arthas DOES belong on that list.

You are tripping if you think the Lich King is an iconic video game character up there with the likes of those characters in terms of recognition. Doubly so if you don’t think that perhaps the best received protagonist in modern times for video games isn’t. He’s literally the face of one of Rockstars biggest games - one of the biggest video games of all time. 77 million copies sold worldwide vs. Wrath’s 4? by the time the expansion concluded.

Warcraft players are a niche, those that pay attention to the story even more so. Arthas definitely isn’t amongst those listed.

[Enrif]

You are tripping if you think the Lich King is an iconic video game character up there with the likes of those characters in terms of recognition. Doubly so if you don’t think that perhaps the best received protagonist in modern times for video games isn’t. He’s literally the face of one of Rockstars biggest games - one of the biggest video games of all time.

Warcraft players are a niche, those that pay attention to the story even more so. Arthas definitely isn’t amongst those listed.

who's that morgan guy anyway? just looks like a random cowboy dude. No i never played any red dead redemption games, so i have no bias towards him either. But i never played halo, god of war, witcher or mass effect and their characters are also iconic to me. The lich king is iconic.

[Santandame]

who's that morgan guy anyway? just looks like a random cowboy dude. No i never played any red dead redemption games, so i have no bias towards him either. But i never played halo, god of war, witcher or mass effect and their characters are also iconic to me. The lich king is iconic.

Who’s that Arthas guy anyway? He just looks like a Darth Vader ripoff.

Is what most people outside of the WoW gaming sphere would say. What makes him iconic? He’s certainly not considered by gamers outside of our WoW bubble. He’s rarely found on mainstream lists for gamings most recognisable characters. I’d argue that Sylvanas at this point is more recognisable outside of the WoW sphere than the Lich King is.

I’m not arguing that the Lich King isn’t iconic. He is absolutely an iconic Warcraft character. He absolutely isn’t one of the most iconic characters in gaming overall.

[Enrif]

Who’s that Arthas guy anyway? He just looks like a Darth Vader ripoff.

Is what most people outside of the WoW gaming sphere would say. What makes him iconic? He’s certainly not considered by gamers outside of our WoW bubble. He’s rarely found on mainstream lists for gamings most recognisable characters. I’d argue that Sylvanas at this point is more recognisable outside of the WoW sphere than the Lich King is.

I’m not arguing that the Lich King isn’t iconic. He is absolutely an iconic Warcraft character. He absolutely isn’t one of the most iconic characters in gaming overall.

the lich king is iconic

5th place
https://www.denofgeek.com/games/best...villains-ever/

9th place
https://www.eneba.com/hub/games/best...DM_QhsGol913wN

13th place
https://www.ranker.com/list/best-vid...ains/loganrapp

19th place
https://www.gamesradar.com/villains-in-video-games/

one of 11
https://mobalytics.gg/news/guides/video-game-villains

[Santandame]

the lich king is iconic

5th place
https://www.denofgeek.com/games/best...villains-ever/

9th place
https://www.eneba.com/hub/games/best...DM_QhsGol913wN

13th place
https://www.ranker.com/list/best-vid...ains/loganrapp

19th place
https://www.gamesradar.com/villains-in-video-games/

one of 11
https://mobalytics.gg/news/guides/video-game-villains

You’ve listed some pretty niche sources there none of which I’m able to find on the first few pages of a google search for “video games most iconic characters” and a few of which are instead titled “video game characters we think were cooler than the heroes”, “video games villains you love to hate” “video game villains we’d like to see more of”. Which also suggests you had to specifically search up Arthas/The Lich King - which again; doesn’t seem particularly iconic. Iconic characters are those that the majority can easily recognise, tell you about, and praise.

None of which really supports the point that the Lich King is one of the most iconic characters in all of video games. Especially so when amongst his contemporaries in those lists are the likes of Gaunter O’Dimm who whilst a brilliant character, is certainly not one of the most iconic characters in all of gaming - but again, the list you linked that he’s in wasn’t regarding that context, it was video game villains we think are cool.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Within the franchise of Warcraft, The Lich King is iconic. In overall gaming, he isn’t because the vast majority of gamers won’t know who he is.

Using a little bit of personal evidence, as you did earlier on - I had no idea who Arthas was until I played Wrath of the Lich King. There’s a good chance if I never played WoW I still wouldn’t know who he was. I didn’t play Red Dead Redemption 2 until 5 years after its release. Before I played it, I knew who Arthur Morgan was.

Alternatively my partner plays WoW. She has no idea who Arthas or the Lich King is. She does know Sylvanas, Jaina and Illidan though.

But that’s just my own personal experience.

You keep telling me he’s iconic. Can you tell me why he’s iconic to the wider gamer player base other than that you play WoW and you like him? Apart from linking niche lists that actually aren’t regarding video games most iconic characters (ones that have the likes of Mario, Sonic, Crash, Master Chief etc in them).

[huth]

You are tripping if you think the Lich King is an iconic video game character up there with the likes of those characters in terms of recognition. Doubly so if you don’t think that perhaps the best received protagonist in modern times for video games isn’t. He’s literally the face of one of Rockstars biggest games - one of the biggest video games of all time. 77 million copies sold worldwide vs. Wrath’s 4? by the time the expansion concluded.

Warcraft players are a niche, those that pay attention to the story even more so. Arthas definitely isn’t amongst those listed.

