Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[COBRAstriker]

No more or less on the nose than having the guy unearth forbidden artifacts then hide in his underground bunker to declare war upon all the lesser races whom dare stop his superior species from taking their vital space, with a final FLR wing literally called Downfall in case anyone thought they were being too subtle.

Aside from literally one cinematic in WoD, the writing around Garrosh has always been shit tier and the writers have obviously never liked him except as a free source of conflict. I'm not going to lose sleep over them taking yet another dump on the character, even if the writing of the quest IS pretty egregiously bad and I hope it gets removed.

I'm only saying that it's petty and pathetic to do that to a fictional character who died over a decade ago, while Sylvanas, who is guilty of even more heinous crimes, is allowed to still roam around

Like another poster mentioned, you wouldn't catch these characters talking about Sylvanas in the same way. The one time someone insulted her, the line got censored. It's the double standard that people won't accept. You can boot up WC3 and I guarantee you that the line where Sylvanas calls Arthas a SOB is still there, and it makes sense and shouldn't be removed. But Blizzard is not even handed with their morality, which changes from one gender to the other

[AOL Instant Messenger]

I would also note that one of the most commonly overlooked elements of diversity is, conveniently, diversity of thought.

Very true. Tolerance can entail having to work around uncomfortable differences in cultural norms, so trying to make "tolerance good" a driving part of your story, you have to portray that if you want to portray this kind of thing honestly. While you don't have to pretend tolerance should be universally extended to every possible cultural norm — some simply should be discarded — you're still going to have to accept some differences between people will be substantive instead of cosmetic.

I'll also add as an addendum re: portraying this kind of thing accurately, you'll also have to do the same with reform. Modern WoW has a habit of fasttracking social reform, Stormwind being an understated but noteworthy example with the Golden Prince Andy already getting the ball rolling on solving class conflict offscreen and later having the residue swept up by Duh Champions, with someone who (a.) already ordered the death of two innocent people, (b.) probably was indirectly complicit in a few more, (c.) was immersed in the revolutionary ideology from youth and (d.) saw her dad's head cut off in front of her as a young teenager happily conceding to peaceful reform. As soon as the vanguard of Progress™ marches, chunks convert to their side with rehabilitation and compliance the likes of which the titans and Light could only dream of with only the exception of one-note cartoon villains.

[Darkarath]

The Arcantina is one giant humiliation ritual area. It's a neutral sanctuary tavern in between dimensions where every character that shows up just talks about how tired they are and how much they don't like fighting anymore. The one vulpera leader that loves fighting, Nisha, is there and she has dialogue talking about how she wants lay down her arms now and looks forward to peaceful day. Every character is being homogenized into the exact same one: tired of fighting, just wants to retire and have a picnic with everyone and not think about anything.

I mean, this makes perfect sense.

It's impossible that most characters are not tired of fighting. Azeroth had world ending threats continuously for the last 30 years. To be fair they should all be completely traumatized and crazy.

Having them tired of war and conflict is perfectly fine and understandable. There is a reason why faction conflict is not a thing anymore. We have been mostly collaborating against these threats for decades now.

While it's natural that some hate and distrust remains, having the characters continuously hating each other and discussing past afronts would be pointless and not even real because they know that they have to collaborate most of the time, whether they like it or not.

This doesn't mean that faction conflict cannot become a thing again (and it should come again at some point), but while Cosmic beings are focused in killing us, it's just natural that Horde and Alliance become closer and closer allies.

[GeometryWizard]

I'm only saying that it's petty and pathetic to do that to a fictional character who died over a decade ago, while Sylvanas, who is guilty of even more heinous crimes, is allowed to still roam around

It makes much more sense when you realize it's not about Garrosh the character, it's wish fulfillment tearing down of anything associated with Afrasiabi. They associate him with everything quintessentially Warcraft and have been on a crusade to subvert and tear all of it down since he got the boot. It's confusing to the millions of players who are watching this giant multibillion dollar IP devolve into a spiteful temper tantrum of "girls rule boys drool" for the past 5 years, not realizing it's because of office politics. He deserved to get fired but these writers are immature children that think people are obligated to pay them to support their tantrums

[COBRAstriker]

But the pillow-fort mentality of hyper-sanitized narrative is not only a turnoff for fans of the franchise's more gritty past, it's also counterproductive and self-defeating. Garrosh calling Sylvanas a bitch isn't an endorsement of misogynist rhetoric. He's an asshole. Assholes say shitty things that make you not like them. Similarly with the greenskin slur - you're supposed to find that startling and objectionable. These characters are being racists, for various reasons; and that doesn't mean that is a good thing.

