Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[rainhard]

What happened to this thread? I couldn't access it and then I had to verify I'm a human?

Same, probably a lot of traffic on the forum?

[Jastall]

Pretty big digression here, but if we want to play around the effects of trauma on a character, someone I think is overlooked in that respect is Azeroth.

She has every reason to be (a.) very much traumatized in a way that actually has substance, especially if Blizzard doesn't magically wave away (so the audience can stay comfy-wumfy, obviously) Sargeras being a cosmic child molester trying to induct a fetus into his space genocide cult, and (b.) create substantive conflict for other people because a plausible and sympathetic interpretation her undeveloped brain could very reasonably come to is "risky actions and violence can solve my problems" given that she'd know it was a deranged blue incel gambling the entire planet's survival on a direct assault on Argus that beat the Legion and the only person who consistently and completely bound one of the group most directly responsible for her suffering to his will was a testosterone-poisoned orc warmonger.

Having Azeroth be bitter, militant, and vindictive would be a good way to start handling that topic and would spare us the insufferable beat of yet another magic Mary Sue loli who we just must Protec UwU. It would also be a much better and more human portrayal of someone severely traumatized than a poor, tired baby who can do no wrong.

The general consequences of a world in perpetual war like Azeroth would be fun to see, but it requires worldbuilding chops that Blizzard never had and never will have. The factions should be in shambles after fighting so many wars both against each other and against whatever is descending from the sky to eat the planet this time around. Self-appointed protector entities like the Keepers or Aspects should be extraordinarily distrustful of mortals who have proven ripe for all sorts of corruption time and time again. The people who've been constantly killing anything with a red health bar for decades should be either crazed, sick of it all or so numb that they stopped caring about anything, with different races having different reactions of course. Some races like the Blood Elves should be all but extinct and incapable of simply rebuilding their majestic capitals. As you said, Azeroth herself having been both prey and prize to all kinds of disgraceful sorts should have grave effects on her personality.

By all rights the planet should be an almost post-apocalyptic hellhole with the scars of war, forbidden magic, and dangerous creatures everywhere to see. But that's not fun, nor conductive not only to the ongoing story about unity against the monster of the week, but to the cozy feeling a lot of the fanbase wants to have. Ain't no way you would be able to worry about what decor to apply to your new house when there's a giant purple sky beam making monsters of pure entropy manifest in your backyard, and it's only Tuesday.

Blizzard also kind of hand-waved away her crimes with the excuse of her soul being incomplete, so she was basically being manipulated by the Jailer the whole time. Garrosh however was driven by his own will, and though you could argue that Pandaria and the influence of the sha pushed him further into his descent, he didn't exactly stop after that. Sylvanas being given a get out of jail free card is really dumb, not just because it minimises her responsibility for her actions, but it also means that as a character everything she did for most of WoW wasn't even really her. It completely undermines her agency. Plus it just makes her less interesting as a character to know she didn't mean anything.

The writers seem torn between wanting to tell these stories about grief and dealing with the past, but also not wanting to get too deep into difficult subjects. The result at times is that some quests can feel like they don't handle heavy themes well. Past atrocities are glossed over for the sake of peace and moving on. Characters have to change even though they've shown no real desire to and have many reasons not to. Blizz need to realise it's fine for characters to be awful and to resist changing - to feel like their hatred is justified. As a Horde player, I do not expect Tyrande or Jaina to ever truly trust anyone in the Horde like they may have once.

It's something I've seen in my casual D&D playgroup; people wanting their fantasy to be more "mature" than the baseline good-versus-evil fare which I understand, but not knowing how to handle such themes when shit gets too heavy and they have to actually think about the ramifications of the world they're in, their actions within it, the consequences of the wanton slaughter a lot of campaigns feature, and how different peoples and characters might react to different events and tragedies. So the default reflex is to "just get along" after a while because it's more comforting, easier to write/experience and doesn't elicit immediate controversy. Consequences aren't fun, and it's a game that should be fun, ergo the game shouldn't have consequences. I get it from an escapist point of view but it doesn't gel with my vision of fantasy and constructed worlds writ large.

As for Sylvanas, no notes, I 100% agree. The soul split shouldn't have happened and the character should have permanently died for her misdeeds instead of having an entire book written to retcon 20 years of wildly inconsistent lore into a lame excuse for said crimes. But as I said upthread, she's too popular to kill. They'll glaze her for a while, then market the hell out of her return.

