Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Jaggler]

This xpac is confusing when it comes to the faction stuff. One side there’s a lot of tension and potential conflict and the other they’re friends.

I want a faction war again. They can easily keep the cross-faction stuff (or even expand cross faction even more) and explain it as being mercenaries.

One is the grand scheme of things and the political landscape as a whole, the other is individuals scting on their own. We always had a bit of a schizophrenic world state with Horde and Alliance being at each others throats, but champions working together. That's not sonething terribly new

I mean, I would bet an entire limb on this happening.

Metzen has always generally done the same two plots over and over again for better or worse. An oppressive precursor responsible for the upending of mortals or a redemption story of a character turning their power against the people responsible to find "true justice."

He has Illidan and Sargeras conveniently sitting there in the same location to do both at the same time. And we've already been told that we're not prepared. This time our warning of doom comes on wings.

Hey, you forgot the corruption storyline!

[GeometryWizard]

Serious question. What gave the impression they would actually merge the factions?

In DF they made Amirdrassil and Gilneas completely neutral and have been downplaying the faction stuff as much as they can. In TWW alpha Alleria had a line "we can no longer be Alliance or Horde" that they removed because people got mad about it. IMO the Midnight stuff is handled so confusingly because it's a half-assed backpedal by them since they didn't realize people care about the factions way more than Blizzard does. People get more mad about there not being any faction exclusive content when what we get instead is 3 hours of picking up and taking pictures of bees which just shows what they prioritize anymore internally

[milkmustache]

This xpac is confusing when it comes to the faction stuff. One side there’s a lot of tension and potential conflict and the other they’re friends.

I want a faction war again. They can easily keep the cross-faction stuff (or even expand cross faction even more) and explain it as being mercenaries.

This is what I mean about them leaning into main characters being a mistake. It should be the faction leaders who are hawkish and the every day people who are maybe more tired of the fighting, but instead we have warchiefs and generals kumbaya-ing at Khadgar's magical pub. It's just such a weird back and forth.

If they're using the Arcantina as a playground for writers to take their favorite characters and write a fun lil story!!! about them, then I can't help but feel like at the very least they'd have to make sure that story is consistent with both the current plot landscape and the individuals characterizations before just mashing in fanfic as an extracurricular, because that's what it feels like in its current state.

[allegrian]

Serious question. What gave the impression they would actually merge the factions?

I was talking more from a lore point of view and gameplay feel than actually joining horde and alliance mechanically. Right now the horde has the same values and story as the alliance and all racial leaders are friends with the opposite faction leaders. They are also adding neutral races that don't fit one of the factions.

What's the point in alliance/horde now? The story is being sanitized and all past hatreds are treated as "problematic" or "racism" so they are being removed, and characters like Genn or tyrande who should have permanent grudges against the other faction, are retired and replaced by "open minded" characters that become friends with especifically the forsaken leader for some reason. They made stupid decisions like adding Eitrigg to the sons of lothar group. What's next? An orc statue in the Stormwind entrance?

Getting alliance Amani trolls will be the breaking point for me where I'll just stop caring about lore, faction and immersion in the story.

[Vakir]

Hey, you forgot the corruption storyline!

The precursor is always corrupted! But yeah. I more meant the "bigger picture" stuff but if we're talking, say, Arthas, it's also that.

[GeometryWizard]

This is what I mean about them leaning into main characters being a mistake. It should be the faction leaders who are hawkish and the every day people who are maybe more tired of the fighting, but instead we have warchiefs and generals kumbaya-ing at Khadgar's magical pub. It's just such a weird back and forth.

If they're using the Arcantina as a playground for writers to take their favorite characters and write a fun lil story!!! about them, then I can't help but feel like at the very least they'd have to make sure that story is consistent with both the current plot landscape and the individuals characterizations before just mashing in fanfic as an extracurricular, because that's what it feels like in its current state.

Fanfic is a really good way of putting it, that's what a lot of the new writing feels like. Like cozycore one-shot fanfics that aren't meant to affect the story written by the actual author in any way except in this case there's no real author anymore. They don't care about the Alliance or Horde or even Azeroth itself, they just want to write about the same couple characters that they've made up versions of in their head that leak out into the game writing and just confuse the players even more

It's why I say feedback is pointless because they have to be dragged kicking or screaming into writing anything the players are actually attached to. Let's face it for those who know, they don't want to write WoW, they wish they were writing the Scions of the 7th Dawn in FFXIV and keep trying to force the idea into WoW. That's probably the endgame idea for the Sons of Lothar reboot they're trying to force