It really drives me up the wall that somehow we have come to a point where people have apparently lost the ability to discern what is a character's view and what is a writer's view; for whatever reason, there's many theories as to why. What are people saying, that any time you write a character that's a murderer you are endorsing murder? Or downplaying the severity of murder? Or implicitly condoning murder? Because that's exactly the kind of arguments I hear from people, except substituting other words for "murder".

And don't get me wrong, I'm absolutely for holding authors accountable, and absolutely for demanding critical engagement in fiction. But critical doesn't mean sanitized. If you don't trust your audience to be able to handle a problematic term or topic, it means you don't trust yourself as a writer to convey that term or topic in a critically appropriate way. Or, by extension, that a company doesn't trust their writers to do so. Why? Because they know the people ultimately responsible for oversight and management aren't up to the task. So they just do heavy-handed white-out crusading to cleanse anything with potential for offense that they aren't functionally adult enough to properly evaluate

Very well said

[GeometryWizard]

I mean, this makes perfect sense.

It's impossible that most characters are not tired of fighting. Azeroth had world ending threats continuously for the last 30 years. To be fair they should all be completely traumatized and crazy.

Having them tired of war and conflict is perfectly fine and understandable. There is a reason why faction conflict is not a thing anymore. We have been mostly collaborating against these threats for decades now.

While it's natural that some hate and distrust remains, having the characters continuously hating each other and discussing past afronts would be pointless and not even real because they know that they have to collaborate most of the time, whether they like it or not.

This doesn't mean that faction conflict cannot become a thing again (and it should come again at some point), but while Cosmic beings are focused in killing us, it's just natural that Horde and Alliance become closer and closer allies.

Then they should just end the game if they want to write the story where everyone is exhausted and tired of fighting and the story is written to support that as being the right attitude to have for every character. If they don't have any more stories to tell then they should close the book and say The End. But the game is going to keep going and most of the gameplay is killing things. Instead of writing a story, characters and vibe that acknowledge that reality, they're enforcing this cozycore feelgood Tumblr vibe that totally clashes with the gameplay itself. They might as well just declare that housing is the true continuation of the story and all new zones, dungeons and raids are non-canon

[COBRAstriker]

It makes much more sense when you realize it's not about Garrosh the character, it's wish fulfillment tearing down of anything associated with Afrasiabi. They associate him with everything quintessentially Warcraft and have been on a crusade to subvert and tear all of it down since he got the boot. It's confusing to the millions of players who are watching this giant multibillion dollar IP devolve into a spiteful temper tantrum of "girls rule boys drool" for the past 5 years, not realizing it's because of office politics. He deserved to get fired but these writers are immature children that think people are obligated to pay them to support their tantrums

Yeah, it does come off that way. Someone over there has deep resentment towards their predecessors work, which is probably also fueled by the current political climate. But it's still petty as fuck. He's been dead for over a decade and literally erased from the game in SL. Like... move on lol, you're supposed to write new and better stories, no?

- - - Updated - - -

I mean, this makes perfect sense.

It's impossible that most characters are not tired of fighting. Azeroth had world ending threats continuously for the last 30 years. To be fair they should all be completely traumatized and crazy.

Having them tired of war and conflict is perfectly fine and understandable. There is a reason why faction conflict is not a thing anymore. We have been mostly collaborating against these threats for decades now.

While it's natural that some hate and distrust remains, having the characters continuously hating each other and discussing past afronts would be pointless and not even real because they know that they have to collaborate most of the time, whether they like it or not.

This doesn't mean that faction conflict cannot become a thing again (and it should come again at some point), but while Cosmic beings are focused in killing us, it's just natural that Horde and Alliance become closer and closer allies.