[Rosstafa]

It's something I've seen in my casual D&D playgroup; people wanting their fantasy to be more "mature" than the baseline good-versus-evil fare which I understand, but not knowing how to handle such themes when shit gets too heavy and they have to actually think about the ramifications of the world they're in, their actions within it, the consequences of the wanton slaughter a lot of campaigns feature, and how different peoples and characters might react to different events and tragedies. So the default reflex is to "just get along" after a while because it's more comforting, easier to write/experience and doesn't elicit immediate controversy. Consequences aren't fun, and it's a game that should be fun, ergo the game shouldn't have consequences. I get it from an escapist point of view but it doesn't gel with my vision of fantasy and constructed worlds writ large.

As for Sylvanas, no notes, I 100% agree. The soul split shouldn't have happened and the character should have permanently died for her misdeeds instead of having an entire book written to retcon 20 years of wildly inconsistent lore into a lame excuse for said crimes. But as I said upthread, she's too popular to kill. They'll glaze her for a while, then market the hell out of her return.

I think the issue comes down to representing an entire faction as being on the 'bad side'. I think the WoW writers and D&D writers are afraid of the implication being that an entire people are evil, but a faction can be morally wrong overall without it reflecting on every single citizen. Germany was clearly on the wrong side in WW2, but that doesn't mean everyone was on board with it. It's okay for the Horde or the Alliance to be the bad guy in the moment without it being that faction's entire identity. Funnily enough, I think Mists of Pandaria did a great job of showing this, with development of the extremist side of Garrosh loyalists and the Vol'jin rebellion against him, while you had the hardline anti-Horde Alliance leaders, and those who saw Garrosh didn't represent them all. MoP handled a tonne of really interesting themes far more boldly than recent expansions have dared to.

Also I hope Sylvanas dies this expansion. She can have her sacrificial death to prove she's changed, but I'm real tired of her.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

By all rights the planet should be an almost post-apocalyptic hellhole with the scars of war, forbidden magic, and dangerous creatures everywhere to see. But that's not fun, nor conductive not only to the ongoing story about unity against the monster of the week, but to the cozy feeling a lot of the fanbase wants to have. Ain't no way you would be able to worry about what decor to apply to your new house when there's a giant purple sky beam making monsters of pure entropy manifest in your backyard, and it's only Tuesday.

To be clear, I'm by no means shilling for Azeroth as a world being an aggressively dark, unforgiving place (though I'd definitely like it to be less cartoonishly twee and closer to what it was in Classic and WCIII) so much as I am for (1.) it having some level of realistic impediments and significant challenges to the "cozy" element, and (2.) for Azeroth the World-Soul herself being as I described.

[Jastall]

To be clear, I'm by no means shilling for Azeroth as a world being an aggressively dark, unforgiving place (though I'd definitely like it to be less cartoonishly twee and closer to what it was in Classic and WCIII) so much as I am for (1.) it having some level of realistic impediments and significant challenges to the "cozy" element, and (2.) for Azeroth the World-Soul herself being as I described.

Agreed. I wasn't advocating for turning Warcraft into Dark Souls or whatever, just saying the setting has a history of sweeping the consequences of its narratives under the rug unfortunately.

[Ereb]

They need to focus on hype moments and aura farming instead of woke bs like "character development" ew

Surely this is satire. Character development is "woke" now? El oh effin el you got me!

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Imo they needed arator because they haven't given the horde any stake in any expansion for years, so he's basically the horde anduin.

Anduin is needed because he is an indication of the next generation of alliance storytelling.

Faerin is needed because shes the "in" to the other human empire and I stg I can't get it out of my head that she's going to end up part of the royal line and the two of them will marry it's just cemented into my head despite everything.

That brings me to the weirdness of pushing Arator as a neutral character when they could have just focused on a Blood Elf, instead of the son of two alliance heroes and leaders.

It's just, odd. I really feels there's something else they want to do with him.

- - - Updated - - -

well, we don't know where the authors want the story to head towards too. For example, if we have in the very near future a very strong focus on the light, they would need to bring a few different light types of characters up to speed to show different things. Like, in Midnight we see the lights blinding effects and could see a focus on these characters in that expansion. So, there is not a lot of time, and several different people need to be build up quite close to each other.

I could see easily a light based patch in which a new generation of paladins step up to fill the void that the old original five left. Faerin, Anduin, Arator are a start, but there should at least be two more. I could see Liadrin and Dezco step in as a more senior figure to round out the young ones. But this is of course speculation. But i wouldn't be surprisedd.

Perhaps! TBH a "new guard" of Paladins/Light weilders to help carry the story forward could be it. To me, is just the overlap that Arator has with both Faerin and Anduin what gives me some structural pause. (Specially with Faerin being introduced one expansion earlier) There's a sense of redundancy to me in the whole set up, in a way that doesn't feel like an oversight, but intentional.

[Reive]

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...rfed_on_alpha/

can anyone check this?

[Santandame]

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...rfed_on_alpha/

can anyone check this?

