Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Hearthfinder]

I really don't think a full old-world revamp like Cata can happen today. They didn't even manage to pull it off in cata with quite a few zones being barely touched (even being worked on at all and expectations about level of detail in the world and quality of quests just grew exponentially since then.

Depends on how you define a world revamp, really.

Doing 40 zones of the size and complexity of the Azure Span is not feasible in one go.

But if all the assets are there, and the biggest technical hurdles have been resolved beforehand, and your goal is to create a canvas for future stories, then it can certainly be done.

[Jaggler]

Depends on how you define a world revamp, really.

Doing 40 zones of the size and complexity of the Azure Span is not feasible in one go.

But if all the assets are there, and the biggest technical hurdles have been resolved beforehand, and your goal is to create a canvas for future stories, then it can certainly be done.

A full revamp requires multiple expansion launches worth of work. i can't see how that can feasibly happen in the forseeable future, especially with how messy Cata turned out in the end with LESS effort put in.

You'd need a whole new team who could work on expansion level content for multiple years/through multiple expansions. in the background while the other teams work on the current WoW

[Xilurm]

A full revamp requires multiple expansion launches worth of work. i can't see how that can feasibly happen in the forseeable future, especially with how messy Cata turned out in the end with LESS effort put in.

You'd need a whole new team who could work on expansion level content for multiple years/through multiple expansions. in the background while the other teams work on the current WoW

IMO Cata shouldn't have touched the old zones at all. The only thing the "destruction" that Deathwing created should've been opening up new zones.

[Pyrophax]

I haven't see Balance of Power achi in remix tab. If I have done it, there is no need for it again?

[Darkarath]

You say interesting, I say boring.

A lot of Midnight’s initial interest came from the possibility of seeing old zones revamped. Going off Maria’s words, we certainly aren’t getting the Draenei Isles and we very likely won’t be getting parts of Lordaeron. We also aren’t getting anything Naga related. K’aresh has been (dreadfully) done.

Where else can we get that fits the story? Avaloren? Would be interesting no doubt but a total waste of an area that could carry an expansion with more build up.

Xal’s home planet? We’ve already done K’aresh and will be doing Voidstorm in Midnight. Do we really want more of the purple, desolate wastelands?

A Zereth? Yeah, no thank you.

I mean, it's fair if you feel that way.

For me it's interesting because we are narrowing down the possibilities quite a bit.

I certainly doubt that Blizzard would make the mistake of going to Avaloren in any way or form during the WSS.

I also doubt very much that they would give us another Zereth shit. Pretty sure that the feedback about that sickness called Shadowlands has been heard loud and clear and they're doing everything that they can to re-integrate that part of the lore in the less damaging way to the rest of Warcraft.

Finally, I think that we can safely discard any Void related zone after having K'aresh and the Voidstorm in a row.

The most important thing is that a revamp of the Plaguelands is looking increasingly likely, which would be my favourite option for 12.1. With the Worldcore probably being 12.2, although it could be pushed to TLT.

Why are we assuming that they're telling the truth? As if they'd outright confirm that we're going to [insert location] or meet [insert race] in an interview that pre-dates the launch of the expansion, which is still in an Alpha testing phase.

It seems very early to drop all speculation on this many subjects because a developer said they wouldn't show up. These are the same people who said they might "look into a third DH spec in the future" weeks before the Midnight reveal.

I feel that Blizzard has been tremendously honest with us since DF.

For instance, Ion stated very clearly in an interview just a week before the final cinematic of 11.1 that: ''We will know where we'll go next at the end of 11.1''. K'aresh was shown at the end of that cinematic and a good part of the playerbase won't believe it. But the answer was right there from the beginning ¡¡

Also, your example is a bad one. Of course they are not going to disclose before the announcement of an expansion one of its main features. But all the hints were there (even if I thought myself that what ended up being Devourer DH would just be a Class Skin).

Blizzard is doing the exact same thing with the world revamp. Of course a world revamp is coming, but they would not say ''Yes ¡¡ It's coming for 14.0 and we will revamp these zones ¡¡'' But they have dropped multiple hints about it, some of them not subtle at all.

There's literally zero chance they genuinely believe that a revamp of Azeroth can occur by revamping two zones every 5 years, based on some creative gut feeling about "when it makes sense for the story we're telling right now".

I used to believe that but IMO there are two things that are very clear:

- A world revamp it's coming (it has already started).
- It won't happen in one expansion.

My guess is that after TLT there is a good chance that there will be an important time-skip until 14.0. 10 years at least but it might be more.