It's kind of pants on head if there's so many getting tired now when we're on the cusp of a giant light vs void war, isn't it?

[AOL Instant Messenger]

I mean, this makes perfect sense.

It's impossible that most characters are not tired of fighting. Azeroth had world ending threats continuously for the last 30 years. To be fair they should all be completely traumatized and crazy.

Pretty big digression on my part, but if we want to play around the effects of trauma on a character, someone I think is overlooked in that respect is Azeroth.

She has every reason to (a.) be very much traumatized in a way that actually has substance, especially if Blizzard doesn't magically wave away (so the audience can stay comfy-wumfy, obviously) Sargeras being a cosmic child molester trying to induct a fetus into his space genocide cult, and (b.) create substantive conflict for other people because a plausible and sympathetic interpretation her undeveloped brain could very reasonably come to is "risky actions and violence can solve my problems" given that she'd know it was a deranged blue incel gambling the entire planet's survival on a direct assault on Argus that beat the Legion and the only person who consistently and completely bound one of the group most directly responsible for her suffering to his will was a testosterone-poisoned orc warmonger.

Having Azeroth be bitter, militant, and vindictive would be a good way to start handling that topic and would spare us the insufferable beat of a magic Mary Sue loli who we just must Protec UwU. It would also be a much better and more human portrayal of someone severely traumatized than a poor, tired baby who can do no wrong and carries the standard of uhhh Freedom or smth.

[Jastall]

Time and a place for everything - but that doesn't mean EVERY time and EVERY place for anything. Cozycore and Hopepunk are both great and interesting genre movements, but that doesn't mean they should be overriding directives. It's not like WoW was ever really grimdark, even in its early days. Gritty, yeah, but always in a bit of a silly way, too. So there's nothing to really course-correct, this was always mainstream as fuck.

And I agree completely: taking WoW's story in some new directions is a good thing in the abstract. The whole Orcs vs. Humans shtick has long since outlived its usefulness and something beyond the constant and somewhat petty territorial warfare was absolutely warranted. Explorations of political and ideological systems etc. are all great ideas for this kind of world-building.

But the pillow-fort mentality of hyper-sanitized narrative is not only a turnoff for fans of the franchise's more gritty past, it's also counterproductive and self-defeating. Garrosh calling Sylvanas a bitch isn't an endorsement of misogynist rhetoric. He's an asshole. Assholes say shitty things that make you not like them. Similarly with the greenskin slur - you're supposed to find that startling and objectionable. These characters are being racists, for various reasons; and that doesn't mean that is a good thing.

It really drives me up the wall that somehow we have come to a point where people have apparently lost the ability to discern what is a character's view and what is a writer's view; for whatever reason, there's many theories as to why. What are people saying, that any time you write a character that's a murderer you are endorsing murder? Or downplaying the severity of murder? Or implicitly condoning murder? Because that's exactly the kind of arguments I hear from people, except substituting other words for "murder".

And don't get me wrong, I'm absolutely for holding authors accountable, and absolutely for demanding critical engagement in fiction. But critical doesn't mean sanitized. If you don't trust your audience to be able to handle a problematic term or topic, it means you don't trust yourself as a writer to convey that term or topic in a critically appropriate way. Or, by extension, that a company doesn't trust their writers to do so. Why? Because they know the people ultimately responsible for oversight and management aren't up to the task. So they just do heavy-handed white-out crusading to cleanse anything with potential for offense that they aren't functionally adult enough to properly evaluate.

Fuck shit like that Jade Witch control-F replace editing. Do they think we're idiots, or do they think they're idiots? Or both?

I feel like half the Blizzard writing room probably agrees with you, while the other half is what's pushing said sanitization. The issue is, the latter group is writing the main story beats, while the former one is mostly in charge of side-stuff that only those deep into the lore ever have a chance of hearing about. The fact that it's been going into overdrive ever since the Afriasabi related scandals tell me that there's probably a lot of office politics behind all those issues. I don't think this is being done to appease a particular fanbase; the writers are writing this way because they want to do it, and there isn't enough challenge for a probable myriad of reasons.

