Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Super Dickmann]

https://amalur.fandom.com/wiki/Hironar

What an absolute pathetic guy — everything he writes is just CTRL + C, CTRL + V. Just copy, borrow, or steal, and rework it.

Truly bringing back Metzen was Blizzard's wisest move for story reception. Not because of the general upgrade to dialogue and writing in TWW, though there is, or because of the improvement to terrible moralizing slop like Arathi, as there isn't, but solely to get these kind of posts.

Quite obviously a writer will reuse ideas and concepts they introduced and liked from one story to another, where would you have your old Bioware without their ancient progenitor races and four plot coupons? Who is Miyazaki without his dwindling European fantasy kingdom struggling in vain against entropy? Is Warcraft 3 itself not just Starcraft 1, from core races to exact beats of the plot, down to direct parallel characters in Sylvanas and Kerrigan? Hell, the dreadlords, one of the mainstays of the setting, are only where they are and named so because Metzen failed to get his vampire game off the ground.

Come on, people, perspective. It's not like cave night elves are a concept so staggering in its execution that self-plagiarism is the grounds on which to attack them, especially when we're not even one expansion removed from a patch wholly about fucking night elves and indeed, we're going to have more of them in 12.0.

[Xilurm]

I hope they know never to do something as stupid as Teldrassil again because how can they explain a Night Elf character talking to Sylvanas like she's an old friend? It's so dumb.

Also Arator... can they please stop creating such naive characters? Even though he's a half elf he should be what, 40 years by now? Like c'mon.

[THEORACLE64]

Big lore bomb in the random books you find about the Haranir this build.

Seems to suggest they were once the Shadowtooth Clan Trolls, the original Trolls who desecended from Night Elves - Would very highly explain why they have access to the Emerald Nightmare and the 2nd raid being located in there.

Once that hint is given, and when you look at their half Troll/Half Elvish appearance, the penny suddenly drops.

- All the main Silvermoon characters are added.
- Everyone predicted this one, Isle of Quel'Danas now has its separate zone and been moved closer in-land
- Harandar is alot different than you expect. Being the epicentre of the root of each World Tree, whatever suffering a World Tree had in the story is still occuring - Teldrassil roots still on fire, which means Vordrassil root must have an Old God problem still, Bel'ameth's roots could explain the Djarri models seen.

You’re joking… right? It was obvious from day one they were some form of the missing link between Trolls and Night Elves.

[COBRAstriker]

Dragonflight was atrocious from a story pov. I'm sorry, but I'm not really a fan of inserting modern, progressive messaging into a generic fantasy game about.. wars. And that's being mild with the criticism

Say what you want about Shadowlands, and by no means is there a shortage of things to say, but I feel like people back then still cared, to some degree? Now granted it was mostly just to see how much worse they can soil the bed, but ever since DF I feel like a general apathy has taken hold. At least SL had the Afterlives trailers and I think that Denathrius was a slam dunk. Now? People just don't care anymore. And who could blame them? It's all lame and boring. Khadgar in a pink floating wheelchair and all this nonsense.. where's the exciting stuff? Where's the energy?

I don't really buy the idea that the blame falls on whoever the face of WoW's writing happens to be, either Danuser, Afrasiabi or Metzen. WoW has a writing problem in general, from quest writers to narrative designers to even those that make the cinematics. It's all so lame and boring, and the constant modern messaging just makes everything so much worse

I mean, just look at this. Seriously, it's pathetic. This is with Metzen being back. And then people wonder why nobody cares about the stories anymore or why do newer cinematics barely get any views



This franchise was defined by the rule of cool, cool characters, cool villains, and generic fantasy stories. I don't know why they had to piss all of that away, which had a proven track record of working, for lameness and garbage like this

[Lahis]

Also Arator... can they please stop creating such naive characters? Even though he's a half elf he should be what, 40 years by now? Like c'mon.

We are in late 42 or early 43 right now. Sons of Lothar left to Draenor in year 8, and Arator was an infant then, so he would be somewhere around 35 now.

[COBRAstriker]

I hope they know never to do something as stupid as Teldrassil again because how can they explain a Night Elf character talking to Sylvanas like she's an old friend? It's so dumb.

Also Arator... can they please stop creating such naive characters? Even though he's a half elf he should be what, 40 years by now? Like c'mon.

I may get the time periods wrong here,, but isn't Arator older now than Turalyon was during the Second War? Pathetic. It's so stupid to see all these naive idealists in a setting that's supposed to be about the survival of the fittest and endless conflict

[allegrian]

Yesterday, we had a conversation about the Haranir, and whose idea they were. And just now, I saw on Groxi’s post that a concept with a similar name(Hironar) appeared in a game Danuser had worked on…

Groxi Post: https://x.com/that_kind_oforc/status...74110438035630

https://amalur.fandom.com/wiki/Hironar

What an absolute pathetic guy — everything he writes is just CTRL + C, CTRL + V. Just copy, borrow, or steal, and rework it.

It was pretty obvious they were another Danuser baby, he loves copy pasting wow races, replacing their role and making them more important in lore somehow. We saw that with the first ones copying the titans, Arathi replacing actual humans, and earthen (even if they already "existed") copying and replacing the 3 dwarven clans.

