Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Sondrelk]

To put it more simply. Arthur is only recognizable because Red Dead Redemption 2 is good. Without the benefit of being cognizant of video game culture, and having actually seen Red Dead Redemption 2, Arthur would be a complete unknown.

In short, Arthur is only iconic in the broad sense that people might have seen the cover for RDR where you can see his face.

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To Warcraft players, not the wider public. Most non WoW players genuinely have no idea who Arthas or the Lich King is. A lot of WoW players won’t either. I think you are vastly overestimating how popular the story of this game actually is. Most players don’t even pay attention to the story.

Arthas most certainly does not transcend the Warcraft franchise as you’re suggesting.

I disagree. Arthas is popular enough that he warrants being labeled an iconic villain.

Honestly, I don't get how you can argue Arthas is not iconic and then turn around and argue Arthur is.
If you want to argue Arthas is only known in video game circles, then I can maybe get behind that, but the same is true for Arthur.

[Santandame]

To put it more simply. Arthur is only recognizable because Red Dead Redemption 2 is good. Without the benefit of being cognizant of video game culture, and having actually seen Red Dead Redemption 2, Arthur would be a complete unknown.

In short, Arthur is only iconic in the broad sense that people might have seen the cover for RDR where you can see his face.

Again, the primary context of the argument has been that no Warcraft characters are iconic outside of the Warcraft sphere. Not Arthur vs. Arthas in terms of being an icon to gaming.

But in that sense, would the same not be said of the Lich King for the WotLK expansion cover? Where else would you see Arthas outside of the Warcraft franchise?

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To put it more simply. Arthur is only recognizable because Red Dead Redemption 2 is good. Without the benefit of being cognizant of video game culture, and having actually seen Red Dead Redemption 2, Arthur would be a complete unknown.

In short, Arthur is only iconic in the broad sense that people might have seen the cover for RDR where you can see his face.

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I disagree. Arthas is popular enough that he warrants being labeled an iconic villain.

Honestly, I don't get how you can argue Arthas is not iconic and then turn around and argue Arthur is.
If you want to argue Arthas is only known in video game circles, then I can maybe get behind that, but the same is true for Arthur.

He warrants being popular enough to be an iconic World of Warcraft villain, yes. You’re still yet to provide me with proof that he’s iconic outside of the Warcraft franchise except from you just telling me that he’s popular. Within the franchise, he absolutely is - I’ve never argued against that. Just to the wider gaming public, which he isn’t. I wouldn’t argue that he’s only known in video games circles. I’d argue that the wider video game public that he isn’t thought of that often (funnily enough, Arthur most definitely is) and that he’s only a big deal in the Warcraft community.

[Al Gorefiend]

I had to Google Arthur Morgan but once I saw who that was I immediately knew it was the Red Dead Redemption guy.

His face is more recognized than the name from seeing the cover of the box all the time. I didnt know he had a name, I thought in RDR2 you customized your character a bit and this was the default face.

Also I agree. WoW is a niche on the grand scale of pop culture. I think a generic night elf will be more recognized than Arthas, and only from brief spillover from fandom crossover when people see it in gaming subs/gaming magazines (kinda like how I know that Warhammer 40k is set in the future)

[Santandame]

Also I agree. WoW is a niche on the grand scale of pop culture. I think a generic night elf will be more recognized than Arthas, and only from brief spillover from fandom crossover when people see it in gaming subs/gaming magazines (kinda like how I know that Warhammer 40k is set in the future)

Basically, yeah. Wow is extremely niche, the ones paying attention to the lore and setting even more so. I also think it’s worth baring in mind that the posters that frequent this thread are even more niche than that so of course they’re going to think Arthas/Lich King is this hugely, popular & iconic character within gaming when the reality is he isn’t.