[Darkarath]

Then they should just end the game if they want to write the story where everyone is exhausted and tired of fighting and the story is written to support that as being the right attitude to have for every character. If they don't have any more stories to tell then they should close the book and say The End. But the game is going to keep going and most of the gameplay is killing things. Instead of writing a story, characters and vibe that acknowledge that reality, they're enforcing this cozycore feelgood Tumblr vibe that totally clashes with the gameplay itself. They might as well just declare that housing is the true continuation of the story and all new zones, dungeons and raids are non-canon

That would not make sense.

Our heroes keep fighting because they must. But that doesn't mean that they want to keep doing it. They need to do it to survive, but it's only natural that they are tremendously tired of conflict.

What are they supposed to say?

"Yes !! Another villain to kill !! Another world ending monster that threats to kill all my loved ones!! Wonderful times !!"

[Rosstafa]

Sylvanas is still a very popular character with the overall fanbase, for a variety of reasons. Garrosh is mostly popular with a subset of lore grognards that Blizzard hasn't been listening to for more than a decade, and it's not like shitting on him hasn't been a sport since Mists where they literally made him Hitler.

Yeah, it's bullshit and Sylvanas should stay in the Maw forevermore, but she's a hot elf chick and Garrosh isn't, soooo...

Blizzard also kind of hand-waved away her crimes with the excuse of her soul being incomplete, so she was basically being manipulated by the Jailer the whole time. Garrosh however was driven by his own will, and though you could argue that Pandaria and the influence of the sha pushed him further into his descent, he didn't exactly stop after that. Sylvanas being given a get out of jail free card is really dumb, not just because it minimises her responsibility for her actions, but it also means that as a character everything she did for most of WoW wasn't even really her. It completely undermines her agency. Plus it just makes her less interesting as a character to know she didn't mean anything.

The writers seem torn between wanting to tell these stories about grief and dealing with the past, but also not wanting to get too deep into difficult subjects. The result at times is that some quests can feel like they don't handle heavy themes well. Past atrocities are glossed over for the sake of peace and moving on. Characters have to change even though they've shown no real desire to and have many reasons not to. Blizz need to realise it's fine for characters to be awful and to resist changing - to feel like their hatred is justified. As a Horde player, I do not expect Tyrande or Jaina to ever truly trust anyone in the Horde like they may have once.

[GeometryWizard]

That would not make sense.

Our heroes keep fighting because they must. But that doesn't mean that they want to keep doing it. They need to do it to survive, but it's only natural that they are tremendously tired of conflict.

What are they supposed to say?

"Yes !! Another villain to kill !! Another world ending monster that threats to kill all my loved ones!! Wonderful times !!"

Yeah lol, completely seriously yeah. Tons of generals, politicians, and rulers IRL have been ruthless, ambitious, manipulative, etc. Some of them abuse chaos for their own personal gain, others use it to benefit their people, but all of them are stepping up to the plate. They actively seek leadership and are aggressive in pursuing their desires

Every character in WoW is moving away from anything like that. They're all becoming homogenized into the same character: their only ideal is having a tea party with everyone else, they absolutely hate any form of conflict or fighting, they have no desire to be a leader and either become a leader extremely reluctantly or abandon leadership altogether, they have no desires or ambitions beyond being inert husks huddled away at home. With housing I bet we will start seeing them make some of the minor characters into nothing but Funko Pop collectors that treat Azeroth like it's Stardew Valley

Maybe the story would be more interesting if it challenged that kind of character but instead it just portrays them as absolutely right. The "doubtful" characters like Arator are mouthpieces that tell you every correct opinion and moral you're supposed to have, at no point are you actually supposed to view them as some troubled character that is struggling to form a worldview. They have their worldview already, they just preach it at you with a lot of ... and ..? at the end of their sentences

[Biomega]

the writers are writing this way because they want to do it, and there isn't enough challenge for a probable myriad of reasons.

Well, that's possible of course. It's a delicate interplay between writers and creative directors in a collaborative product like this.

