Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Ersula]

Is it ever addressed why the loa didn't support Zul'jin in the existential war for his race when they did in the Troll Wars, or are him and Malacrass firmly in Snidely Whiplash territory?

What we saw in TBC Zul'aman was the result of the Amani effectively trying to steal the powers of their Loa. I always assumed these sort of practices started a good time before then.

[Super Dickmann]

I cannot say, the lag is crazy, I am just doing the main quests. It might be there on a side quest or a lore item. Seems like they mostly did it for power. It's not like the elves were pressing the borders further east or anything though, that much we do know.

The thing with this entire (dumb) plotline, is that the only reason it exists in a meta sense is that Zul'jin obviously had as valid a reason as any player race to wage the war he did, and had one of the iconic cinematics in WoW after a showing in WC2, yet died to redneck meme characters in the MMO. Throwing him under the bus for the sake of his progeny who only exist because of him is itself a problem, even notwithstanding that the loa really should be defending their followers (who canonically worship them in both ZA and BFA).

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What we saw in TBC Zul'aman was the result of the Amani effectively trying to steal the powers of their Loa. I always assumed these sort of practices started a good time before then.

See above.

[Cheezits]

Funny how different the reaction to Haranir would be if they just replaced every single utterance of "Haranir" with "Dark Troll".

[Nymrohd]

The thing with this entire (dumb) plotline, is that the only reason it exists in a meta sense is that Zul'jin obviously had as valid a reason as any player race to wage the war he did, and had one of the iconic cinematics in WoW after a showing in WC2, yet died to redneck meme characters in the MMO. Throwing him under the bus for the sake of his progeny who only exist because of him is itself a problem, even notwithstanding that the loa really should be defending their followers (who canonically worship them in both ZA and BFA).

At the same time it could be that the Loa were willing to assist the Amani on a defensive war but where not willing to challenge borders that had existed for centuries. The elves were not venturing beyond Bandinoriel, Zul'jin was the one who wanted to change the status quo and was then so enraged he was willing to do anything to get his revenge. It is a case similar to Illidan when he was willing to sacrifice everyone else so he could be the hero of the Amani (instead of giving them a good life in the existing borders). This makes him a villain.

[Cheezits]

how the haranir are actually the chosen and most important race ever

Did you play the beta? Because the zone storyline gets into how they found out that Aln'hara/Azeroth was gone, and they had only heard an echo- so their entire journey to Harandar was pointless. in fact they went insane and started killing each other until someone kept the peace, so all their "rules" keeping them underground are just cope to keep them sane

They aren't the chosen ones, they just are Dark Trolls that prefer Azeroth to Elune (and paid the price for it with isolation).

[Nymrohd]

Harandar and the haranir in general are impossible for me to make sense of. On the one hand it's like every bad habit of SL lore supercharged into one zone and race. It feels like a completely different universe and setting and all mentions to existing lore and races are met with sneering and disdain and how the haranir are actually the chosen and most important race ever

On the other hand it's hard to believe the writers don't realize how useless and incompetent the haranir come off as. They spend all their time writing stories about their own self-importance but nothing they do actually matters to anything the player cares about (Azeroth itself). They can't solve any crisis that comes up on their own. When Teldrassil burned the rootwarden assigned to it wasn't even there and had to be told by other people it was burning. The other writing around them is also so half-assed it feels like a parody like humans and orcs in Elwynn and Ashenvale are now just being randomly teleported into Harandar with no explanation and that's the excuse for why they join the factions

It's the kind of thing where if the writers had earned a shred of benefit of the doubt and didn't constantly showcase how incompetent and lazy they were I could understand it as portraying how deeply flawed they are but instead it's almost easier to view it as the writers doing an unintentional parody of themselves and how they address existing lore

See, they aren't really the true chosen. They are just delusional. Their elders are simply delusional, that's the entire point of their culture. They literally cannot see the forest for the trees (the roots in their case). Like, imagine who they acted back when Fandral started planting great trees left and right.

[Super Dickmann]

At the same time it could be that the Loa were willing to assist the Amani on a defensive war but where not willing to challenge borders that had existed for centuries. The elves were not venturing beyond Bandinoriel, Zul'jin was the one who wanted to change the status quo and was then so enraged he was willing to do anything to get his revenge. It is a case similar to Illidan when he was willing to sacrifice everyone else so he could be the hero of the Amani (instead of giving them a good life in the existing borders). This makes him a villain.