Also, the consequences of beings as powerful and gigantic as the Titans and Sargeras, and even Azeroth herself (I'll bet that she will make an appearance in some way), mixed with the Sword in Silithus, have a good chance of altering the surface of Azeroth forever.

So it is my believe that they will announce a new saga about revamping both Kalimdor and the EK in... probably 3 expansions will be enough. Of course they will mix many zones into one and they will add new underground zones and others to keep things fresh.

The other options are a full revamp in one go, which it's impossible; or revamping the zones ''when it makes sense'', but that would be an absolutely disaster since as you said, having some part of the old world revamped in 2030 and others in 2040 would be a mess in many ways.

[Joshuaj]

No clue, I can usually get a good read on things but the housing system is new in all ways including cadence, so how fast we get exterior customization is actually going to set those kind of expectations for the first time. They were messing around with it in the footage, so it is playable internally already, just not available for testing for us yet. I'm personally hoping it'll be during Alpha still (the next 4 weeks) so we can get plenty of feedback in. I assume the focus is on interior only right now given that'll be what is shipping in 11.2.7, not sure if exterior will be done (or is targeted to be done) by then.

Ion did confirm that the Neighborhoods and Exteriors will be available in 11.2.7 as well, just not the Endeavors.

- - - Updated - - -

I think Zereth Umbra might be 12.1 location and there might be an underground titan "worldcore" zone for 12.2. Or an amani (Ula'tek) zone for 12.1 and Zereth Umbra for 12.2, but I'd be really surprised if the Zereth didn't happen since Blizz seems to love the Shadowlands lore (aside from the Jailer).

Zereth lore is TOP tier cosmology stuff. The only reason we went to Zereth Mortis in SL was due to Zovaal breaking the rules. No cosmic rules are being fundamentally broken or tampered with in Midnight, however. At MAX, we'll maybe hear about Zereth Ordus or get a glimpse of it in TLT, but that's it. Not every cosmic plot needs to include a Zereth, and you're talking to the 1 Progenitor fan on this forum LMAO

[Jaggler]

IMO Cata shouldn't have touched the old zones at all. The only thing the "destruction" that Deathwing created should've been opening up new zones.

Hindsight is 20/20 yeah. The biggest issue i have with the revamped Cata zones are the ones who are basically in some state of permanent disrepair. Like the Ashenvale volcano, submerged Menethil Harbor, the werid.... thing in Westfall etc.

Some stuff like the split in the barrens is okay i guess, but having some iconic zones permanently scarred like that is quite sad.

[Redwyrm]

Hindsight is 20/20 yeah. The biggest issue i have with the revamped Cata zones are the ones who are basically in some state of permanent disrepair. Like the Ashenvale volcano, submerged Menethil Harbor, the werid.... thing in Westfall etc.

Some stuff like the split in the barrens is okay i guess, but having some iconic zones permanently scarred like that is quite sad.

I think Desolace was probably one of the few that turned the zone less tedious and boring. Maybe not A tier but better than what it was.

[huth]

I used to believe that but IMO there are two things that are very clear:

- A world revamp it's coming (it has already started).

No, it hasn't and it isn't. If anything, their actions are a clear indication that they have no plans of doing one again.

The other options are a full revamp in one go, which it's impossible; or revamping the zones ''when it makes sense'', but that would be an absolutely disaster since as you said, having some part of the old world revamped in 2030 and others in 2040 would be a mess in many ways.

And the latter of that is what they said they will do. Which is not going to be an "absolute disaster" but just what we've been looking at for the last 20 years already.

[Darkarath]

No, it hasn't and it isn't. If anything, their actions are a clear indication that they have no plans of doing one again.

Oh? So Eversong Woods and The Ghostlands becoming one huge revamped new zone is not a revamp?

All of Northrend coming in TLT is not a revamp?

You can keep lying to yourself but facts are facts.

And the latter of that is what they said they will do. Which is not going to be an "absolute disaster" but just what we've been looking at for the last 20 years already.

Not really.

They have been saying plenty of things about possible revamps in the future. The only thing that is clear is that it's coming, in whatever form that might be.

And no, this is not the situation that we have been in the last 20 years. The only thing comparable to the revamp of Eversong Woods and The Ghostlands is WoD's Draenor.

I remember plenty of people in this forum saying: "Nah, they would just do what they're saying that they are doing. Quel'thalas will be a little bigger and assets would be HD and that's it".

Yet it was obvious that the only way forward was a Draenor kind of revamp, which is what we end up getting (but better since zones are better these days).