I personally lay the blame at the management level because it's their responsibility, even if it's not their fault. Their job to hire the right people and give them the right instructions. But that doesn't mean the writers are totally off the hook, of course, and I agree that there's probably a lot of people there who actively want this direction and want to write this kind of story because they think that's the way of the future.

They are mistaken, of course. This just isn't good writing, no matter who's to blame.

[Khaza-R]

Blizzard also kind of hand-waved away her crimes with the excuse of her soul being incomplete, so she was basically being manipulated by the Jailer the whole time. Garrosh however was driven by his own will, and though you could argue that Pandaria and the influence of the sha pushed him further into his descent, he didn't exactly stop after that. Sylvanas being given a get out of jail free card is really dumb, not just because it minimises her responsibility for her actions, but it also means that as a character everything she did for most of WoW wasn't even really her. It completely undermines her agency. Plus it just makes her less interesting as a character to know she didn't mean anything.

The writers seem torn between wanting to tell these stories about grief and dealing with the past, but also not wanting to get too deep into difficult subjects. The result at times is that some quests can feel like they don't handle heavy themes well. Past atrocities are glossed over for the sake of peace and moving on. Characters have to change even though they've shown no real desire to and have many reasons not to. Blizz need to realise it's fine for characters to be awful and to resist changing - to feel like their hatred is justified. As a Horde player, I do not expect Tyrande or Jaina to ever truly trust anyone in the Horde like they may have once.

Very well said.

This is also my issue with the whole Arcantina quest. It has nothing to do with the portrayal of Garrosh but rather the AU Maghar and problematic narrative it pushes. They want to scapegoat him for their own crimes? I am sorry but that's wild. You were fully ready to axe some Draenei children to pieces and invade another world you've never heard of before for "glory". No amount of being misled absolves of them of that. And mind you they did this all with complete mental clarity. Unlike the MU Orcs who at least committed brazen genocide under the influence of demon drugs. Its just an absolutely garbage message to push and it should deleted.

[Warden Shadowsong]

Well written. Completely agree. Shame this is considered a "chud" opinion these days.

[allegrian]

Wow current story and characters feel like are constantly apologising for being what made everyone love wow in the first place.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

This is also my issue with the whole Arcantina quest. It has nothing to do with the portrayal of Garrosh but rather the AU Maghar and problematic narrative it pushes. They want to scapegoat him for their own crimes? I am sorry but that's wild. You were fully ready to axe some Draenei children to pieces and invade another world you've never heard of before for "glory". No amount of being misled absolves of them of that. And mind you they did this all with complete mental clarity. Unlike the MU Orcs who at least committed brazen genocide under the influence of demon drugs. Its just an absolutely garbage message to push and it should deleted.

Clean Iron Horde sure is a strange new angle. I hope we eventually get a quest where Garrosh's armaments minister explains how they were really more of an apolitical technocrat to match.

[LarryWithTheWeatherReport]

Well written. Completely agree. Shame this is considered a "chud" opinion these days.

[Xilurm]

What happened to this thread? I couldn't access it and then I had to verify I'm a human?

[Rosstafa]

Very well said.

This is also my issue with the whole Arcantina quest. It has nothing to do with the portrayal of Garrosh but rather the AU Maghar and problematic narrative it pushes. They want to scapegoat him for their own crimes? I am sorry but that's wild. You were fully ready to axe some Draenei children to pieces and invade another world you've never heard of before for "glory". No amount of being misled absolves of them of that. And mind you they did this all with complete mental clarity. Unlike the MU Orcs who at least committed brazen genocide under the influence of demon drugs. Its just an absolutely garbage message to push and it should deleted.

Even with the main universe Orcs, plenty of them will have seen what was happening to those who took the fel magic and what they were doing - and they still went with it. I'm a Horde player through and through but our faction has a lot of blood on its hands. The modern iteration of the Horde is build upon the notion of overcoming that past and trying to build a better future, even if everyone thinks you're a monster. Part of that should be seeking forgiveness and making amends where possible, but that does not mean forgetting what happened and trying to pin the blame on figures like Garrosh or Sylvanas. Peace doesn't mean the Alliance has to sit around a campfire with us.