Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Super Dickmann]

Even beyond that it's the way that every character describes things the same way with the same words. The Titans call what they do ordering and proclaim things they like are Ordered, Sylvanas calls it ordering, the haranir call it ordering. Every character always calls this brand new Light-filled rage mode they just made up for Midnight as wrath or being wrathful, they always use the word wrath over and over. It's like their vocabulary is shrinking more and more and every character is reading off a script of cliff notes instead of feeling natural in the slightest

The writers have a word of the day calendar. In Warlords it was savage, in BFA-SL it was hope and fractals. DF had primal and ordering, and ordering's been inflicted on us since then.

That aside, I do appreciate that the Garrosh writer did find something to occupy his time with after they fixed that quest for the most part and took it out on poor Kael next. Another one of these has him being blamed for a police state he wasn't present for and was shut out of the decision-making of as he was on the other planet, lest anyone recalls that it was Bob administering it throughout all of TBC. If the writers had a lick of subtlety in their body, I would argue that's intentional and it's Bob dumping everything on his predecessor, but we all know it's not.

[Cheezits]

That aside, I do appreciate that the Garrosh writer did find something to occupy his time with after they fixed that quest for the most part and took it out on poor Kael next. Another one of these has him being blamed for a police state he wasn't present for and was shut out of the decision-making of as he was on the other planet, lest anyone recalls that it was Bob administering it throughout all of TBC. If the writers had a lick of subtlety in their body, I would argue that's intentional and it's Bob dumping everything on his predecessor, but we all know it's not.

Is the most likely answer that all these TBC-themed quests being incorrect is that nobody on the quest team played the expansion? Would be pretty funny if the reason for all this fuckery is because they signed on to make BRAND NEW STUFF!!! with Danuser, then had to make content for TBC 3.0 and don't know shit about it.

It's still a net win as it's actually Warcraft but it's funny that some quests still have to be guided along by the loreheads.

I'm talking about the lore mess-ups here and not the terrible spelling.

[Super Dickmann]

Is the most likely answer that all these TBC-themed quests being incorrect is that nobody on the quest team played the expansion? Would be pretty funny if the reason for all this fuckery is because they signed on to make BRAND NEW STUFF!!! with Danuser, then had to make content for TBC 3.0 and don't know shit about it.

It's still a net win as it's actually Warcraft but it's funny that some quests still have to be guided along by the loreheads.

The blurbs aren't actually lore-ignorant as such. Blood Elves having a tradition of astromancy is a callback to something that's not touched at all since TBC and is good to come up, a Blood Elf secret police force that got disbanded fits with Bob pardoning and then disbanding the left-over forces from Outland after TBC and so on. Its issue (past not going through spellcheck) is some of the tonality.

Now, if you want ignorant, everything related to Eitrigg and the Dark Horde takes a high mark.

[Nymrohd]

Now, if you want ignorant, everything related to Eitrigg and the Dark Horde takes a high mark.

Eitrigg was a member of the Dark Horde though, that was part of Vanilla. He left after his children got killed

[Super Dickmann]

Eitrigg was a member of the Dark Horde though, that was part of Vanilla. He left after his children got killed

Eitrigg was a member of the Horde, but he didn't serve under Rend after the Second War, as right after the war he immediately disavowed. His kids got killed during an intra-orc struggle during the war itself, at least from what I remember of Blood and Honor. Chronicle also had him quit right after the war.

[Vakir]

WoW has absolutely had prior metal influences, especially with Samwise's art.

I wouldn't say edgy, it's extremely toned down from Warhammer Fantasy and especially 40K despite its attempted pedigree. The darkest you're gonna see is the concept of abominations with very goofy designs, the upside-down sinners, and some of the Horrific Visions environmental storytelling.

That being said, the visions also aren't exactly old and were brought back with no changes.

Even Dragonflight had the description of spears that hooked into dragon scales for maximum damage and outright torture. They cut the Alex quest, but it was in response to negative feedback - it was still written and approved to some extent.

No, I don't think a return to metal and some pulp influences on a surface level will fix things completely. It's still not gonna save whatever the actual fuck those item plaques are. Trying to go back probably wouldn't do anymore as returning to dark fantasy failed to make Diablo 4 any less soulless feeling.

