Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[vindicator782]

You said : "Do the anti-flying people realise they don't have to fly?", and I gave you the answer : we DO have to fly because some places are simply inaccessible without it.

If you want to conveniently remove DF from the equation, well I haven't started TWW yet, but there is plenty of examples in other expansions :

Ogrilla in TBC
The two ships in Icecrown and the majority of Storm Peaks in WOTLK
A large portion of Deepholm in Cata
Surprisingly nothing in MOP, even tho it came with flying
Obviously I think nothing for WoD, Legion, BFA and SL.

So basically like 3 or 4 locations in 20 years if you're obstinantly choosing not to engage with a core part of the game that has existed for the vast majority of it

[Garrac]

I see there's stuff from the Housing Hub missing in the PTR, like the zandalari scroll. But Blizz needs to improve how to track these things...

[vindicator782]

Good for you. Some people want to play a video game though, not a chore simulator.

Ironic post because not having flying makes most things more annoying to do

[Xilurm]

Ironic post because not having flying makes most things more annoying to do

To you. Some people find it that it makes things more meaningful. If all I have to do is fly up, fly down, hand in quest, that's lame as hell.

[Marlamin]

@Marlamin Is there a way to get the Alliance Door Mat on PTR?

Doubt it, that bad boy doesn't even have a proper name yet.

[vindicator782]

To you. Some people find it that it makes things more meaningful. If all I have to do is fly up, fly down, hand in quest, that's lame as hell.

Ironically skyriding is more engaging that ground movement

[Hitei]

I'm willing to have an open, honest discussion with anyone really, but I refuse to engage with those whose entire argument basically boils down to "WoW/Warcraft was always like this, you're wrong". Not only is that not true, but frankly it's insulting, because that implies that me or others who echo criticism similar to mine either here, under official cinematics, WoW forums or reddit are somehow insane, and there hasn't been a noticeable shift in how WoW tells its stories, what kind of stories or how it presents its characters. Simply put, I refuse to be gaslit

You are not insane, just incorrect.

You made an unsubstantiated claim out of ignorance, that these themes of [naive, progressive idealism and working together > tradition and warrior ways], or [younger, morally righteous woman supplants more fight-minded male character] happening are new developments, when there are countless examples going all the way back to WC3. Repeating "gaslighting" over and over doesn't change that Cata had Moira go from mind-controlled princess to be rescued to cunning and capable regent queen of the dwarves while Magni was turned to a statue in the basement, or that Jaina was a naive, idealistic young woman who wanted everyone to work together and treat each other nicely and won against her bigoted, traditionalist warrior father. It doesn't make Jaina showing Varian the error of his ways in Wrath, or Liadrin the morally righteous, penitent paladin taking center stage as Kael is villain-batted and killed off in BC, or gruff Edwin Vancleef being replaced by more righteous Vanessa in Cata, or Alexstrasza and Ysera being the uncontested good ones while Neltharion, Maylgos and to mixed extent Nozdormu are all consigned to villainy between WC2 and Wrath--all just go away.

There is nothing new here. The very first "book" for Warcraft was written by Metzen 25 years ago and it is about Tirion Fording learning from Eitrigg that bigotry and racism are bad, and that races who look different from you are still people, and have feelings and grief, and families; and how strength is speaking out against wrong-doing from authorities and established societal views, and that Tirion was wrong for judging all orcs and also is a privileged, wealthy guy (from a privileged race of people) who doesn't understand what it is like to be oppressed or enslaved.

Do you get it?

Warcraft has been lecturing people about, in your words "modern, American socio-political issues" for 25 years. I'm sorry that you did not pay enough attention, or care about the actual lore and story happening enough to see that before someone pointed out this """trend""". I am sorry that it is embarrassing to parade yourself around as "a true fan" and someone who "cares about the story" and then have it proven that, actually, there are massive, numerous gaps in your understanding of the story being told or characters in it; but it's not new. It isn't something that showed up in BfA as you so like to claim. You are not insane, you just didn't actually read, in depth, what you were playing.


You bought a nice, nondescript black backpack and wore it for 20 years only to have someone point at it recently (and you realize for the first time) that the pull tabs for the zippers and the front of the interior pocket all have Hello Kitty logos on them. And your, not completely unreasonable, embarrassed response is "this is a prank, someone must have messed with my backpack, I've been wearing this for 20 years, I'd have seen that. It was just a cool plain black backpack before". And when people say "no, that's just a regular Hello Kitty backpack, look it's right here in this catalog", you think it's gaslighting--it has to have been changed, and it absolutely needs to be changed back, this is NOT OKAY they are ruining your backpack--but the reality is that you just didn't pay attention to the things that were right there and visible all along.