The Amani status quo, in Zul'jin's eyes (and in the eyes of trolls in general, per the Darkspear in WC3 and WoW) was untenable. The Loa in general did not exist in Eversong as objects of faith and the Farstriders were waging at the very least skirmishes with the Amani if not outright incursions into their land. They did fight on the side of the trolls in the Troll Wars. Why not now? Zul'jin is not acting out of some deranged expansionism, he's waging his side of an existential war. In a meta sense, this is recognized, this is why this story exists. If this wasn't acknowledged, the Amani would be quest mobs.

[Nymrohd]

The Amani status quo, in Zul'jin's eyes (and in the eyes of trolls in general, per the Darkspear in WC3 and WoW) was untenable. The Loa in general did not exist in Eversong as objects of faith and the Farstriders were waging at the very least skirmishes with the Amani if not outright incursions into their land. They did fight on the side of the trolls in the Troll Wars. Why not now? Zul'jin is not acting out of some deranged expansionism, he's waging his side of an existential war. In a meta sense, this is recognized, this is why this story exists. If this wasn't acknowledged, the Amani would be quest mobs.

And every time they cross the Amani pass they DO become quest mobs.

People compare the High Elves to colonizers or invades. They were neither. They were refugees. People expect grace for the Warsong because they could not know that those woods belonged to the Night Elves and those trees housed their wisps because they also were refugees and the Night Elves killed first and expected to not face resistance (though they lose my sympathy when they drink the fel cool-aid as soon as the battle turns against them). Heck people keep telling me here how the original Alliance should have granted land to the orcs instead of putting them in camps. Why are the High Elves never afforded the same sympathy?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Funny how different the reaction to Haranir would be if they just replaced every single utterance of "Haranir" with "Dark Troll".

It’s such a simple thing to do but blizzard is just professional ball droppers and have to added things like this up for no reason.

[Cheezits]

It’s such a simple thing to do but blizzard is just professional ball droppers and have to added things like this up for no reason.

I mean it makes sense that they don't consider themselves trolls, because it has been so long, and it also chalks up their lore of hiding the surface stuff from newer generations. But it would definitely shut a lot of people up.

A lot of the critiques on them are just salt that it isn't an old race (understandable), their taking away customization from old races (understandable but you can't sell barbershop options) and on their "vibes" (dumb). But they are essentially just a new take on Dark Trolls the way Female Amani in Midnight are a new take on Amani.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I mean it makes sense that they don't consider themselves trolls, because it has been so long, and it also chalks up their lore of hiding the surface stuff from newer generations. But it would definitely shut a lot of people up.

In universe ya it makes sense, but out of universe it seems like every thing about them was made to piss some one off and its baffling this ever got through first draft.

Like,

Protector of world trees a night elf thing, but never protects them

Azeroth/earth mother focus instead of giving it to cows

“Lesser trolls” and playing around with them may or may not predating trolls

[Merryck]

Christie Golden is doing a Reddit AMA.

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...so_excited_to/

[COBRAstriker]

@Vakir

Nah, I am not oversimplifying anything. Blizzard has hiring quotas and you can very much see that in action. The WoW team is bigger than its ever been, they're also unionized and supposedly all the workplace toxicity is gone, Big Bad Bobby included. Yet their output and consistency are atrocious. Every patch is riddled with bugs and pretty much every new story, character or cinematic is a dud

The big feature of Midnight is housing, which is being developed by the Boston studio they bought not too long ago. Imagine if they hadn't bought it, what would Midnight even ship with? Tons of bugs, lore inaccuracies, 3rd grade spellling errors. Now also imagine if this game didn't have PTRs or alpha/beta cycles for its expansions. Imagine how would things ship. The community is paying with their money and time to fix their garbage. It's genuinely making me sick just thinking about it and how unfair this community is being treated considering how much they avoid fanservice. Not to mention the aggressive monetization

As for Haranir and Harandar existing, Stickney used to write fanfics for this WoW fansite, Blizzplanet. Now she's the senior narrative designer on WoW, writing fanfics. That's all you need to know about WoW's writing and who gets to write for WoW

[KOREAN DAVE]

The Amani status quo, in Zul'jin's eyes (and in the eyes of trolls in general, per the Darkspear in WC3 and WoW) was untenable. The Loa in general did not exist in Eversong as objects of faith and the Farstriders were waging at the very least skirmishes with the Amani if not outright incursions into their land. They did fight on the side of the trolls in the Troll Wars. Why not now? Zul'jin is not acting out of some deranged expansionism, he's waging his side of an existential war. In a meta sense, this is recognized, this is why this story exists. If this wasn't acknowledged, the Amani would be quest mobs.