Like the girlboss brigade, it's a symptom of a bigger problem. There's a clear lack of creative direction, a very obvious outcome of AAA games becoming more of a pipeline of product than ever, several contradicting echo chambers fighting over the future of the game, and god only knows what is going on behind the scenes between layoffs and company selling.

That crazy expose that elaborated on the weirdness around Blizzard culture after the initial wave of accusations feels like something similar to what we'll get in 5-10 years about whatever is at work now.

[Nymrohd]

Eitrigg was a member of the Horde, but he didn't serve under Rend after the Second War, as right after the war he immediately disavowed. His kids got killed during an intra-orc struggle during the war itself, at least from what I remember of Blood and Honor. Chronicle also had him quit right after the war.

https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Eitrigg%27s_Wisdom
his sons died securing BRS from the Dark Iron Dwarves while they were working under Rend

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WoW has absolutely had prior metal influences, especially with Samwise's art.

I wouldn't say edgy, it's extremely toned down from Warhammer Fantasy and especially 40K despite its attempted pedigree. The darkest you're gonna see is the concept of abominations with very goofy designs, the upside-down sinners, and some of the Horrific Visions environmental storytelling.

That being said, the visions also aren't exactly old and were brought back with no changes.

Even Dragonflight had the description of spears that hooked into dragon scales for maximum damage and outright torture. They cut the Alex quest, but it was in response to negative feedback - it was still written and approved to some extent.

No, I don't think a return to metal and some pulp influences on a surface level will fix things completely. It's still not gonna save whatever the actual fuck those item plaques are. Trying to go back probably wouldn't do anymore as returning to dark fantasy failed to make Diablo 4 any less soulless feeling.

Like the girlboss brigade, it's a symptom of a bigger problem. There's a clear lack of creative direction, a very obvious outcome of AAA games becoming more of a pipeline of product than ever, several contradicting echo chambers fighting over the future of the game, and god only knows what is going on behind the scenes between layoffs and company selling.

That crazy expose that elaborated on the weirdness around Blizzard culture after the initial wave of accusations feels like something similar to what we'll get in 5-10 years about whatever is at work now.

I mean BfA had plenty of dark shit on both sides with Kul Tirans waterboarding Horde soldiers and ofc Brennadam.

[Sondrelk]

Eitrigg was a member of the Horde, but he didn't serve under Rend after the Second War, as right after the war he immediately disavowed. His kids got killed during an intra-orc struggle during the war itself, at least from what I remember of Blood and Honor. Chronicle also had him quit right after the war.

Intra-orc conflict? But that would retcon the Orcs being horribly looked down upon victims of complete and utter brainwashing that they obviously were completely and utterly against.

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The writers have a word of the day calendar. In Warlords it was savage, in BFA-SL it was hope and fractals. DF had primal and ordering, and ordering's been inflicted on us since then.

That aside, I do appreciate that the Garrosh writer did find something to occupy his time with after they fixed that quest for the most part and took it out on poor Kael next. Another one of these has him being blamed for a police state he wasn't present for and was shut out of the decision-making of as he was on the other planet, lest anyone recalls that it was Bob administering it throughout all of TBC. If the writers had a lick of subtlety in their body, I would argue that's intentional and it's Bob dumping everything on his predecessor, but we all know it's not.

He is just warming up his writing chops for when Sylvanas returns, and we learn that she was actually always trying to prevent the radical elements of Forsaken society from going too far. And that just like the Helm of Domination. She was absolutely critical to this ultimate sacrifice of seeming like the villain all along.

[Vakir]

I mean BfA had plenty of dark shit on both sides with Kul Tirans waterboarding Horde soldiers and ofc Brennadam.

The Blizzcon description of what Drustvar was also pretty intense, even if the actual reality ended up like a Hocus Pocus style PG scary movie.

Honestly, the tonal dissonance between the Alliance and Horde areas was massive and the former of the two most resembled the DF onward time we're in.

But BFA also sucked even though it segued into that kind of stuff. It didn't capture the imagination of the player base even before Sadfang and world peace happened. It resembled a lot of those old aesthetic roots but outside of the opening cinematic, was it really that well regarded as a return to the kinda-edge wanted?

Something is definitely wrong, but it feels like so much of it is behind the scenes rather than any central problem figures.