As someone who’s played WoW since TBC, when I think of WoW my first thought isn’t even a character, it’s Stormwind. Even then, as a character it would be Sylvanas who I would argue has long over taken Arthas as the most recognisable Warcraft character. I’d wager that the majority of WoW players when they think of World of Warcraft and a character comes to mind its Sylvanas.

[COBRAstriker]

Listen, I like Metzen just as much as you, and I agree with the vast majority of what you’re saying here but I think it’s a little far fetched to say some of the characters he created are amongst the most iconic characters in gaming overall. As iconic as the likes of Arthas, Illidan, Thrall and Jaina are within Warcraft; they’re not iconic outside of that sphere.

Mario, Sonic, Master Chief, Crash Bandicoot, Spyro the Dragon, Link, Pikachu, Pac Man, Arthur Morgan, Commander Shepherd, Lara Croft, Solid Snake, Kratos just to name a few they are not. Most gaming fans wouldn’t be able to put a name to those Warcraft characters I mentioned. Some might recognise them.

I don't think you realize just how massive WoW used to be back in the day. We had Ozzy Osbourne, Mr T and van Damme doing WoW commercials. We had TV shows and celebrities talking about WoW, with many of them even playing it. WoW was THE game back then

You're partially right, younger generations might not know who these characters are, but those of us that grew up with Warcraft/Starcraft, Diablo 1/2 and WoW remember how massive these games were. Cultural phenomenons, truly. WoW made MMOs mainstream, Warcraft/Starcraft were not only very solid RTS games, but the custom game modes in AoS and DOTA basically gave birth to the MOBA genre, and Diablo redefined and popularized ARPGs to the point where now every other ARPG is inspired by it

There was this thing called word of mouth that is now sorely missing for Blizzard games. But this wasn't always the case

[Enrif]

how about some data?

https://trends.google.de/trends/expl...organ&hl=en-GB

this is the google search for "Lich King" and "Arthur Morgan" of the last 5 years in the games categories, as Arthur Morgan is a real name it would muddy the waters if we look at all categories.

And we see, Lich King vastly outpaces Arthur, even more so when Wrath Classic was around, but even after that it still get more searches

if we look at youtube searches, we get a similar picture

https://trends.google.de/trends/expl...organ&hl=en-GB


next, lets look at their games: WoW versus RDR2

https://trends.google.de/trends/expl...y1np6&hl=en-GB

google searches first, and yeah, WoW beats RDR2 hands down

and again

https://trends.google.de/trends/expl...y1np6&hl=en-GB

youtube searches show the same picture


claiming a Arthur Morgan is more iconic than the Lich King is far of from reality

[Santandame]

how about some data?

https://trends.google.de/trends/expl...organ&hl=en-GB

this is the google search for "Lich King" and "Arthur Morgan" of the last 5 years in the games categories, as Arthur Morgan is a real name it would muddy the waters if we look at all categories.

And we see, Lich King vastly outpaces Arthur, even more so when Wrath Classic was around, but even after that it still get more searches

if we look at youtube searches, we get a similar picture

https://trends.google.de/trends/expl...organ&hl=en-GB


next, lets look at their games: WoW versus RDR2

https://trends.google.de/trends/expl...y1np6&hl=en-GB

google searches first, and yeah, WoW beats RDR2 hands down

and again

https://trends.google.de/trends/expl...y1np6&hl=en-GB

youtube searches show the same picture


claiming a Arthur Morgan is more iconic than the Lich King is far of from reality

Lmao, google searches? They’re not quite the indictment you think they are. This is just getting silly now. You’ve latched onto one character from a list I provided and you’ve still yet to provide any evidence of Arthas mainstream appeal outside of the World of Warcraft sphere.

Red Dead 2 is the fifth best selling video game of all time. World of Warcraft doesn’t even crack the top 50.

Using your argument regarding google trends though it’s clear we are being shown different data:

https://trends.google.com/trends/exp...m1c34&hl=en-GB


I think you need to step out of your bubble now.