[Sondrelk]

I remember plenty of people in this forum saying: "Nah, they would just do what they're saying that they are doing. Quel'thalas will be a little bigger and assets would be HD and that's it".

Isnt that almost exactly what happened though? The same zone, but with better textures and a general once over on everything?
As I remember, the big debate was whether we would get just Quel'thalas (and maybe Zul'Aman) as an expansion or not. And while Quel'thalas is slightly bigger. It's not so much bigger that it really makes a noticeable difference. Especially when "bigger" was assumed to mean big enough that just Silvermoon would be its own zone and stuff like that.

[Joshuaj]

The Legion remix questline has some interesting tidbits.

You, the current champion from the current present day TWW WoW after having befriended Eternus in the Dragonflight patch questline and after having gone back with him to MoP remix, travel back in time to the start of Legion, swapping places with your past Legion self there (who is now presumably running around in present TWW).




You work with an Infinite drakonoid smith to take a crumbly sword and enchant it to make it look like your Legion artifact weapon, and then he opens a portal through time to replace your real old Legion artifact weapon.






Eternus muses that it might not have been the artifacts which saved Azeroth from the Sword of Sargeras' corruption that was threatening to kill her. Eternus also notes that the Bronze Dragonflight time police have curiously once again not shown up to stop us.





It's nice to hear a new subdued arrange of the climatic music from the final fight of Dawn of the Infinite as the Infinite Bazaar theme.

Between this and the launch trailer, Legion Remix feels less like a straight up alternate timeline, and more like us playing through a unique "What-if" branch of our own timeline. How unique.

Would explain the Legion being here, at least lmao

[Hearthfinder]

A full revamp requires multiple expansion launches worth of work. i can't see how that can feasibly happen in the forseeable future, especially with how messy Cata turned out in the end with LESS effort put in.

You'd need a whole new team who could work on expansion level content for multiple years/through multiple expansions. in the background while the other teams work on the current WoW

No it doesn't. Like I said, it depends on what you're trying to do. Are you meticulously creating a hundred quests with cutscenes and scripting and what-not, or are you simply creating the zones themselves with maybe one story campaign, preparing them for the future?

Considering how small old zones were, it'll be made even easier by the fact that zones can be combined and large parts of them can just be empty stretches of land.

But yeah, I could see them having a separate team for it just like housing, or splitting it up into 2 chunks.

My point is only that the "oh, you know, we like updating 1 or 2 zones every few years when it makes sense for the story" is just a way for them to deflect. Either from the fact that they're simply not revamping Azeroth but need an answer to the question, or because they are and wish to keep it secret.

But there's no way anyone remotely capable at project managememt of this scale wouldn't see the obvious problems of revamping 2 zones every 5 years. It'd be like releasing Housing split up into chunks over a decade. It just wouldn't achieve the desired effect.

[Darkarath]

Isnt that almost exactly what happened though? The same zone, but with better textures and a general once over on everything?
As I remember, the big debate was whether we would get just Quel'thalas (and maybe Zul'Aman) as an expansion or not. And while Quel'thalas is slightly bigger. It's not so much bigger that it really makes a noticeable difference. Especially when "bigger" was assumed to mean big enough that just Silvermoon would be its own zone and stuff like that.

The point was that it would be made from the Scratch, as it has.

It was never going to be much bigger than what it was. That wouldn't make sense.

Many of us discussed here that it was imposible that just Eversong Woods and The Ghostlands would be the zones of Midnight, and obviously Zul'aman, but that was in the cards of everyone.

The difference here is that many defended that QT was going to get little more than an Arathi Highland's treatment, and that was impossible from the very start.

No it doesn't. Like I said, it depends on what you're trying to do. Are you meticulously creating a hundred quests with cutscenes and scripting and what-not, or are you simply creating the zones themselves with maybe one story campaign, preparing them for the future?

I don't think that creating zones works like that. Pretty sure that is a team effort and it would be useless to create a zone for the future to leave it practically empty for 2 or 4 years. Because maybe after those years the questing team has a new amazing idea and some part of the zone will have to be redone or shit like that.

[Vakir]

Oh? So Eversong Woods and The Ghostlands becoming one huge revamped new zone is not a revamp?

All of Northrend coming in TLT is not a revamp?

Correct, they are not a "world revamp."

These are updates of the areas in question, but they aren't a full refresh of Azeroth in terms of quests and continuity as is.

For example, if just as a hypothetical 14.0 was a revamp of a chunk of northern Kalimdor, it would still be in a very different spot from something like Midnight in terms of continuity, being dropped like 3-4 years later, not even getting into how post-TLT would look lorewise. That's not a "revamp" in the sense of what people mean when they want a full time update of Cata 2.0.