You're confusing iconic with popular. Anybody who does recognise Arthas will immediately think of WarCraft. Cowboys? Do you know how much Wild West stuff there is?

[Enrif]

You’ve listed some pretty niche sources there none of which I’m able to find on the first few pages of a google search for “video games most iconic characters” and a few of which are instead titled “video game characters we think were cooler than the heroes”, “video games villains you love to hate” “video game villains we’d like to see more of”. Which also suggests you had to specifically search up Arthas/The Lich King - which again; doesn’t seem particularly iconic. Iconic characters are those that the majority can easily recognise, tell you about, and praise.

None of which really supports the point that the Lich King isn’t iconic one of the most iconic characters in all of video games. Especially so when amongst his contemporaries in those lists are the likes of Gaunter O’Dimm who whilst a brilliant character, is certainly not one of the most iconic characters in all of gaming - but again, the list you linked that he’s in wasn’t regarding that context, it was video game villains we think are cool.

if you look at most of those "most iconic of ALL games" you see Link but not Ganondorf, you see Mario but not Bowser, you see Solid Snake but not Revolver Ocelot. This is a biased search as these lists usually focus on the heroes, not the villains, and the Lich King is a villain. So you search for "most iconic villains of all games" and oh wonder, the lich kings pops up again and again.

So yes, the lich king is iconic.

[Santandame]

You're confusing iconic with popular. Anybody who does recognise Arthas will immediately think of WarCraft. Cowboys? Do you know how much Wild West stuff there is?

Much like you see an image of Arthas and think of Warcraft, if you see an image of Arthur Morgan you’d think of RDR and alternatively if you see anything related to RDR you’re most likely going to think of Arthur.

The difference is, the two versus each other - who’s going to be recognised by more people? I can tell you it won’t be Arthas.

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if you look at most of those "most iconic of ALL games" you see Link but not Ganondorf, you see Mario but not Bowser, you see Solid Snake but not Revolver Ocelot. This is a biased search as these lists usually focus on the heroes, not the villains, and the Lich King is a villain. So you search for "most iconic villains of all games" and oh wonder, the lich kings pops up again and again.

So yes, the lich king is iconic.

That’s because Ocelot isn’t as iconic as Solid Snake lol or even really iconic at all to overall gaming. Bowser is a different beast, he’s arguably just as iconic and you will see him on those lists. Maybe it’s because the villains aren’t usually as iconic as the heroes? That’s not bias.

Again, an iconic character to Warcraft yes, not to gaming as a whole. Which is fine, I also like Arthas; but I’m under no illusion as to his impact and recognition to gaming in general.

[Sondrelk]

Much like you see an image of Arthas and think of Warcraft, if you see an image of Arthur Morgan you’d think of RDR and alternatively if you see anything related to RDR you’re most likely going to think of Arthur.

The difference is, the two versus each other - who’s going to be recognised by more people? I can tell you it won’t be Arthas.

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That’s because Ocelot isn’t as iconic as Solid Snake lol or even really iconic at all to overall gaming. Bowser is a different beast, he’s arguably just as iconic and you will see him on those lists. Maybe it’s because the villains aren’t usually as iconic as the heroes? That’s not bias.

Again, an iconic character to Warcraft yes, not to gaming as a whole. Which is fine, I also like Arthas; but I’m under no illusion as to his impact and recognition to gaming in general.

Having never played Red Dead Redemption, I can confidently say that I would only recognize Arthur as "that guy from one of the RDR games", and only on the basis that it's the only high profile western themed game I know of.

[Santandame]

Having never played Red Dead Redemption, I can confidently say that I would only recognize Arthur as "that guy from one of the RDR games", and only on the basis that it's the only high profile western themed game I know of.

That’s fair enough, but you’d still recognise him. Which conversely you could say back to me about the Lich King, but I’d argue back that more eyes have been on Arthur due to game sales alone when comparing the two. Not even taking into account outside factors such as TikTok etc.

Regardless, the main point made was that none of Warcraft’s characters are iconic to gaming when compared to the actual iconic video game characters, Lich King included. Not who’s more iconic to gaming Lich King or Arthur.

[Sondrelk]

That’s fair enough, but you’d still recognise him. Which conversely you could say back to me about the Lich King, but I’d argue back that more eyes have been on Arthur due to game sales alone when comparing the two. Not even taking into account outside factors such as TikTok etc.

Regardless, the main point made was that none of Warcraft’s characters are iconic to gaming when compared to the actual iconic video game characters, Lich King included. Not who’s more iconic to gaming Lich King or Arthur.

Games sales is not the core metric to consider when arguing iconic characters.

Mario isn't iconic because Mario Kart 8 sold millions of copies. He is iconic because he has been in the public consciousness long enough to be recognizable outside just being the guy from the games.

Arthas has been in the public long enough to be recognizable as something beyond just the villain from Wrath of the Lich King.

[Santandame]

Games sales is not the core metric to consider when arguing iconic characters.

Mario isn't iconic because Mario Kart 8 sold millions of copies. He is iconic because he has been in the public consciousness long enough to be recognizable outside just being the guy from the games.

Arthas has been in the public long enough to be recognizable as something beyond just the villain from Wrath of the Lich King.

To Warcraft players, not the wider public. Most non WoW players genuinely have no idea who Arthas or the Lich King is. A lot of WoW players won’t either. I think you are vastly overestimating how popular the story of this game actually is. Most players don’t even pay attention to the story.

Arthas most certainly does not transcend the Warcraft franchise as you’re suggesting.