[Khaza-R]

What is this pointless discussion even about? And what does it have to do with TWW or Midnight?

[Santandame]

What is this pointless discussion even about? And what does it have to do with TWW or Midnight?

It doesn’t you’re right. It started off with discussion regarding Warcraft characters not being iconic to the wider gaming community and a couple of posters (one in particular) latched onto one small example out of a fair few and got upset their special niche interest actually isn’t that mainstream.

[Hearthfinder]

It's probably useful to distinguish between younger and older gamers. AFAIK there's a vast chasm between them and how they percieve gaming, because their experiences are so different.

The older crowd (mainly younger Boomers, Gen X and Millennials) grew up with offline, single-player gaming, the rise of the internet, adventure games and RPGs, "real" MMORPGs, etc. Any one of them would probably be able to point out Arthas or Illidan from a poster.

It's hard to put into words just how culturally significant Warcraft was back around the turn of the century. Warcraft 2 and 3 set the gold standards, and WoW was just a phenomenon with adverts everywhere.

The younger crowd, which I guess have begun to outnumber the older crowd a while back (Gen Z and older Gen Alpha) grew up on Minecraft, Spongebob, Fortnite, and Roblox. I have no idea ideas what characters they latch on to. Minecraft Steve, maybe?

To further complicate things, mobile gaming has completely dilluted many of the older franchises and characters. There must be about a dozen "Lich King" rip-offs floating around various bestselling games on the App Store and Google Play right now. It's probably way harder to get to know these characters today.

All that said... blog post tonight?

[micwini]

This is why you don't reply when people ask for a source. They will first discredit it and if you come with something else, they will copium into saying "lol bad metric".
Lich King is far more of an iconic character than a random cowboy.

[Enrif]

Lmao, google searches? They’re not quite the indictment you think they are. This is just getting silly now. You’ve latched onto one character from a list I provided and you’ve still yet to provide any evidence of Arthas mainstream appeal outside of the World of Warcraft sphere.

Red Dead 2 is the fifth best selling video game of all time. World of Warcraft doesn’t even crack the top 50.

Using your argument regarding google trends though it’s clear we are being shown different data:

https://trends.google.com/trends/exp...m1c34&hl=en-GB


I think you need to step out of your bubble now.

are you this ignorant?

https://trends.google.com/trends/exp...m1c34&hl=en-GB

this is part of your search. REAL name people called arthur morgan. It is a real name. You don't dump all search results into one pot. that falsifies the data. you want to be as precise as possible

[milkmustache]

Are we seriously talking about Arthur Morgan in the speculation thread? I know it's a quiet time but... man lol.

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

I like how nonsensical the discussions around the Warcraft IP have become at this point, its' so silly to construct this idea that it cannot ever produce value again because of democratization issue.

Could the democratization issue be the cause of the momentum stoppage and lack of any movement in a positive direction? Absolutely. Does that mean that everything is game over because of the democratization? No. We know that if there's no positive upward trajectory for the Narrative in Midnight or The Last Titan that something will change internally regardless.

There's also the perspective that individual control of the Narrative Team has led to some whacky issues in the past, its a two-edged sword and sure it remains to be seen if the individual control approach is better for a engaging narrative product than the democratization model they're now running.

Again, sure we probably won't get a 3 piece CGI Cinematic structured around a different character but they've got other tools too that are cheaper and they really need to put up appearances going forward since they refuse to help out the Narrative Team in any way shape or form in the game product.

Metzen isn't really relevant, regardless. But, he will be the idol of worship whenever something right happens again.

[Luck4]

Are we seriously talking about Arthur Morgan in the speculation thread? I know it's a quiet time but... man lol.

People are bored, they're arguing for the sake of it, LMAO.