[Zardas]

So basically like 3 or 4 locations in 20 years if you're obstinantly choosing not to engage with a core part of the game that has existed for the vast majority of it

I gave you only a couple of example to showcase my point. If you want to delve deeper, there is three zones that you pretty much can't play beyond the first quests without flying (Icecrown, Storm Peaks, Deepholm), and 20 instances (without counting TWW that I haven't played yet) that you can't even access (Bastion of twilight, Return to Karazhan, Vortex Pinacle, Throne of the four winds, Firelands, Utgarde Keep, Violet Hold, The Oculus, Halls of Lightning, Forge of Souls, Pit of Saron, Halls of Reflection, Vault of Archavon, The Nexus, Eye of Eternity, Halls of Stone, Ulduar, Mogu'shan vaults, Algeth'ar Academy, Vault of the incarnates, Dawn of the infinite).

And 20 years is a bit disingenious since, obviously, vanilla, Wod, Legion, BFA and SL won't have these issues. If you're removing them, it's 3 zones and 20 instances inaccessible in 9 years. Seems like a bit more, does it not ?

[Xilurm]

Ironically skyriding is more engaging that ground movement

Didn't know you had to avoid mobs while flying or go around certain paths so you can get over terrain.

[vindicator782]

Didn't know you had to avoid mobs while flying or go around certain paths so you can get over terrain.

"Sometimes I press A or D as well as W so it's more engaging"

- - - Updated - - -

I gave you only a couple of example to showcase my point. If you want to delve deeper, there is three zones that you pretty much can't play beyond the first quests without flying (Icecrown, Storm Peaks, Deepholm), and 20 instances (without counting TWW that I haven't played yet) that you can't even access (Bastion of twilight, Return to Karazhan, Vortex Pinacle, Throne of the four winds, Firelands, Utgarde Keep, Violet Hold, The Oculus, Halls of Lightning, Forge of Souls, Pit of Saron, Halls of Reflection, Vault of Archavon, The Nexus, Eye of Eternity, Halls of Stone, Ulduar, Mogu'shan vaults, Algeth'ar Academy, Vault of the incarnates, Dawn of the infinite).

And 20 years is a bit disingenious since, obviously, vanilla, Wod, Legion, BFA and SL won't have these issues. If you're removing them, it's 3 zones and 20 instances inaccessible in 9 years. Seems like a bit more, does it not ?

Not when you're like me and think flying is a core part of WoW and ever trying to take it out has been a shit idea

[Xilurm]

"Sometimes I press A or D as well as W so it's more engaging"

Are you trolling?


"Sometimes I press 1 or 2 as well as 3 so it's more engaging" is skyriding.

[rainhard]

Definitely the best option. Put all the outdoor challenges and treasures there, and leave regular as easy mode, and for those that just want to raidlog and fly directly to the dungeon entrances.

But of course, by adding extra player power behind that difficulty, it makes it so players who only care to raidlog and not about immersion can complain they "have to" fly.

- - - Updated - - -

For me the ideal would be no flying until max level, at which point HC World Tier and Flying would be unlocked.

Would that mean that normal mode would have less rares and treasures?

[Zardas]

"Sometimes I press A or D as well as W so it's more engaging"

You just described flying.

Not when you're like me and think flying is a core part of WoW and ever trying to take it out has been a shit idea

When did I say anything about wanting to take it out ?

[Hugnomo]

You are not insane, just incorrect.
[...]

Clapping for this entire response. Very well put.

[vindicator782]

Are you trolling?


"Sometimes I press 1 or 2 as well as 3 so it's more engaging" is skyriding.

I mean if you're bad at skyriding I guess, it's a fun little minigame to essentially give yourself infinite vigor

[allegrian]

For flying there is also the massive loss in open world challenges. Just completely basic ones like needing to actually scale the mountain in Stormheim to get to the dragons, rather than flying straight up. Or the Oculeth teleportation nexus quest and associated secrets. Not to mention the large amount of movement challenges that are impossible to design with flying in mind.

Sure, you could still make them and then say that everyone who cares for the challenge should ignore flying, but why would that in any way be a reasonable view on game design?

It's not reasonable and any game developer who cares abiut gameplay knows that. Hell, even Ion knows that, but the bigger audience is either too casual or only cares about endgame.

[Xilurm]

I mean if you're bad at skyriding I guess, it's a fun little minigame to essentially give yourself infinite vigor

Ok so you are trolling then.

Btw they're removing vigor in Midnight so there's that.

[vindicator782]

Ok so you are trolling then.

Btw they're removing vigor in Midnight so there's that.

Which is a bad change

It is easy to call someone a troll rather than deal with the fact you have no real argument - you can still use a ground mount if you prefer that - why would it be fair to restrict players who do enjoy flying?

[Limayria]

Which is a bad change

It is easy to call someone a troll rather than deal with the fact you have no real argument - you can still use a ground mount if you prefer that - why would it be fair to restrict players who do enjoy flying?

Because allowing flying makes it impossible to make engaging zones like they did in legion or even just challenging open world content because you can just bunny hop around challenges unless they are explicitly made required

[vindicator782]

Because allowing flying makes it impossible to make engaging zones like they did in legion or even just challenging open world content because you can just bunny hop around challenges unless they are explicitly made required

Boy oh boy I love the maw such a fun zone