This would be classic Blizzard. I wouldn’t put it past them.

[Eldryth]

That brings me to the weirdness of pushing Arator as a neutral character when they could have just focused on a Blood Elf, instead of the son of two alliance heroes and leaders.

It's just, odd. I really feels there's something else they want to do with him.

It seems pretty simple to me- the story is about their family bonds, and as such, the characters aren't really interchangeable. That much is all expected and sensible- of course the family of Light/Void heroes, who have been at the heart of the Light and Void story ever since Legion, would be central to a Light vs. Void expansion.

The big problem is that the direction they seem to have chosen for said story is an inexperienced Arator redeeming his father (the scenes I've seen from the end of Arator's Journey seem pretty clear about it being that rather than Turalyon turning to a villain), which would certainly give his classic epithet meaning, but doesn't really line up with Turalyon's past characterization or Arator's experience in Legion.


Arator's side of that issue seems pretty easy to fix, actually- instead of making it about his ignorance, have a clear event that gives him a crisis of faith, and makes him question his past teachings. Maybe just place a heavier focus on the Vanguard neglecting the civilians in the intro storyline, and have that cause Arator's doubts.

Turalyon is harder, but even that could work if they make his mistakes self-contained in Midnight instead of trying to rewrite his battle with Orgrim. Have him just be too focused on the Void until he hurts Arator and realizes that civilians have been killed because of his tunnel vision, and struggle with guilt from that.


Regardless, their relationships are the focus of the story, and that has been the case for the Light/Void storyline for a long time now, so using different characters was never a real option.

[Nymrohd]

This would be classic Blizzard. I wouldn’t put it past them.

To be fair, it is entire possible that the PTR test showed they cannot possibly support the budgets originally promised without the servers crashing.

- - - Updated - - -

Turalyon is harder, but even that could work if they make his mistakes self-contained in Midnight instead of trying to rewrite his battle with Orgrim. Have him just be too focused on the Void until he hurts Arator and realizes that civilians have been killed because of his tunnel vision, and struggle with guilt from that.

The thing is, that battle is probably in a cutscene and they are not easily going to rework a cutscene they spent time on
Of course it could be that the text is more dramatic than what actually happen; could be less and it is an even bigger retcon when it goes live. And we won't know for a long while how it actually looks.

[BaumanKing]

None of that really aligns with what the Blood Elves and High Elves went through in Quel'Thalas, though. The vast majority of their populace was wiped out during the Scourge invasion and the remaining survivors were further decimated by various political divides, exile and being cut down for aligning with Kael'thas Sunstrider.

Many younger Blood Elves and High Elves were forced to grow up quickly due to the dire circumstances that they found themselves in. Arator would be no exception, given that he was raised in a harsh land himself.

I know, but Vereesa somehow managed to make Arator's youth tranquil. I suppose they lived in Dalaran, but even citizens of Dalaran have had their own share of many hardships.

Arator says: I can't imagine what each of them has gone through. My own life has been... tranquil by comparison.
Vereesa Windrunner says: As was Alleria's wish. That you enjoy the halcyon youth that we never could.
Arator says: A wish you granted a thousand times over. She wanted to thank you for that.

https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/The_Eleventh_Hour

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I know, but Vereesa somehow managed to make Arator's youth tranquil. I suppose they lived in Dalaran, but even citizens of Dalaran have had their own share of many hardships.


https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/The_Eleventh_Hour

pretty sure they mention in war of the ancients that they had a house a bit away from Dalaran in the mountains over looking the area so it's not unlikely they would have avoided all of the problems that hit Dal/Lorderon until it started flying.

[Sondrelk]

It's a consequence of the neighbourhood system, I wager. I'd rather just have private housing that I can invite friends to like in TESO. FFXIV suffered similar limits due to an enforced neighbourhood.

Could also be a consequence of housing being balanced to accomodate the 11.2.7 early access. Leave it as bare bones as possible to allow as many upgrades as possible when Midnight proper launches. Or assuming a less vindictive view, prevent the servers from crashing during Stress Test 2.0 when the patch goes live.

[BaumanKing]

The thing is, that battle is probably in a cutscene and they are not easily going to rework a cutscene they spent time on
Of course it could be that the text is more dramatic than what actually happen; could be less and it is an even bigger retcon when it goes live. And we won't know for a long while how it actually looks.

Unfortunately. Turalyon isn't voiced yet, but his young model is already in the files, so they're definitely working on a cutscene right now. Once he is fully voiced, Blizzard won't change anything, as VAs aren't cheap. Especially someone like Travis.

[Rosstafa]

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...rfed_on_alpha/

can anyone check this?