They should be quest mobs. I'll all for genociding the Amani. Best part of BC and Cataclysm.

[Cheezits]

There's still something "wrong" under Vordrassil (in Northrend), and it's the reason that it doesn't appear in Harandar.



Yogg comeback incoming? Or maybe Iridikron related?

[COBRAstriker]

They should be quest mobs. I'll all for genociding the Amani. Best part of BC and Cataclysm.

With the overly sensitive, bluesky audience Blizzard has cultivated in these last couple of years, it's not happening. Not to say that the writers would do that without, as they're also part of the bluesky hugbox. Even liking someone like Garrosh causes these people to drop labels on you. As if it's something wrong with liking a fictional bad guy in a make believe world. I wonder if they do the same to anyone who likes characters like the Joker. Bunch of nutcases man

[Joszef Kiprich]

Yeah, its back. This will be entertaining.

/s

[JohnnyCasual]

I'll say it again, most of Arator's experience seems to be that of a Retribution paladin who is told that if he wants to find a group faster, maybe he can try Prot or Holy and he is surprised to learn there are other specs

As a basic bitch ret pally who has never tried prot or holy, I am F'ing rolling over here. Thank you for this, its wonderful to finally have representation.

[Vakir]

@COBRAstriker

Really? You're not oversimplifying anything, but to demonstrate that, you're going to ignore everything pointed out and bring up a bunch of unrelated nonsense?

"Imagine if they hadn't bought the Boston studio and if there were no PTRs and alpha/beta cycles" is a bizarre ask. Yes, I'm sure things would be tangibly much worse if a bunch of hypothetical stuff didn't happen that created more objective problems. Just like I'm sure things would be better if AAA studios weren't in perpetual crunch and using AI slop - but they aren't. Big company games are mostly in freefall. You can blame greed and the bloating budget direction of the industry, or you can keep blaming diversity hires like every other Mark Kern hanger-on.

Dave Kosack also wrote fan-fiction. That's what the Flintlocke comics were. They were pretty good. So was Mists!

Almost every single writer that isn't Chris Metzen or any other old guard at some point wrote or at least had in their mind's eye some variation of fan-fiction for WoW if they had any general interest in WoW, because there is a fair likelihood they were once fans. This is how long term franchises generally go. Part of the worst Simpsons schlock was because it was written by a bunch of fans who didn't comprehend what made it good in the first place. When Star Trek isn't chucking things out the window by people who don't give a damn, the alternative is fan creators clinging to nostalgia bait retirees from the early 90s.

That being said, the alternative is people who get involved in franchises who don't give a shit about it a la The Witcher adaptation who are involved in it because franchises are seen as the only "safe" bet for work and material and some writers never wanted to do anything with them in the first place. This is the modern marketplace where almost everything has to be established IP. Things like Expedition 33 are exceptions.

No one is arguing against the drop in quality, but blaming diversity hires is absolutely asinine when quotas along those lines were already very present in a tech California based company, already known for their progressive policies. Stuff like Better ABK was about crap happening once already in the office, not hiring. The actual bullet points were things like no forced arbitration with harassment causes or wage/benefits crap.

It doesn't matter how many minorities and/or women you want to whine about - anyone working in a huge collaboration like a billion dollar franchise like Warcraft is going to still be accountable to leadership in terms of coherence.

It sucks from the bottom to the top. But the Arathi quest was - to reiterate - written by a dude. We know the actual voice talent is capable of good reads, so are the voice directors clearly responsible for poor reads on the Silvermoon NPCs DEI hires too? Are they in the room with us right now?

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As a basic bitch ret pally who has never tried prot or holy, I am F'ing rolling over here. Thank you for this, its wonderful to finally have representation.

Arator never even opened his talent pane, apparently. It's kind of wild to consider.

[LarryWithTheWeatherReport]

There's still something "wrong" under Vordrassil (in Northrend), and it's the reason that it doesn't appear in Harandar.



Yogg comeback incoming? Or maybe Iridikron related?

Hype for Yogg Saron the god of death being back.

We still need to explore the full horror underneath Northrend with Yogg Saron and his faceless terrors maybe face a few Forgotten Ones too.

Wanted to see more of that since the campaign from the Frozen Throne. There’s one dungeon of them in Wrath but that definitely didn’t do it justice as the great depths needs to be a whole zone.

Introduce some new horrors and resurrect Yogg. He’s the second strongest old god and in his prime, he’s already more powerful than every final boss we ever fought in WoW and even Xal’atath with the Dark Heart or Dragon Prime Iridikron needs to think twice before trying to go down there and fight him in The Last Titan.