[Enrif]

People are bored, they're arguing for the sake of it, LMAO.

that's not wrong. news cycle is slow and there is no hype for midnight to carry us forward at the moment

[Santandame]

are you this ignorant?

https://trends.google.com/trends/exp...m1c34&hl=en-GB

this is part of your search. REAL name people called arthur morgan. It is a real name. You don't dump all search results into one pot. that falsifies the data. you want to be as precise as possible

Are you or can you not just read the extremely visible “video game character” distinction beneath ?

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Are we seriously talking about Arthur Morgan in the speculation thread? I know it's a quiet time but... man lol.

Well originally it did start off as Warcraft characters not being iconic outside of the Warcraft franchise (they’re not). Enrif has latched onto one example out of a handful and just can’t seem to grasp that his niche interest isn’t as popular as he would like it to be.

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This is why you don't reply when people ask for a source. They will first discredit it and if you come with something else, they will copium into saying "lol bad metric".
Lich King is far more of an iconic character than a random cowboy.

Sources linked have been niche and not relative to what was actually being discussed such as “video games villains that were cooler than the heroes” as well as google trends data which quite clearly conflict with each other with the false assertion that it includes real life people when it’s very clearly labelled as a video game character.

I’m sorry to break it to you, but the Lich King who isn’t even the most well known character in his franchise at this point in time, isn’t more iconic than the main character of the fifth best selling video game of all time. It’s time for you to step out of your bubble. I say this as a fan of Arthas. I’m just not under any delusion that World of Warcraft or its characters are relevant outside of its niche audience (of which I’m a part of) in this day and age. Though I understand the futility of arguing about the popularity of a character on a forum dedicated to the franchise it was born from.

[Limayria]

Warcraft might be more niche now but it's influence over how video games are perceived in culture rivals that of things like Fortnite, remember the South Park episode? The Ozzy and Mr T commercials, the sheer presence wow had in so many different sitcoms like big bang theory for example

Hell even the current video game standard for color coding loot comes from wow (grey-> orange) saying wow isn't iconic is like saying Eva or Gundam are iconic as anime because solo leveling or JJK is more popular lmao

Yeah lots more people watch stuff like solo leveling or play rdr2 because things like wow helped change the cultural paradigm of what was "cool" and helped bring video games into the main stream cultural consciousness

[Santandame]

Warcraft might be more niche now but it's influence over how video games are perceived in culture rivals that of things like Fortnite, remember the South Park episode? The Ozzy and Mr T commercials, the sheer presence wow had in so many different sitcoms like big bang theory for example

Hell even the current video game standard for color coding loot comes from wow (grey-> orange) saying wow isn't iconic is like saying Eva or Gundam are iconic as anime because solo leveling or JJK is more popular lmao

Yeah lots more people watch stuff like solo leveling or play rdr2 because things like wow helped change the cultural paradigm of what was "cool" and helped bring video games into the main stream cultural consciousness

WoW is definitely iconic, don’t get me wrong. I’m arguing that its characters outside of the Warcraft audience aren’t. Your general casual gamers will have no idea who the Lich King or Arthas is.

The game itself definitely isn’t the zeitgeist it was back in 2004 to say 2008 though. But it’s never been up for debate that the game itself isn’t or wasn’t iconic. It’s definitely a lot more niche nowadays though as MMO’s as a whole are. I also think a lot of hardcore WoW fans/people in this thread vastly overestimate how many WoW players actually pay attention to the story & setting. Those that do are definitely the minority.

You’re bound to get a biased response though from a forum dedicated majorly to WoW in a thread regarding all WoW speculation, a place you’ll have the most die hard of fans; so I don’t really consider it to be an accurate representation.

But I wouldn’t argue that the likes of WoW made games like RDR2 cool; especially when RDR was created by the studio that brought us GTA. GTA was certainly a lot more “cool” than WoW ever was.

[Darkarath]

Ah man I hate this kind of shit:

https://www.wowhead.com/es/news/new-...-pieces-378522

The store is getting worse and worse. All that stuff should be obtainable just by playing the game.