Like that damn voice direction. They aren't simply "Disney" or "too nice" or some such - they're fucking nothing.

[Sondrelk]

The Blizzcon description of what Drustvar was also pretty intense, even if the actual reality ended up like a Hocus Pocus style PG scary movie.

Honestly, the tonal dissonance between the Alliance and Horde areas was massive and the former of the two most resembled the DF onward time we're in.

But BFA also sucked even though it segued into that kind of stuff. It didn't capture the imagination of the player base even before Sadfang and world peace happened. It resembled a lot of those old aesthetic roots but outside of the opening cinematic, was it really that well regarded as a return to the kinda-edge wanted?

Something is definitely wrong, but it feels like so much of it is behind the scenes rather than any central problem figures.

Like that damn voice direction. They aren't simply "Disney" or "too nice" or some such - they're fucking nothing.

Drustvar is plenty gruesome. It's really just the Horde side that gets the weird Scooby Doo episode. The Alliance side has villagers get turned into sapient pigs that are then slaughtered and made into sausage. That one girl who killed her entire village. Or just generally the large amount of human sacrifice.

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Also cannibal pig man in the dungeon eating enthralled servants.

[Vakir]

Drustvar is plenty gruesome. It's really just the Horde side that gets the weird Scooby Doo episode. The Alliance side has villagers get turned into sapient pigs that are then slaughtered and made into sausage. That one girl who killed her entire village. Or just generally the large amount of human sacrifice.

Also cannibal pig man in the dungeon eating enthralled servants.

But it's all played pretty tamely. The little girl acts like the walkthrough haunted house version of that archetype. The witch trials are almost dark comedy, not ending with a woman reeling after being actually tortured. The actual witches are practically Witch Hazel from Looney Tunes.

It's presentation. Technically DF starts with a bunch of dead babies and someone being slowly murdered desperately trying to save one last survivor of the clutch. But nobody thinks about that because they don't sell it beyond being tame.

[Nymrohd]

But it's all played pretty tamely. The little girl acts like the walkthrough haunted house version of that archetype. The witch trials are almost dark comedy, not ending with a woman reeling after being actually tortured. The actual witches are practically Witch Hazel from Looney Tunes.

It's presentation. Technically DF starts with a bunch of dead babies and someone being slowly murdered desperately trying to save one last survivor of the clutch. But nobody thinks about that because they don't sell it beyond being tame.

With the witch trial I could not help but read it as "We found a witch, may we burn her?"

[Skildar]

I don't have access to beta but does Salandria make an appearance anywhere ? It's not a major or great character in herself but as we see Liadrin and Arator acting as closer to a novice than their respective experience would dictate, it made me wonder.

[Kiivar86]

I don't have access to beta but does Salandria make an appearance anywhere ? It's not a major or great character in herself but as we see Liadrin and Arator acting as closer to a novice than their respective experience would dictate, it made me wonder.

Over at the lore tidbits thread in the lore forum, Aucald posted that you interact with her throughout Eversong, along with Taelia Fordragon. They're investigating the Twilight's Blade cultists.

[Enrif]

I don't have access to beta but does Salandria make an appearance anywhere ? It's not a major or great character in herself but as we see Liadrin and Arator acting as closer to a novice than their respective experience would dictate, it made me wonder.

Yes she shows up. There is a side objective during the Sunwell Intro Quests that has you save her from a ship where she protected a child.

Later in Silvermoon you find her and Taelia together, each starting the quests for horde or alliance to investigate the missing paladins in eversong woods. I have not played much further than that on that storyline yet

[Skildar]

awesome thanks for the answers, I'll checkout the post you mentioned @Kiivar86

[Vakir]

With the witch trial I could not help but read it as "We found a witch, may we burn her?"

Right? Vomit and bloodsucking can be appropriately PG-13 on paper, but those blood flies can literally kill players and she's responding to an unhindered swarm with "oof, that smarts!" like a gag.

[Mecheon]

Hahahaha.

The drake was so much cooler than this classic shit. They just had to say that the High Elves tamed them during Shadowlands, but no. QQ won over style.