Metzen should just have deleted the Haranir, it almost looked like he did given their super small role in TWW.

We'll be carrying Danuser baggage for a looong time.

[Xilurm]

WoW never had gender inequality to begin with so why do they feel the need to mention that in the parentheses? This is real life problems bleeding into WoW which never had them.

[Berkilak]

I agree! I'm glad he's back, although he had his share of mistakes in the past; nothing comes close to the IP attempt of murder that happened in Shadowlands, and the incredibly boring lore of Dragonflight.

Say what you will about Metzen, but even at its worst, it still felt like WarCraft. When I’m playing WoW, I’ll take a bad WarCraft story over a totally dissonant great story.

[Hitei]

WoW never had gender inequality to begin with so why do they feel the need to mention that in the parentheses? This is real life problems bleeding into WoW which never had them.

This has nothing to do with inequality, it is about the term not being gender-specific. But I'm sure you knew that.

[COBRAstriker]

It was pretty obvious they were another Danuser baby, he loves copy pasting wow races, replacing their role and making them more important in lore somehow. We saw that with the first ones copying the titans, Arathi replacing actual humans, and earthen (even if they already "existed") copying and replacing the 3 dwarven clans.

Metzen should just have deleted the Haranir, it almost looked like he did given their super small role in TWW.

We'll be carrying Danuser baggage for a looong time.

It could also be that Metzen does not have that kind of authority. I, too, perhaps foolishly, thought that with an executive role, he has the ability to override any decision and basically have the last word on things. But, since he also revealed that the entire process is 'democratized' now, it might also mean that he can be overriden by the rest. He could say X, the rest could say Y, and Y ends up being in the game instead

- - - Updated - - -

This has nothing to do with inequality, it is about the term not being gender-specific. But I'm sure you knew that.

The simple fact that garbage like that ends up being in the game is a big issue. But I'm sure you knew that as well

[Lahis]

This has nothing to do with inequality, it is about the term not being gender-specific. But I'm sure you knew that.

Yeah, but there is no need to underline it like that in the game. Nobody would have put a second thought into the useage of normal work related word, but they just had to point it out in a very Current Year Social Issues style manner.

[COBRAstriker]

WoW never had gender inequality to begin with so why do they feel the need to mention that in the parentheses? This is real life problems bleeding into WoW which never had them.

It's to emphasize that the term is gender neutral, which it is, everyone knew it, but they just has to remind you since forewoman is not a thing, which probably made someone mad

[Xilurm]

This has nothing to do with inequality, it is about the term not being gender-specific. But I'm sure you knew that.

That's what I'm saying. It has never been an issue, ever. It's like complaining that a female ruler is called Queen instead of King. Or why would a woman be called sorceress instead of sorcerer. Or why a warlock doesn't have gendered terms.

But I'm sure you knew that.

You don't have to be so confrontational. I ain't one of them twitter chuds that see a woman in a game and rage instantly. Speaking of, you'd probably be surprised that one of my biggest annoyances with this whole thing is how they added another dent to Night Elf lore by hammering it down our throats that "traditions have to change" in the heritage armor quest by giving a male NE tattoos and letting him become a sentinel. That was stupid. Imagine saying the Amazons in myth had an equal society with men, that's what it's like. It was one of the unique aspects of NE culture and they removed it. Not sure why they had to use NE to do that, but it's probably cause they hate the race so much.

PS: They still haven't given the player character the option to choose a gender even though they can't stop making an emphasis about it in other places of the game.

[Jaggler]

That's what I'm saying. It has never been an issue, ever. It's like complaining that a female ruler is called Queen instead of King. Or why would a woman be called sorceress instead of sorcerer. Or why a warlock doesn't have gendered terms.

I always just read that as a bunch of machine-robot-slave people being overly precise in their wording, rather than some kind of gender equality thing.

[Hitei]

That's what I'm saying. It has never been an issue, ever. It's like complaining that a female ruler is called Queen instead of King. Or why would a woman be called sorceress instead of sorcerer.

That is exactly the point. It is an issue in that you have gendered terms.

When you say that the council is "made up of the most powerful Sorcerers" or that the goblins are "ruled by a collection of Trade Princes". Those are inherently gendered terms. You can make an unqualified assumption that sorceress are also allowed, or that trade princesses also exist, but that isn't what those statements actually say. So if you want to resolve that unknown, you either specify that it's foremen and forewomen (white despite Cobra's rather ignorant weigh-in, is very much a thing) or that "foreman" is a title that is just applied to everyone.

You are trying to make it about inequality when it is just elaborating that they have a single title for the position where that apparent inherent gender of "man" is not literal.

[Xilurm]

That is exactly the point. It is an issue in that you have gendered terms.

But gendered terms are cool. In the Witcher 4 for example, Ciri is called a Witcheress by one of the characters, and a lot of people liked that. The people that hate the fact that Ciri is the protagonist didn't like it though which makes it a bit confusing as to what they actually want.