I wouldn't stress over this too much. It's alpha, after all. It doesn't necessarily mean this will make it to launch.

[Cheezits]

While it's good to point out lore errors and poor writing, complaining about cozycore is like screaming into a hurricane. It's the only way a live service game is going to persist in today's social climate.

...also this is nowhere near as bad as Dragonflight.

[Holdodlig]

Sylvanas is still a very popular character with the overall fanbase, for a variety of reasons. Garrosh is mostly popular with a subset of lore grognards that Blizzard hasn't been listening to for more than a decade, and it's not like shitting on him hasn't been a sport since Mists where they literally made him Hitler.

Yeah, it's bullshit and Sylvanas should stay in the Maw forevermore, but she's a hot elf chick and Garrosh isn't, soooo...

While I agree that Sylvanas has the "I sold a lot of expensive goodies" pass and that she shouldn't have a redemption because it just confirms that the whole BFA / Shadowlands lore was pointless, I disagree that it's a boobies pass. Characters such as Illidan, Malygos or even Kael'thas had either their redemption arc or their forgiveness arc. And they've already set stones for Neltharion to get his own redemption arc when the Titans will prove to be fuckers.

I mean, Illidan was the MF who almost destroyed Northrend with the Eye of Sargeras, who chickened out of the world in order to flee from Kil'jaeden (failed), who failed to kill the Lich King again, who got back in Outland and enslaved most of its population, who constantly attacked the remaining Alliance and Horde soldiers here, the draenei resistance in Shattrath and the dissidents. That guy was a tyrant, probably worse than Garrosh in term of what he did in Outland and he got his redemption arc after a retcon who said that he did this to destroy the Burning Legion. And the funniest thing about that is that draenei never had interactions with demon hunters even though they tried to kill them on Outland.

As for Malygos, the guy attempted a genocide on mages, almost allowed the Scourge to kill all mortals because of how careless he was, he destroyed quite a lot of places with his Nexus BS. And let's also not forget that the guy mindcontrolled his wife's murderer in order to make her his new wife. MF got himself a new consort without knowing about consent. And yet he was allowed a nice goodbye, with Kalecgos going in "You left a brillant legacy". Non consent, genocide and mind control is a brillant legacy I guess ?

Even Kael'thas got his redemption arc. The guy double crossed an asshole (Illidan) for an even bigger asshole (Kil'jaeden), he destroyed a whole region (Netherstorm), he attempted to corrupt the Sunwell and to doom his people / Azeroth to the Burning Legion. And yet he's been in Revendreth, allowing him to help us. And in an instant, his "THIS WORLD SHALL BURN" persona was gone and his integrity got restaured because they enphased on how poor Kael'thas did it for his people. But I honestly won't blame them that much for Kael'thas as I always thought that making him a villain was such a waste, especially when they appointed Lor'themar the nobody as the Blood Elves leader.

It's not just Sylvanas, it's their will to make things either "morally grey" or to humanize monsters because they think redemption arcs are cool or because they are afraid that their villains are going to be bland if they don't give them some kind of depth. But what's the moral behind that ? How the fuck are people supposed to find it believable that half the planet suddenly forget / forgive all of Sylvanas' warcrimes ? Let it be a damn fiction where people don't need shitloads of reasons for people to be good or evil, especially in a world where magic forces can have an impact on your reasoning with stuff such as fel magic making you mentally unstable, or void showing you visions of how fun it is to kill people (and now light making you all angry because seeing your mentor die against a people who came to eradicate your specie is apparently evil in modern lore).

The fact is most of the modern writing team don't give a fuck about the previous lore and it's been like that since at least Shadowlands where they touched most of the Scourge / Arthas lore, retconned the importance of Titans by adding the First One and brushed the community's feedback by ego. I mean, Danuser isn't hated for a reason. All of Shadowlands' lore just looks like an egotrip where the people in charge of the game's lore were just attempting to shit on anything that was made before, trying to make all the major events on Azeroth seems to be as insignificant against their big cosmic schemes. This was done through the game's history, but also with through the bestiary (goofy scourge creatures), the small flavor items (the player looting specimens of Old God as if the 4 you fought on Azeroth were just jokes) and of course with how poorly they've treated some characters.

Some of what they produces is promising. The Arathi stuff is cool even if it comes out of nowhere. The harranir are ok even if they make the night elves obsolete. But somehow, whenever they take an old character and try to give it lore they fail.

[Santandame]

I wouldn't stress over this too much. It's alpha, after all. It doesn't necessarily mean this will make it to launch.

Famously said during BfA and SL alpha and beta cycles.

[vindicator782]

Famously said during BfA and SL alpha and beta cycles.

Yes but if the house tour house no longer works under these restrictions quite clearly this is just for testing purposes