Right. So you're saying the High Elves somehow went to the Shadowlands (which. We sure didn't see) and somehow went to Ardenweald (which, they didn't, we only really saw Shandris head over there) and managed to tame the highly respected dragons being used by Ardenweald's forces as anti-air defense against the Gorm, and then managed to also bring them back to our reality (which is explained as a thing that can't really happen what with Azuregos' whole quest) to just do the same job as Dragonhawks

Yeah, nah, I think I'm gonna put a raincheck on that being quite the viable bit of lore there. Dragonhawks make a lot more sense than "Yeah we smuggled the anti-air respected tamed dragons out of the realm of the dead". Lore won over just slapping models anywhere

[Super Dickmann]

https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Eitrigg%27s_Wisdom
his sons died securing BRS from the Dark Iron Dwarves while they were working under Rend

Blizzard kinda forgot about their tie-in book when they wrote this quest. Here, from the legitimate copy of Blood and Honor Putin gave me:

“All orcs are warriors, human,” he said, as if Tirion were a brainless child. “We know little else. Despite my sons’ strength and prowess, they were betrayed by their own leaders. During the last war our clan Chieftains fought amongst themselves over petty rivalries. As one particularly bloody battle concluded, my sons were ordered to pull back from the front lines. One of our Chieftain’s rivals, hoping to advance his clan’s standing within the Horde, countermanded the order and sent my sons and their brethren back to be slaughtered. It was a dark day for our clan. . . .” Eitrigg said, lost in thought. “A dark day for me,” he finished.

This also meshes with Chronicle's timing of him leaving immediately.

Intra-orc conflict? But that would retcon the Orcs being horribly looked down upon victims of complete and utter brainwashing that they obviously were completely and utterly against.

He is just warming up his writing chops for when Sylvanas returns, and we learn that she was actually always trying to prevent the radical elements of Forsaken society from going too far. And that just like the Helm of Domination. She was absolutely critical to this ultimate sacrifice of seeming like the villain all along.

It's ineptitude more than agenda re: Eitrigg, again, the entire sum of his character is to be 'one of the good ones', he exists to be friends with human paladins and acts on this goal. He's a proof of concept more than a person, as Of Blood and Honor is the bones of WC3. Him becoming a Son of Lothar is his ultimate apotheosis as a house zug.

Sylvanas dodged this in her one appearance, but only because the writers don't consider this related and the Forsaken as a whole only appear in the zone they were previously deuteragonists of as dungeon fodder and senile hangers-on, lest we lose sight of Anduin Arator and feature a dirty zombie in our adventure.

[Nymrohd]

Blizzard kinda forgot about their tie-in book when they wrote this quest. Here, from the legitimate copy of Blood and Honor Putin gave me:



This also meshes with Chronicle's timing of him leaving immediately.

Oh well I guess we have an actual Retcon there. I will say, I would not have minded if Eitrigg stayed as he was introduced in the comic; as Danath's plus one. But the fact that he got the title and he gets agency to speak for the Sons in certain moments of the quest was just plain stupid. Not as stupid as Arator saying that the Sons of Lothar and the Dark Horde are stuck in the Second War when the former have fully moved on but at least Arator's journey is a questline I can stomache on account of Faol being his handler and constantly talking sense (Even though most of said sense flies over him). And having now done these quests in beta I don't see how Turalyon would ever get villain batted given the level of instant remorse he has for hitting his moron son when he was about to kill the 12.1 raid boss. He will probably pick up a shield and die protecting a lot of people and back when Blizzard had a budget, he'd get a cool sad human cinematic for his sacrifice. But now he'll get an in game one at best.

Also love how Faol's actual message is "You know you can spec Protection or Holy right? You don't have to only play Retribution"

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Btw Harandar is gorgeous but is anyone else having serious issues with orientation there? It lacks strong landmarks and makes it hard for me to tell where I am at any moment. Plus the skybox is too damn busy; it makes sense and it looks cool but it doesn't help me figure out where I am.

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The Amani are the best part of this expac from what I've seen so far. Jarra and Jan got solid voice acting (though the idea of naming a male troll Jan is crazy to me. Also every time he brags about how the Amani can make it on their own, I keep telling him "Sure Jan" and he doesn't get it). I just can't help but think how much better the zone would be if Talan'ji or Rata (who is by the Sunwell already), Rokhan, Bwemba, Vanira or even Zen'tabra was Jarra's hash ura instead of Liadrin. That said, Liadrin manages to have Arator's character without being grating about it.