[Vakir]

Let's face it for those who know, they don't want to write WoW, they wish they were writing the Scions of the 7th Dawn in FFXIV and keep trying to force the idea into WoW. That's probably the endgame idea for the Sons of Lothar reboot they're trying to force

Which is hilarious because even the Scions have more internal conflicts than the current lobotomy patients we have, and when they do insert themselves into wars, there's typically a lot more thought put into the political ramifications and logistics (except for EW Garlemald, but the story was so damn sad that I don't think anyone wanted to see a realistic version of how that would go). They are idealistic characters but the world exists to explain why these ideals matter. But the ideals of the modern WoW are incompatible with a lot of the characters espousing them, especially absolutely insane examples like Danath.

It's not even a matter of quality, though - Blizzard can't really do comparable storytelling because they invest about 1/20th as much time into story in exchange for being way more gameplay heavy. They do far better with pulp and excuse plots. That's why the version we're getting now feels like a dead end because there's no way to make interesting and nuanced characters in a conflict-lite soap opera that has about 30-40 minutes total per major patch allocated to it.

Meanwhile, very broad conflicts with a clear antagonist and a lot of spectacle (like most of a given zone campaign) tend to be generally fun and inoffensive unless they try to do some wild mold breaking.

[rainhard]

Somethings fishy about knowing the raids zone and raid raid content, something tells me it won't be the only raid of 12.1 patch, especially since the 1st tier has three.

[Jaggler]

Somethings fishy about knowing the raids zone and raid raid content, something tells me it won't be the only raid of 12.1 patch, especially since the 1st tier has three.

Well we knew about the Goblin and Ethereal raid pre-tww release as well.

They could certainly introduce more raids, but the trollraid will probably be the "main" one

[Joshuaj]

The whole expansion is about the Light. Void gets solved in 12.0, 12.1 is a troll sidequst and then 12.2. with Light themed last boss. Either off-world cosmic zone or Siege of Stormwind against Turalyon's new Lightforged Crusade.

I'm aware of the Light maybe becoming an antagonist in a future Midnight patch, but nothing implies a Zereth.

[Enrif]

we're back into faction story discussions?

I hate the faction system for some time now. I don't think we should go back to a Horde versus Alliance system. Let both of these groups collapse. And build new stuff from it. Or as Sylvanas once said " Alliances forged and broken". We should really have a big event that breaks both factions in a way, but that can set up new allied groups.

[shoc]

It would be hilarious if we actually team up with Sargeras on TLT. With the threat of the Void Lords gone and his crusade becoming obsolete, he'll help us take down the titans who want to forcibly convert Azeroth. Him pulling out the sword to erase the Pantheon once again

I consent to this only if he strikes this pose when he does

[Limayria]

we're back into faction story discussions?

I hate the faction system for some time now. I don't think we should go back to a Horde versus Alliance system. Let both of these groups collapse. And build new stuff from it. Or as Sylvanas once said " Alliances forged and broken". We should really have a big event that breaks both factions in a way, but that can set up new allied groups.

People like to tell themselves the writing in wow is bad because it's an MMO, but the writing in wow is bad because it's an MMO with two factions who literally can not change in any negative way at all ever, once joined no one can leave. And no faction can ever actually lose or be destroyed or give up major territory so there's no stakes at all for even the NPCs on our side.

Why did the Scions suffer more at the end of the ARR quest, than the horde did at the end of the siege of orgrimar?

[Vakir]

Her character writing has been inconsistent and atrocious, but it is worth noting in this one very specific example, the general deeds since TFT Sylvanas is talking about in the 2023 image are not the same as the very specific thing she is talking about in the 2025 image.

(Also who knows how much time passed given how they've made up that time difference nonsense for SL but it really is about a different topic altogether)

Why did the Scions suffer more at the end of the ARR quest, than the horde did at the end of the siege of orgrimar?

The end of ARR is a fun little Game of Thrones swerve, but I dunno if it's the best example, since almost all of the major impact to the Scions is undone and irrelevant, and what isn't undone lacks a lot of logistical consistency. Siege at least led to WoD and Garrosh being dead.

They definitely threw out a lot of the Lolorito stuff planned and implied by the cinematic.

A better example would be something like the Wrathgate, and I consider that to be ground zero for some of the dumbest shit in WoW and it's held up as some amazing paragon of storytelling by the community. Go figure.