Doing something like Midnight to Quel'Thalas actually torpedoes the idea of a full Cataclysm style update because new assets are only half the battle. Honestly, probably less. Now you need to do new quests for whatever hypothetical full update you're making for post-Midnight Quel'Thalas, which is now even bigger, alongside all other zones that would need updating.

The world revamp dream is more unlikely than before, because they're clearly setting up a standard where we deal with localized issues that aren't impacting the entire planet at once as with Cataclysm, and then they decide in the moment whether the location warrants a major ground-up alteration.

Even returning to older areas without a visual revamp is on the table as we've had plenty of scenarios or narrative quests where that has happened and wasn't immediately followed up on.

We're going to see gradual changes to already existing areas but that's always been true.

[SaintBigfoot]

The Legion remix questline has some interesting tidbits.

You, the current champion from the current present day TWW WoW after having befriended Eternus in the Dragonflight patch questline and after having gone back with him to MoP remix, travel back in time to the start of Legion, swapping places with your past Legion self there (who is now presumably running around in present TWW).




You work with an Infinite drakonoid smith to take a crumbly sword and enchant it to make it look like your Legion artifact weapon, and then he opens a portal through time to replace your real old Legion artifact weapon.






Eternus muses that it might not have been the artifacts which saved Azeroth from the Sword of Sargeras' corruption that was threatening to kill her. Eternus also notes that the Bronze Dragonflight time police have curiously once again not shown up to stop us.





It's nice to hear a new subdued arrange of the climatic music from the final fight of Dawn of the Infinite as the Infinite Bazaar theme.

I’m genuinely wondering if they have decided or already planning to do the thing at most most wanted and we’ve been dealing with Murazon ever since the infinite dungeon and he is just playing it cool

[Cheezits]

You say interesting, I say boring.

A lot of Midnight’s initial interest came from the possibility of seeing old zones revamped. Going off Maria’s words, we certainly aren’t getting the Draenei Isles and we very likely won’t be getting parts of Lordaeron. We also aren’t getting anything Naga related. K’aresh has been (dreadfully) done.

Where else can we get that fits the story? Avaloren? Would be interesting no doubt but a total waste of an area that could carry an expansion with more build up.

Xal’s home planet? We’ve already done K’aresh and will be doing Voidstorm in Midnight. Do we really want more of the purple, desolate wastelands?

A Zereth? Yeah, no thank you.

I agree with this. The more that Maria deconfirms (I am wondering why they are letting her be so candid about it, unless it's lies/trickery) the less interested in I am in the patches. If half of launch is OC portal pocket worlds (Harandar, Voidstorm) and the rest isn't Azuremyst, Lordaeron etc, why should I care about future areas in Midnight? Another magically appearing island is not interesting to me. I am not interested in Avaloren/Arathi and very little else is built up for the future save for Northrend's confirmation in TLT. And if that Whiteboard leak is real then it may as well not be Northrend due to how much it has changed/melted.

I will admit Lordaeron is not a hard deconfirm and there are some hints at launch about it, and they CAN do a Draenei patch if it isn't Azuremyst. And of course it can be something like Tel Abim or Plunder Isle but... eh.

[Hitei]

Another magically appearing island is not interesting to me. .

But the completely irrelevant minor island with some deer and furbolgs is?

[Cheezits]

But the completely irrelevant minor island with some deer and furbolgs is?

I'm not sure which pre-expansion landmass this is referring to (Northrend? Broken Isles?) but at this point in time I am mostly interested in content for Vanilla/TBC Eastern Kingdoms and Kalimdor races. Except Nelves, we're good there, forever.

[Darkarath]

Correct, they are not a "world revamp."

Fair to have that opinion but for me it's just the opposite.

These zones (QT and Northrend) are being revamped. You can put it whatever way you like but it is the first time that an old zone is being truly revamped and not getting a coat of new paint like most of Cataclysm was.

A world revamp at once is just not possible. But a saga about revamping the old world? Perfectly doable. In such way the story will have continuity and it won't be a mess.

After whatever happens in TLT it will be the perfect opportunity to start such a project. Calm down things a bit after these ridiculous cosmic forces, seed the old world with new lore, continue to build Avaloren, the Arathi and other possible continents so that they don't feel like a new island popping out of thin air, but a place that we actually want to discover.

It's not lost to me that revamping old zones for years could be a risky move by Blizzard, but they seem pretty happy with how the revamp of QT and Northrend has been received, and if they make new zones like Harandar along the revamps, I think that it could be a neat idea.

Time will tell.