Case in point, I want my female NE Priest to actually be called a Priestess, just like any other female NPC Priestess in game. There's even a title from Legion "High Priest", and the fact that it's not called "High Priestess" is the reason I'm refusing to use it. Otherwise that would've been my main title.

[Limayria]

That's what I'm saying. It has never been an issue, ever. It's like complaining that a female ruler is called Queen instead of King. Or why would a woman be called sorceress instead of sorcerer. Or why a warlock doesn't have gendered terms.



You don't have to be so confrontational. I ain't one of them twitter chuds that see a woman in a game and rage instantly. Speaking of, you'd probably be surprised that one of my biggest annoyances with this whole thing is how they added another dent to Night Elf lore by hammering it down our throats that "traditions have to change" in the heritage armor quest by giving a male NE tattoos and letting him become a sentinel. That was stupid. Imagine saying the Amazons in myth had an equal society with men, that's what it's like. It was one of the unique aspects of NE culture and they removed it. Not sure why they had to use NE to do that, but it's probably cause they hate the race so much.

PS: They still haven't given the player character the option to choose a gender even though they can't stop making an emphasis about it in other places of the game.

one of the biggest theme's of warcraft has been about societies challenging their traditions and moving into an uncertain future, that's what warcraft 3 was about with the nelves interacting with outsiders and leaving their long vigil in the dream; or with jania and her humans in theramore putting aside past hatreds to work with the orcs. or with thralls whole trying to build a new horde with a new pathos. even warcraft 1 was incited because orcs dogmatically followed their tradition to the doom of their cultural and their world as well as the people they shared it with. There's a lot of interesting parallels I see between the OG orc story and the fremen in Dune; with both being cultures in which bad actors manipulated this warrior culture into a multi planetary genocide via religion

Say what you will about Metzen, but even at its worst, it still felt like WarCraft. When I’m playing WoW, I’ll take a bad WarCraft story over a totally dissonant great story.

i thought the current circlejerk was that metzen lost his touch because of the arathi quest or whatever?

That is exactly the point. It is an issue in that you have gendered terms.

When you say that the council is "made up of the most powerful Sorcerers" or that the goblins are "ruled by a collection of Trade Princes". Those are inherently gendered terms. You can make an unqualified assumption that sorceress are also allowed, or that trade princesses also exist, but that isn't what those statements actually say. So if you want to resolve that unknown, you either specify that it's foremen and forewomen (white despite Cobra's rather ignorant weigh-in, is very much a thing) or that "foreman" is a title that is just applied to everyone.

You are trying to make it about inequality when it is just elaborating that they have a single title for the position where that apparent inherent gender of "man" is not literal.

can't believe we're having ASoIF "ser" title discourse in 2025 in wow lmao

[COBRAstriker]

You don't have to be so confrontational. I ain't one of them twitter chuds that see a woman in a game and rage instantly. Speaking of, you'd probably be surprised that one of my biggest annoyances with this whole thing is how they added another dent to Night Elf lore by hammering it down our throats that "traditions have to change" in the heritage armor quest by giving a male NE tattoos and letting him become a sentinel. That was stupid.

Yeah, that one was especially bad. It's been a recurring theme where tradition or pride in one's heritage are portrayed as something inherently bad. I mean, just look at the Arathi questline, where Danath pretty much goes against everything he's about, even compared to his BfA self

I wouldn't be surprised if Arator ends up being the progressive, rebellious younger child that goes against his problematic, stubborn, old father, or helps him see 'reason', which, based from what I've seen from Alpha, seems to be the case. Keep in mind that he's a 30 something year old man himself, son of famous war veterans at that too

[Reive]

Dragonflight was atrocious from a story pov. I'm sorry, but I'm not really a fan of inserting modern, progressive messaging into a generic fantasy game about.. wars. And that's being mild with the criticism

Say what you want about Shadowlands, and by no means is there a shortage of things to say, but I feel like people back then still cared, to some degree? Now granted it was mostly just to see how much worse they can soil the bed, but ever since DF I feel like a general apathy has taken hold. At least SL had the Afterlives trailers and I think that Denathrius was a slam dunk. Now? People just don't care anymore. And who could blame them? It's all lame and boring. Khadgar in a pink floating wheelchair and all this nonsense.. where's the exciting stuff? Where's the energy?

I don't really buy the idea that the blame falls on whoever the face of WoW's writing happens to be, either Danuser, Afrasiabi or Metzen. WoW has a writing problem in general, from quest writers to narrative designers to even those that make the cinematics. It's all so lame and boring, and the constant modern messaging just makes everything so much worse

I mean, just look at this. Seriously, it's pathetic. This is with Metzen being back. And then people wonder why nobody cares about the stories anymore or why do newer cinematics barely get any views



This franchise was defined by the rule of cool, cool characters, cool villains, and generic fantasy stories. I don't know why they had to piss all of that away, which had a proven track record of working, for lameness and garbage like this

most have given up. they either play other games or skip everything story related.

blizzard thinks the writing is great so things will never change. story wise, from what i've seen so far, midnight is a mix of shadowlands tier retcons and dragonflight's lameness