[milkmustache]

Which is hilarious because even the Scions have more internal conflicts than the current lobotomy patients we have, and when they do insert themselves into wars, there's typically a lot more thought put into the political ramifications and logistics (except for EW Garlemald, but the story was so damn sad that I don't think anyone wanted to see a realistic version of how that would go). They are idealistic characters but the world exists to explain why these ideals matter. But the ideals of the modern WoW are incompatible with a lot of the characters espousing them, especially absolutely insane examples like Danath.

It's not even a matter of quality, though - Blizzard can't really do comparable storytelling because they invest about 1/20th as much time into story in exchange for being way more gameplay heavy. They do far better with pulp and excuse plots. That's why the version we're getting now feels like a dead end because there's no way to make interesting and nuanced characters in a conflict-lite soap opera that has about 30-40 minutes total per major patch allocated to it.

Meanwhile, very broad conflicts with a clear antagonist and a lot of spectacle (like most of a given zone campaign) tend to be generally fun and inoffensive unless they try to do some wild mold breaking.

I'm sure this sort of thing is also why we slide deeper into such a pie-slice cosmic heavy plot approach as well. Every orc and human can sit back and say "I hate the forces of Death," or "I feel inspired by the Light", and it's all of a sudden extremely useful for a single plot development.

ALL the forces of Azeroth must BAND TOGETHER and take down ZOVAL'ATATH, before they claim AZEROTH once and for all!

That's always been the case with WoW, but lately it's felt so much more hamfisted in. I think the more we see situations like the Arcantina attempting to be a solution to this, it all actually becomes more of a problem.

Darius Crowley and Eitrigg reminiscing on their legacy and asking you to take time to spar with their children while we're in the middle of a cosmic battle (regardless of how evergreen these quests are, as we're in constant cosmic doom) just doesn't work. Now, if it were an Elven Ranger asking you to help spar with his son as he's been dispatched to help stop a void incursion in a nearby village, it'd work a whole lot better because it makes sense contextually.

The issue isn't the storytelling. There's a place for those 100%. The issue is the vehicle. Using named lore characters always diminishes the value in the story they're telling because there's no consistency in the characterization.

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A better example would be something like the Wrathgate, and I consider that to be ground zero for some of the dumbest shit in WoW and it's held up as some amazing paragon of storytelling by the community. Go figure.

I actually think the Wrathgate is a great way to talk about the current story issues, because while it's not an incredibly written plot thread, it's inherently awesome and that's where WoW succeeds.

[Enrif]

People like to tell themselves the writing in wow is bad because it's an MMO, but the writing in wow is bad because it's an MMO with two factions who literally can not change in any negative way at all ever, once joined no one can leave. And no faction can ever actually lose or be destroyed or give up major territory so there's no stakes at all for even the NPCs on our side.

Why did the Scions suffer more at the end of the ARR quest, than the horde did at the end of the siege of orgrimar?

which was also an issue for ESO, and they worked it out nicely: the faction are in a stalemate fight in Cyrodill, but the story doesn't bother with the factions at all. Players can play with any other faction too (outside of PvP).

Thus i propose that the factions as we know get broken down. Narratively that allows new groups to be formed and doesn't hold hostage certain people to certain factions, while allows players to not be hold hostage to that system either.

I mean, when the Alliance of Lordaeron can break down after the second war, so can the current Alliance.

i think we heard that the 4th war barely left any resources for both factions and they are scraping by. I think that was also reiterated in the Arathi Highlands story.

Let that be the reason for the Alliance to break down. The cost is too much for everyone to support the alliance military.

For the horde, sure they are a council now, so let them do council stuff and see that so many recent entries into the horde suffered more, than they benefited from the horde.

Let them fracture, and forge new alliances.

[Santandame]

Silithus? Revamped, with an opening for the coreway in TLT.

Would prefer Silithus be he final patch zone of TLT. The World Soul Saga starts with Silithus/The Sword; it would be most fitting to end with Silithus/The Sword.

With a revamped Silithus, you can also revamp Ungoro and include that in the zone, as well as putting actual content in the overworld version of the Ruins of Ahn’qiraj. You could also have an underground area too for the temple.

Ungoro is tied to Sholozar anyway, which I imagine will play a part in TLT so you can reuse assets from the new Sholozar. With these zones, you have all the major themes & enemies for this era of Warcraft - Titans /w Ungoro, Void/Old Gods /w Ahn’qiraj and the Legion /w the sword.

It’s almost too perfect, so I don’t expect Blizzard to do this.

[Rosstafa]

Would prefer Silithus be he final patch zone of TLT. The World Soul Saga starts with Silithus/The Sword; it would be most fitting to end with Silithus/The Sword.

With a revamped Silithus, you can also revamp Ungoro and include that in the zone, as well as putting actual content in the overworld version of the Ruins of Ahn’qiraj. You could also have an underground area too for the temple.

Ungoro is tied to Sholozar anyway, which I imagine will play a part in TLT so you can reuse assets from the new Sholozar. With these zones, you have all the major themes & enemies for this era of Warcraft - Titans /w Ungoro, Void/Old Gods /w Ahn’qiraj and the Legion /w the sword.

It’s almost too perfect, so I don’t expect Blizzard to do this.

I would LOVE to see Un'goro crater get updated. I love me some dinosaurs. Uldum could also get redone too.

I feel like Silithus has to be redone at some point when the sword gets dealt with. Maybe removing the sword is critical to allow Azeroth to actually be born, and Sargeras is the only one who can do it. It would be cool to convince him that Azeroth is capable of fighting off any corruption - and we've proved that. If we've defeated the other titans by that point, he will be the last titan and will have to let Azeroth become her own thing - free from the titans control. He'll have to trust her like they couldn't. So he pulls the sword out, and we go beneath Azeroth to help wake her up.

[LarryWithTheWeatherReport]

My main question is, what is the story there? How does March lead to Isle of Fangs? Kith'ix? I am sorry but he is just a C'thrax. We've killed so many of them. Is Xal'atath buying time with diversions again?

Kith'ix is probably the strongest of the C'thrax or is the strongest one we've ever faced. Makes sense since Xal'atath would want a C'thrax cause the old god's minions were always way stronger than pure void minions. Like any of the important C'thrax, Myhrax, Zak'vir, Sith'ix, or even Faceless generals like Soggoth the Sitherer etc etc is way above a Dominar in power. So Xal'atath needs some big heavy hitters.

I still believe that Blizzard is showing us Xal'athat gathering the different Cosmic powers from very specific sources for a reason.



I fully agree with you here.

Midnight is not giving me any Legion vibes in relation to the epicness or desesperation of our situation. To be fair, I haven't seen much of the Alpha so I might be wrong.

.

Agreed, I also think she has a secret goal for gathering all the powers. Perhaps she wants enough power for the Dark Heart in order to handle something like Sargeras's Sword or being powerful enough to destroy the World Core etc.

And it makes sense that this won't feel as grand as Legion because the Burning Legion is still the biggest and most powerful threat we ever faced in all of WoW. I think the next one that would feel like a big Legion threat would be in The Last Titan as the Titan orbital drop pod all over Azeroth with some new and never before seen Titanforged.

It would be pretty funny if Ula'Tek ended up being the 'crooked serpent,' or its avatar, perhaps slain long ago but soon to be resurrected.

The crooked serpent eats stars, the prophecy of Renilash mentions the last star fading, and what's more one of the old Argus-related cultists pamphlets mentions the following:



Possibly just referring to Argus, but maybe retrofit to be about the temple Queen Craishae visited in the story, where the 'heart of the world and the eye of heaven meet'?

I dunno, but maybe Sargeras is about to maybe a triumphant comeback or something.

That would be cool if Ula'tek is related to the Crooked Serpent, perhaps Hakkar and that mysterious giant snake in Gun'drak also. These beings have existed since the dawn of time way before the Titans came and aren't consider pure Loas. Y'shaaji the strongest old god could also be one as he always look more different than the others. The old gods with the crooked fucked up serpent are definitely coming back to show all these weak villains from all the past expansions what real power is. With the exception of Sargeras of course since he's still the top dog bad guy in the franchise.

It would be hilarious if we actually team up with Sargeras on TLT. With the threat of the Void Lords gone and his crusade becoming obsolete, he'll help us take down the titans who want to forcibly convert Azeroth. Him pulling out the sword to erase the Pantheon once again

Very possible, if the Titans actually managed to gain their true power/body back than nothing in all of WoW past, present, and future even stands a chance against them as they have the advantage of being world souls. Sargeras is the only one that could give them the beatdown. The other scenario is Sargeras is still full on evil and Azeroth awakens to personally finish him off.

[Xilurm]

The midnight map also shows a problem that we already had in cataclysm and SL: The new zones are just scattered around the world and accessed via portals, making it feel small and unrelated. And we're coming from TWW where the main continent does not feel open and connected as they are very different underground biomes connected via tunnels, and then 2 external portal zones accessed via portals for the patch zones.

I'm getting tired of this.

I can understand for zones like the Voidstorm and Harandar since they are technically on different planes. But when they are actual new continents and there's no boat to them it's lame.